Reflections on Breeding.

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

At first, I thought of breeding my German Shepherd Dog. Her markings are really very nice, she has a good disposition, and while she isn't show quality, she's a good pet. Later I decided that, given her apparent food allergies (my decision may be subject to change pending her final diagnosis and thorough genetic research), I wanted to start with a really high-quality GSD without sickness of any kind, good markings, and without some of the flaws that make her unsuitable for show.

But before I reached the decision to acquire more show-worthy animals, two vets (one of which has a financial relationship with the store that sold me my dog ) and an animal shelter worker became very vocal against people wanting to breed. They feel there are too many dogs already in shelters being euthanized.

Certainly, it must be very hard to see dogs euthanized and realize there are many out there who still want to breed. But here's why I feel knowledgable, responsible breeders deserve support:

Most dogs are in the shelter because they are not wanted. Sometimes this is because of behavioral problems, or because of an accidental litter where homes were not available for the new arrivals, or because the dogs are sick and the owners cannot afford to care for them.

1. All of these problems are solved by breeding. People who deliberately breed animals create lines of dogs proven to have good temperament. This is a deliberate step in helping to assure successful adoption, and a big step in keeping dogs out of the shelters.

2. Breeders seek to improve the breed all around. Not only in temperament, but in health and appearance. Health is another means of keeping dogs out of the shelters and from being euthanized. And certainly people consider appearance when deciding on whether or not to adopt a dog. Purebreds are valued for their predictability, their history, and their cultural value.

3. Breeders wait until they have a waiting list before breeding, so the dogs do not come into the world without waiting homes. Respomnsible breeders always take back dogs that, for whatever reason, the new owners have decided not to keep.

But in the meantime, shelters are filled with dogs that were not deliberately bred for temperament, health or appearance, and are not wanted because of the very flaws breeding seeks to prevent. Moreover, to stop creating purebreds that allow people to choose what kind of temperament and use they want for the dog, in order to accomodate an unsuccessful behavioral/health gamble, isn't the solution.

I think breeders who produce quality lines of healthy animals and conduct their businesses with ethics and responsibility are the solution to the shelters full of unwanted animals. I think the solution to euthanized dogs is to do what we can to prevent the accidents, not discourage people from breeding a well-crafted line of gentle, healthy, desirable dogs.

 

[alwayz_remember_Calvery]

I must say i agree to most of this.
I've worked at a vet clinic for the past few years as an after school job and i must say a few of my pet peeves are: when people bring in a 2 year old dog that is very hyper and decide to breed her. That high strung hyperness is going to be passed on the puppies. I personally think the reason some breeds are like this is because of stupid people breeding them. The other, is when people breed dogs just because they have an intact female, it doesn't matter if she's registered or not.
I believe that you should only breed registered dogs of high quality and the purpose should be to improve the breed. I think people need to look at there dog and only breed it with another that improves on the dogs good qualities and helps neutralize there not so good.
One last thing. I don't think line-breeding is always the answer. We have a guy come in with beautiful show-quality dogs. The only problem is, he line breeds so much, that the puppies tend to have a lot of problems. He has one dog that has had diarrhea since the time she was born, none of his puppies can be given there distemper combo vaccine with the rabies because there system can't handle it. I don't see the point in owning a dog like this.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

I agree: if this guy is a pro he shouldn't be inbreeding at all. That will create problems. What kind of dog does he have? Apparently large breeds have more problems with their digestive systems while in their puupy stages, but many eventually outgrow it.

 

[savvy]

I don't see a problem with responsible breeding. Responsible being the key word. There are so many people out there breeding unhealthy animals...and puppy mills don't care a bit what types of animals they are introducing into the lines. It's a scary thought.
I see what your vets are trying to say, though. There are a lot of animals in shelters needing homes, so sometimes it seems like we should be trying to get them families instead of creating more puppies. The next dog I get will probably be from a shelter, because I just feel so bad for them.
However, I think purebred dogs are good to have simply because you know what you are getting into with them. For a lot of people, that is necessary.

But I love German Shepherds! There are so many problems in the lines now, though. My poor doggy had a genetic neurological disorder later in life and had to be euthanized. So be careful when you pick dogs to use.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Yes-good point. It is important to do the genetic research before getting started. Very important. I'm really sorry about your GSD.

 

[alwayz_remember_Calvery]

He breeds Min. schnauzers.

I'm not sure if i want to get my next dog from a responsible breeder, or a shelter. There are pros and cons to both. My biggest problem with a shelter is the dog that i have now i got from a shelter. A few days after wer brought him home he started coughing, one of the vets looked at him and she decided he had probably gotten kennel cough at the shelter. We had a few more dogs with kennel cough come into the office from that shelter, so the vet called the lady and told her that she has the kennel cough virus in her shelter and she should stop taking in new dogs until she gets it cleared out, the vet gave the lady instuctions on how to do it, but the lady didn't want to. After this, i'm a little hesitant to get a dog from a shelter.
Plus, if you get a dog from a responsible breeder, you get to see the parents, you can interact with the parents, you get a good idea what sort of dog you're going to have. With a shelter/rescue, you can't be to sure.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Exactly. Those are really good points. I thought of getting a dog at a chelter, too. I tossed the idea around for a while, but then I always cameback to the question about why the dogs were there in the first place and I just really felt more comfortable. I got this dog at a store, but next time I'm going to a breeder directly. Especially if I plan to breed what I get.

 

[BubblesRelena]

I know that we breed our pomeranions. The father (FOXY)to all of the litters is a full blooded (son of a show dog), royal line (very pricey) pedagree. The mother (DINKY) doesn't have papers but is full blooded (wow, the cost would go up sooo much more if she had papers). But now we're going to switch and go through Lady, (Foxy and dinky's baby that we kept), and we're looking for a male pom to adopt. (Lady is white). Usually people wont give their dogs up to the pound or shelter or anything if the dogs are full blooded and pricey to begin with. they evenmoreso wont give the dog up if it's papered. Having papers is like having an investment. So if you're thinking about breeding, and your dog is full blooded, make sure you find a very good mate for the dog. Look at color, family history, and health. It's also more to tell the people who are looking to buy the puppies. I mean, we wont be breeding again untill a little over a year, and already we have three people on the waiting list for a pomeranion puppy. If you're thinking of a career in dog breeding, it could make you some very good money. If you know what to do.

~BubblesRelena

 

[alwayz_remember_Calvery]

BubblesRelena-please don't take this the wrong way. It isn't directed at you.

I think that if an animal isn't registered, it shouldn't be bred. If an animal isn't built a close to the breed standard as possible, it shouldn't be bred. If an animal has a lot of small flaws or a few huge ones, it shouldn't be bred. I think any person who is thinking about breeding an animal should seriously think about WHY they're doing it. If they're doing it for money, thats a bad reason; if they're doing it because they have a female dog and there neighbor has a male dog, thats a bad idea; if they're doing it because they like puppies, thats a bad idea. There are way to many animals in shelters and rescues to conitinue to breed less then top-quality animals.

 

[LegacyOfLove]

I have just read this thread and wanted to make a few comments of my own here.
I own three golden retrievers and they are all my babies! They are indoor dogs (yes, they get to go outside and get plenty of exercise), but they are family members...not kennel-dogs. I have bred my male to one of the females twice now. I did a lot of research and worked closely with my veterinarian before embarking on breeding my dogs. They are AKC registered and are very good quality dogs. My third golden, who I have not bred yet (due to her not being old enough) is AKC also and from a long line of champion show dogs. All of my dogs have to be in excellent health, have a great disposition, be appropriately fed/groomed/cared for, highly socialized, etc. And while there CAN be some money from breeding....that cannot be a main reason for breeding...because often times those who do it for the money are not being responsible (after all their focus is the money). There are so many things that go into maintaining a quality pet who can be used for breeding...and there can even be unexpected difficulties in the birthing of the puppies. You must have money to be able to properly care for your dogs. Good breeders offer health guarantees on their puppies and they follow-up with the new puppy owners to make sure that everything is going well for them and the new puppy.

I would advise anyone who is interested in breeding their dog(s) to go to the AKC's website. They offer so much insight into breeding and how to make sure that your dogs are suitable for breeding. They also discuss the different kinds of breeders out there and warn people away from breeders who are "just in it for the money" or who are uneducated about their breed's specific health problems and so forth. (After all, there is nothing more sad than when people breed irresponsibly and produce puppies with genetic problems, aggressive temperaments, etc....because these puppies often end up in the shelters when their new owners discover that they can't afford to treat their health conditions or can't manage their poor behavior/aggressiveness).

***Please note: This post was NOT meant as a put-down to anyone who breeds or who would like to breed. I only posted on this thread as food for thought and to let others know that purposeful breeding can be a wonderful thing, but that you really need to be responsible in doing so.***

 

[JesusRox]

First off, I want to say 3 of my dogs are purebred. One is a German Shepherd and the other two Jack Russells. I got my German Shepherd and one of my Jack Russells from a shelter. My German Shepherd has had great health and the Jack Russell pretty good health. My other Jack Russell was brought from a breeder, puppy mill-like from what I understand and her health has been the worst of all of my dogs.

Also, I think you need to realize people are the cause of a lot of behavoiral problems. I think sick dogs deserve a life too. I took in a dog who needed pills to live. Should she not have a chance because she needed medicine? Should those puppies not have a chance at life because of the irresponsible human?

I don't discourage people from getting shelter dogs at all, or from responsible breeders. I can just look in the paper and spot out bad breeders...I mean some can't even spell dogs names right. High price doesn't always mean a good dog either. Breeding does keep breeds good, but only the breeding of excellent animals.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Hi, JR. Thanks for your reply. I have no doubt there are some good shelter dogs and I applaud you for taking one in.

My only concern is the argument that because these dogs exist, people shouldn't breed anymore. I think that's throwing out the baby with the bath water, but you're right, too, that all breeders are not alike. There are some irresponsible ones that don't care about the animals or those who will purchase them.

 

[LegacyOfLove]

JesusRox, That is wonderful that you took in a "special needs" dog and gave it a good home! I just want to make sure that you understand, I never ever have thought that a special needs dog doesn't deserve a chance at life! I think every animal deserves that chance!! It is just sad that *some* people don't care about their animals enough to give it that chance...and some of them even breed those ill animals. Yes, those babies deserve the best life possible! I just don't think that's very wise of someone to breed an *ill* (meaning one they KNOW will have genetic or serious health issues) animal at all!

And Whitehorse, I agree with your point too...that saying "no breeding" because of *some* breeders irresponsibility is being too harsh overall! What strikes me as funny (strange) sometimes is that for centuries all over the world, people (farmers) have made their living by buying and selling livestock. Nobody thinks twice about that being a dishonorable thing! But, just as for a farmer...anyone who breeds ANY animal should really put their heart into it and make sure that they are being responsible and doing all that they can to ensure healthy offspring from the animals they bred.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Absolutely.

 

[encouraging_angels1]

I don't believe the bloodlines are important because you may have great bloodlines, but the dogs temperment may be allful eg some buill terriers are like this!. So i think it temperment, behaviour and make sure the partner is a genel fellow with no arthritis or hip displasure problems same iwth mother to be or eye or spinal problems.

 

[alwayz_remember_Calvery]

encouraging_angels-i'm going to have to respectfully disagree with that. I believe bloodlines are VERY important, but I don't think dogs should be bred just because they have awesome bloodlines.
I think if a person wants to breed there animal they need to make sure a few things
1. the animal has perfect bloodlines for what you want the puppies to do. Example, if you want puppies that will hunt, make sure your dog's bloodlines show that it can hunt and you dog has proven that it can hunt.
2. The animal has to have near perfect build (according to breed standards). I understand that every animal has its flaws, but to be bred the animal should come as close to breed standards as possible
3. It has to have a wonderful, stable temperment. I don't care how good of a show dog the dog is if its unpredictable.
If the animal doesn't meet every single on of there requirements, it shouldn't be bred. Period.
If you breed a dog with ho, hum bloodlines you'll probably get a litter of ho hum puppies. If you breed a dog with awesome bloodlines, you're going to get a litter of awesome puppies. No matter what anyone says, bloodlines DO matter.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Right, and I think it depends, too, as you mentioned, what the purpose of the dog is. A cute, healthy, well-behaved dog makes a great pet. Now, it may not be show quality, but it will make an affordable purebred for the common person who just wants a dog with x qualities. Loyal, perhaps. Or small, or low-key, or able to hunt or work in a service capacity. But I believe very much that every litter should improve on the breed and bring it closer to AKC standards. And if the dog will be for show, the breeder should start with the very best dogs s/he can afford.

 

[JesusRox]

I don't agree with those who say people shouldn't breed because there's so many unwanted animals out there. IT IS a sad thing, and I know I'm pretty much just interested in unwanted dogs, but I know some people want to know the health of their dog or want it for a reason. I love GSDs and I'd rather get on from a shelter and not know it's background then buy from a breeder. If they needed surgery for hip dysplasia or whatever I'd rather help them out. Now what I really dislike it those people who look down on dogs because they're not purebred or don't have the right markings, like they're something unworthy.