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Redefining The Open Mind

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Verv

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The concept of being open minded or closed minded ought to be used in a better way.

Traditionally in the West, due to the way things were decades ago, an open minded person is generally someone who thinks outside of the box of the very prevalent 1950s mindset of God & Country.

However, it was not always that way...

Our vision of 1950s values have come under fire many times before.

Leftist political movements and atheist movements were prevalent in the 19th and early 20th centuries; the end of the 18th century; atheist and homosexual movements in the 17th and 15th centuries, the 11th century in the Arab world;

Economically and socially, the 4th century BC in the Chinese world saw Hsu Hsi develop a proto-Communist revolution; the 9th century saw Babik al-Khurrani develop a similar communistic movement in n. Iran/Azerbaijan; the 5th century saw modern day Iraq and Iran fall under sway of the prophet Mazdak which envisioned total sexual liberty and communistic values; there were other movements within the early period of Islam such as Surkh Alam which were proponents of a sort of Islamo-Communism.

Values embraced in some Kazakh rebellions (names escaping me) and the Hungarian peasant rebellion under Gyorgy Dozsa can be similarly noted.

There was a point in time even when the Buddhists were the conservative, old vanguard and the Confucianists were the forward thinkers (the foundation of the Chosun dynasty in 14th century Korea came about after the Mongol invasions and the necessity for cultural change, which then went on to repress dissenting thought until the very end, crushing Taoist influenced rebellions).

The concept that liberalism is a modern development and is the first rebellion against 'conservative' thought is generally absurd. The idea that they have a monopoly on the title of 'open mindedness' is laughable. The idea that history is progressing towards a final conclusion is outlandish and unfounded.

Humans have been undergoing the competing influences of the 'conservative' and the 'liberal,' the 'orthodox' and 'unorthodox' until what was once radical becomes mundane and what was once mundane becomes the new radicalism.

The idea of conservative and liberal only make sense if you think inside of the box labeled 'present time.'

The view that we are progressing further and further towards left wing utopianism and that those who oppose it are 'closed minded' is laughable.

In fact, the idea of an open mind versus a closed mind has far more to do with your personal origins than with the political trends of a time.

David Horowitz, controversial conservative columnist, was raised as an atheist Communist and spent a long period as such -- to someone who was constantly under the influence of left wing thought, the idea of being open minded was in thinking outside of what he knew.

We have made the mistake of putting people into boxes.

Not every conservative Christian was raised a conservative Christian, and not every liberal atheist was raised as such nor did they all spurn conservative Christianity and thus become 'open minded.'

The left has monopolized the term 'open mindedness.'

Open mindedness should be about thinking outside of whatever box you were given.

To be open minded you must consider all possibilities. Even the ones that you have been told not to consider.

For an American conservative Christian this means considering atheism; for a typical Chinese this means pondering the idea that there could be supernatural forces at work in the universe, considering that Christianity could be true.

Everything can be pondered from 360 degrees, not just two opposing points of 180 degrees.
 
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ragarth

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I disagree, though it may be a disagreement of perspective, I see no information provided to show that yours argument is nothing more than an argument from perspective as well. You provide historical fact showing that the conservative vs liberal debate has flowed many times throughout the years, and I agree partially with your definition of open mindedness.

However, from where I stand, Creationists and believers in supernatural/magic/pseudoscience have taken over the term 'open mindedness' It's not the purview of only liberals to use this term, but mainly of those who seem to believe gobbledygook. I've seen conservatives and liberals believing in pseudoknowledge abuse this term, and others use it far less frequently due to this association between the term and believing aliens are sticking probes up people's bums.
 
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ReverendDG

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i don't think liberals have a "monopoly" on "open-mindedness" per se, like ragarth i believe that people tend to use having an "open-mind" to mean different things.

after reading a few websites that deal with aliens and consperacy theories, i've come to the conclusion that "open-mind" is code word for "believe all the stuff i tell you, no matter how crazy it is"
if you don't do this you are close-minded and what they call a "psuedo-sceptic"

as for politics, depending on who you are talking to "open-mind" means both "accept what i'm telling you, even though it seems crazy at this time" plus "don't try to think on your own, its not good for you" or "if you think this stuff is not whats best then you are killing kittens"

the second part is for conservitives and the third is liberals in my mind.
but they are interchangable with number one
 
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sidnee

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Open mindedness is "in".
Its the popular view of the moment.
I like the idea of looking at things from all perspectives but I loathe the media idea that being open minded means that if we dont agree with "so and so's" perspective then we are kitty killers :)P).
Being open minded doesnt mean you have to be a sucker. It means you think for yourself, and come to your own conclusions...which is healthy, Imo.
 
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jayem

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I'd say the same as other posters, though I'd emphasize that true open mindedness means not just considering other opinions, but being willing to change yours--even if long held and strongly internalized. That can be very difficult for anyone. Especially regarding fundamental world-views, in which most of us tend to be heavily invested.

I'll add one more point. The tool we use to evaluate different world-views and philosophies should be as objective as possible. We should evaluate a religious belief based on how closely it conforms to what we actually know about the world and what have been the observable consequences of holding such a belief. We should judge it as much as we can on objective evidence--its good, its bad, its successes, and its failures. And NOT on subjective criteria such as how it makes us feel inside. By the fruits, you shall know it. I agree with this 100%. OK, this too is an opinion, but until I see evidence to the contrary, I think this is the best standard to use.
 
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Wyzaard

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The left has monopolized the term 'open mindedness.'

I have not seen any indication of such claims. Tolerance perhaps, but open-mindedness? That's pretty vague.

To be open minded you must consider all possibilities.

Ummm... no. Some possibilities aren't very fruitful, and shouldn't be considered such out of some vague dedication to being "open-minded"

For an American conservative Christian this means considering atheism; for a typical Chinese this means pondering the idea that there could be supernatural forces at work in the universe, considering that Christianity could be true.

Most Chinese people believe in some form of supernatural agency... and I'm not sure if American conservative Christians do consider Atheism on it's own merits.

Care to provide some examples?
 
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Verv

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I disagree, though it may be a disagreement of perspective, I see no information provided to show that yours argument is nothing more than an argument from perspective as well. You provide historical fact showing that the conservative vs liberal debate has flowed many times throughout the years, and I agree partially with your definition of open mindedness.

However, from where I stand, Creationists and believers in supernatural/magic/pseudoscience have taken over the term 'open mindedness' It's not the purview of only liberals to use this term, but mainly of those who seem to believe gobbledygook. I've seen conservatives and liberals believing in pseudoknowledge abuse this term, and others use it far less frequently due to this association between the term and believing aliens are sticking probes up people's bums.

I have read a few things concerning creationism that have made me a bit more willing to accept some of the ideas out of this corner but overall I am undecided... Mostly because I am uninterested in science as a whole.

Open mindedness is "in".
Its the popular view of the moment.
I like the idea of looking at things from all perspectives but I loathe the media idea that being open minded means that if we dont agree with "so and so's" perspective then we are kitty killers :)P).
Being open minded doesnt mean you have to be a sucker. It means you think for yourself, and come to your own conclusions...which is healthy, Imo.

Exactly.

I have not seen any indication of such claims. Tolerance perhaps, but open-mindedness? That's pretty vague.

People portray the conservative Christian viewpoint as closed minded... Have you noticed this?

Ummm... no. Some possibilities aren't very fruitful, and shouldn't be considered such out of some vague dedication to being "open-minded"

I can agree that perhaps it is not a good idea to ponder becoming a serial killer. However, it would only be fair to try to evaluate all things.

For instance, if you were to read Mussolini's Doctrine Of Fascism you would be more educated on what fascism really means to him, and you would learn some very interesting things. I recommend it.


Most Chinese people believe in some form of supernatural agency... and I'm not sure if American conservative Christians do consider Atheism on it's own merits.

Care to provide some examples?

I've met a few Chinese who pay lip service to Buddhism but the majority that I know are overwhelmingly atheist to the point of openly laughing at my prayers before meals.

I considered atheism at a few different points in my life (age 13-14 and age 20 or so).

I recently considered adopting some Pagan practices to honor my ancestors... Feel free to LOL at this... But I am kind of curious in it.
 
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Wyzaard

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People portray the conservative Christian viewpoint as closed minded... Have you noticed this?

Not exactly... and note that your claim was that the Left has monopolized on open-mindedness, not that it claims the christian-right is close-minded.

But come to think of it, I'm not sure if that's not an accurate description of those who believe in an immutable absolute truth that must be placed into dominance on earth.

I can agree that perhaps it is not a good idea to ponder becoming a serial killer. However, it would only be fair to try to evaluate all things.

Such as serial killing? No thanks. But I'm sure you're using this term 'evaluate' in a more restricted sense... question is, how?

For instance, if you were to read Mussolini's Doctrine Of Fascism you would be more educated on what fascism really means to him, and you would learn some very interesting things. I recommend it.

Thanks. Do keep in mind that like many political viewpoints, Fascism may be described in wide as well as narrow terms; Franco, Hitler, and Mussolini didn't see eye-to-eye on all matters, but they did share some generalized characteristics.

I've met a few Chinese who pay lip service to Buddhism but the majority that I know are overwhelmingly atheist to the point of openly laughing at my prayers before meals.

Sounds reasonable... after all, why would it be necessary to repeatedly say prayers to a being that already knows your thankfulness?

I considered atheism at a few different points in my life (age 13-14 and age 20 or so).

What didn't appeal to you?

I recently considered adopting some Pagan practices to honor my ancestors... Feel free to LOL at this... But I am kind of curious in it.

And your ancestors were...? Just curious what tradition you're looking into.
 
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Verv

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Not exactly... and note that your claim was that the Left has monopolized on open-mindedness, not that it claims the christian-right is close-minded.

But come to think of it, I'm not sure if that's not an accurate description of those who believe in an immutable absolute truth that must be placed into dominance on earth.

But what about folks that have an immutable, absolute truth that they would like all people to have the option of believing... And who considered other things? ^_^

Such as serial killing? No thanks. But I'm sure you're using this term 'evaluate' in a more restricted sense... question is, how?

I do not mean try, I mean think about the benefits and negatives.

For instance... One can even take bad ideas like 'cults' and try to understand how these work and how they can theoretically be beneficial to society.

Thanks. Do keep in mind that like many political viewpoints, Fascism may be described in wide as well as narrow terms; Franco, Hitler, and Mussolini didn't see eye-to-eye on all matters, but they did share some generalized characteristics.

For sure.

Sounds reasonable... after all, why would it be necessary to repeatedly say prayers to a being that already knows your thankfulness?

There is the idea of internalized prayer when one is theoretically at a state of prayer and communion with God at all times... Prayer can be literal, conscious pray or it can be more subtle, like meditative thinking on the subway.

What didn't appeal to you?

I was a deist for a bit as I have always thought logically that there has to be a God; I've always bought the St. Thomas Acquinas proofs. When I was about 15 or 16 I wen tback to Christianity and when I was about 19-20 I flirted with atheism a little and went back to more mainstream Christianity again.

I've just never thought it logical that there is no God or gods.

And your ancestors were...? Just curious what tradition you're looking into.

Norwegian and French (French from Normandy, thus one could say 'the French who ended up living with/being subjugated by Vikings').

I am currently growing my hair out long and contemplating growing a beard for a bit... Braiding it up... You know, the fun stuff. :)

Also, being in Korea, I have witnessed some things that are more or less Pagan which I have found interesting.

I am looking into some Runic style tattooing as well.

I have always seen something very special about the Vikings and have a desire to pay a bit of homage. :)

It is harmless as it is not a literal worship of gods, but rather the rendering of respects to those that came before me and having a communion with the past.

I recently found a guy in Korea also of Nordic descent who are interested in doing the same. :)
 
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Hooksta

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I live in the South where a large number of people I know travel either to Gatlinburg or to Florida....this is their travel abroad. In addition, this region is dominated by the Protestant faith...at the very least Christianity as a whole. This is in the community we are raised in and where we are socialized in our upbringing. At an alarming rate these folks will say things like America is #1 or know without a doubt that Christianity is the ONLY way without the need of any type of reference or perspective to make such a claim. I'm not sure if that is them not being open-minded or them not being informed. Who knows, they could be right on all counts...but if they are I can't help but think of the saying "It's better to be lucky than good."

Either way it makes me laugh...Who knew the South would have the world all figured out? I'll credit the South with this...we do seem to be pretty hospitable.
 
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Wyzaard

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But what about folks that have an immutable, absolute truth that they would like all people to have the option of believing... And who considered other things?

That wouldn't be an immutable, absolute truth for one thing... general beliefs in a free and open society are based upon provisional judgments concerning human matters, not metaphysical ones. In addition, it is more a negative position... in that it doesn't engage in proscription like the opposing position purports to do.

I do not mean try, I mean think about the benefits and negatives.

For instance... One can even take bad ideas like 'cults' and try to understand how these work and how they can theoretically be beneficial to society.

Not that anyone has been able to make this case as yet... the negatives certainly are strong there.

But what exactly are you wanting us to consider? You do have a purpose in mind here.

There is the idea of internalized prayer when one is theoretically at a state of prayer and communion with God at all times... Prayer can be literal, conscious pray or it can be more subtle, like meditative thinking on the subway.

But what does that supposed connection have to do with ritualistically praying before mealtimes?

I was a deist for a bit as I have always thought logically that there has to be a God; I've always bought the St. Thomas Acquinas proofs. When I was about 15 or 16 I wen tback to Christianity and when I was about 19-20 I flirted with atheism a little and went back to more mainstream Christianity again.

Hmmm... I'd visit Kant for his take on Aquinas.

I've just never thought it logical that there is no God or gods.

Because?

Norwegian and French (French from Normandy, thus one could say 'the French who ended up living with/being subjugated by Vikings').

I am currently growing my hair out long and contemplating growing a beard for a bit... Braiding it up... You know, the fun stuff. :)

I am looking into some Runic style tattooing as well.

I have always seen something very special about the Vikings and have a desire to pay a bit of homage. :)

It is harmless as it is not a literal worship of gods, but rather the rendering of respects to those that came before me and having a communion with the past.

Asatru maybe? Pretty ominous links between Neo-Norse worship and white supremacy.... I'd be careful.
 
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Joachim

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I live in the South where a large number of people I know travel either to Gatlinburg or to Florida....this is their travel abroad. In addition, this region is dominated by the Protestant faith...at the very least Christianity as a whole. This is in the community we are raised in and where we are socialized in our upbringing. At an alarming rate these folks will say things like America is #1 or know without a doubt that Christianity is the ONLY way without the need of any type of reference or perspective to make such a claim. I'm not sure if that is them not being open-minded or them not being informed. Who knows, they could be right on all counts...but if they are I can't help but think of the saying "It's better to be lucky than good."

Either way it makes me laugh...Who knew the South would have the world all figured out? I'll credit the South with this...we do seem to be pretty hospitable.


The state of Louisiana, and the areas of the I-10 corridor disagree with you about the "dominated by Protestants" line. It is true that the upland South, and most of the south outside of the area I just mentioned, South Texas and Florida is dominated by Protestants, but that is not the entirety of the south and therefore making the blanket statement of "The south is dominated by protestants" is wrong and in fact is in and of itself a closed minded statement
 
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Hooksta

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The state of Louisiana, and the areas of the I-10 corridor disagree with you about the "dominated by Protestants" line. It is true that the upland South, and most of the south outside of the area I just mentioned, South Texas and Florida is dominated by Protestants, but that is not the entirety of the south and therefore making the blanket statement of "The south is dominated by protestants" is wrong and in fact is in and of itself a closed minded statement

Holy cow...I didn't realize anytime someone mentions "The South" they had to add a special asterisk specifically for I-10. Last I checked the word "Dominate" does not mean ALL!. Here is a nice link for you to see the Bible belt which makes up most of "The South" I and most people refer to when they say "The South." Now notice the quote below from Wikipedia, it specifically says Protestantism is a "dominant" part of the culture and church attendance. There is also a colored geographic map showing the dominant part of the South as being part of this belt.

File:BibleBelt.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Bible Belt is an informal term for an area of the United States in which socially conservative evangelical Protestantism is a dominant part of the culture and Christian church attendance across the denominations is extremely high."

I would be happy for you to share with me what part of the United States has a denser population of Protestants in the U.S. I mean why does the term "Bible Belt" exist if this isn't the case. In addition, I'd also like to here your opinion regarding which faith outranks Protestants in the South. Is it Muslim, Jews, Hindus, Mormons, atheists? My post said the South was dominated by the Protestant faith... AND at the very least Christianity as a whole. Are you telling one of the faiths above is larger than Christianity's prescence in the South? Please tell me what religious faith has enough prescence to disqualify Protestants as the dominant majority.

Who knows maybe you were referring to the less known "Rosary Belt" that includes parts of Texas, Louisiana, and Florida which is known for their Catholic prescence. Last I checked Catholics were still considered to be Christians which means I did include them in my first post. Either way this is still a mute point since the Rosary belt is but a fraction of the size of the Bible Belt, thus not disproving my statement.

Maybe you could create an I-10 belt....but you'll need to let Wikipedia know that Protestants aren't the dominant majority since they also don't seem aware of it.
 
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Joachim

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Holy cow...I didn't realize anytime someone mentions "The South" they had to add a special asterisk specifically for I-10. The word "Dominate" does not mean ALL!...well maybe it does in your part of Louisiana. Here is a nice link for you to see the Bible belt which makes up most of "The South" I and most people refer to when they say "The South."

File:BibleBelt.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Bible Belt is an informal term for an area of the United States in which socially conservative evangelical Protestantism is a dominant part of the culture and Christian church attendance across the denominations is extremely high."

I would be happy for you to share with me what part of the United States has a denser population of Protestants in the U.S. I mean why does the term "Bible Belt" exist if this isn't the case. In addition, I'd also like to here your opinion regarding which faith outranks Protestants in the South. Is it Muslim, Jews, Hindus, Mormons, atheists? My post said the South was dominated by the Protestant faith... AND at the very least Christianity as a whole. Are you telling one of the faiths above is larger than Christianity's prescence in the South? Please tell me what religious faith has enough prescence to disqualify Protestants as the dominant majority.

Who knows maybe you were referring to the less known "Rosary Belt" that includes parts of Texas, Louisiana, and Florida which is known for their Catholic prescence. Last I checked Catholics were still considered to be Christians which means I did include them in my first post. Either way this is still a mute point since the Rosary belt is but a fraction of the size of the Bible Belt, thus not disproving my statement. I know I haven't heard of an I-10 belt.


As a southerner, you should know that the south is not a monolith and that people often try and run down our region by portraying us as a monolith. Now, from the wikipedia article itself.


Bible Belt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


In the article they have a list of areas excluded from the Bible Belt. Having properly linked it, I will now copy and paste this list


Notably absent from this belt are the areas of:
Areas that belong on this list that they left off include the Beaumont-Orange region of Texas, which culturally is an extension of Cajun Louisiana. They left off Galveston, Texas, which historically was one of the most Catholic cities in the United States (and still is). They also left off the Mississippi gulf coast (or, land between New Orleans and Mobile) which is also heavily Catholic. They also left off Pensacola which has a strong historic Episcopalian-Catholic tradition.

I will also say that they got one thing wrong about Mobile. Mobile was historically majority Catholic. That changed a few decades ago. Catholics are still dominant in the city, but there are now many more mainline Protestants in the city. In all proper sense though, it still remains excluded from the Bible Belt

Once again, all these areas I just mentioned, with the exception of Galveston and Galveston is Houston metro are all along I-10. Starting from Galveston, picking back up in the Texas triangle and following I-10 for nearly 600 miles into the beach communities of Northwest Florida, you'll find that all of these communities celebrate Mardi Gras and that the Catholic communities do attach a religious significance to it.

They also got Austin wrong, because while Austin is not exactly religiously influenced, it is basically a mainline Protestant/Catholic town since all of the immigration that has come in from the northern states

Now, you are right about the upland south being the Bible Belt. That is one of the hallmarks of Appalachia. In general though, well-heeled southerners in the more fertile regions (read plantation regions) do tend to be either Presbyterian, Episcopalian or moderate Methodist and where you get down into the Evangelical nitty gritty is when you get into the upland areas that had neither many blacks nor many plantations. And then of course you have the heavily Catholic I-10 corridor
 
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Hooksta

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I in NO WAY presented the South as a monolith, I said dominant which is true no matter how you spin it. I saw the list on Wiki. It's a list of cities and a couple of counties amongst 17 states.

How do you figure your list of cities outweight 17 states and disqualfies mine AND WIKI's use of the word "dominant?"

You didn't answer my question nor disprove mine and Wiki's statement of fact. Please tell what other faith outnumbers Protestants and Christians (because I included them in my statement) in the South? You can't because you are pulling out of your rear and are grasping for straws.

The small little strand you are hanging on to I am pretty sure is called the Rosary belt and it is very much the MINORITY in comparison to the Protestant dominated Bible Belt. And Catholics are Christians are they not? And I included Christians in my statement.
 
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Joachim

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I in NO WAY presented the South as a monolith, I said dominant which is true no matter how you spin it. I saw the list on Wiki. It's a list of cities and a couple of counties amongst 17 states.

How do you figure your list of cities outweight 17 states and disqualfies mine AND WIKI's use of the word "dominant?"

You didn't answer my question nor disprove mine and Wiki's statement of fact. Please tell what other faith outnumbers Protestants and Christians (because I included them in my statement) in the South? You can't because you are pulling out of your rear and are grasping for straws.

The small little strand you are hanging on to I am pretty sure is called the Rosary belt and it is very much the MINORITY in comparison to the Protestant dominated Bible Belt. And Catholics are Christians are they not? And I included Christians in my statement.


Yes. But Bible Belt also implies a certain kind of Christianity, mainly fundamentalist Evangelicalism, which Roman Catholicism certainly does not practice. The kind of Evangelicalism where people talk about "how they were saved". The kind that leads them to vote against gambling, loosening the liquor laws. The kind of people who if you meet them will tell you they don't drink, don't gamble, don't smoke because it's somehow banned in the bible. The people who listen to Christian radio and watch TBN. Now, that's the Bible Belt.
 
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Hooksta

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Yes but my first post did not say the Bible belt nor evangelical, it said "The South" and I used the word "Protestant."

1. I injected the Bible Belt link to show that Protestants DOMINATED the Bible Belt. 2. The Bible belt in turn DOMINATES the geographic South which would in turn easily grant me permission to use the word "dominate"...because dominate doesn't mean ALL. I also included Christianity which meant I covered my bases.

You still haven't told me what faith outside of Protestantism and Christianity negates my use of the word "dominate" in relation to the South. So is it Muslim, Mormon, Jew, or Hindu?

I can't help if you read the words Protestant...including Christianity, the word Dominate, and The South and in your head heard me say the word Evangelical. The "exact quote" was

"this region is dominated by the Protestant faith...at the very least Christianity as a whole."
 
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Verv

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That wouldn't be an immutable, absolute truth for one thing... general beliefs in a free and open society are based upon provisional judgments concerning human matters, not metaphysical ones. In addition, it is more a negative position... in that it doesn't engage in proscription like the opposing position purports to do.

But to me it is an immutable truth and the people who violate it are flirting with being cut off from God.

Not that anyone has been able to make this case as yet... the negatives certainly are strong there.

But what exactly are you wanting us to consider? You do have a purpose in mind here.

Look, I do not know what you want me to say. I cannot really use more than hey, consider the positive and negative of things.


But what does that supposed connection have to do with ritualistically praying before mealtimes?

It is to remind us of His presence and it is a good way to attach oneself more to other people.

Asatru maybe? Pretty ominous links between Neo-Norse worship and white supremacy.... I'd be careful.

I'm kind of aware. The whole Varg Vikernes role in it is interesting.

However, I do not like the idea of denying a sense of pridefulness simply because of an association with racists.

You do know that every single race has been tainted with racists amongst them -- and it is far more subtle yet present in the East.
 
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Wyzaard

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But to me it is an immutable truth and the people who violate it are flirting with being cut off from God.

And that is a VERY different way of framing this matter than how I would.

Look, I do not know what you want me to say. I cannot really use more than hey, consider the positive and negative of things.
But as you are a well-known conservative traditionalist, I would say... you're perhaps admonishing us to see the positive side of your positions? In that case, I would say "seen it, thought about it... nope".

It is to remind us of His presence and it is a good way to attach oneself more to other people.
Eating's a better way, to be honest... we ALL do that.

I'm kind of aware. The whole Varg Vikernes role in it is interesting.

However, I do not like the idea of denying a sense of pridefulness simply because of an association with racists.
Granted... the links are quite strong, though; that's why I advised caution.

You do know that every single race has been tainted with racists amongst them -- and it is far more subtle yet present in the East.
Not so subtle, really; but keep in mind that the "east" is not monolithic. In contrast, Western cultures have become far more uniform, and have happened to be more prone to conducting racial exclusion/exploitation/extermination as per their religious and cultural inheritances.
 
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ragarth

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But to me it is an immutable truth and the people who violate it are flirting with being cut off from God.

One must be very careful when talking about 'immutable' truths. We are, afterall, human. Our perceptions are human, our scope of experience is human, we are not omniscient. For this reason one must make a distinction between a universal/absolute truth and our perceptive truth.

No human can know any form of absolute truth. We process everything through our perception of reality, whether it be through our senses or a sensation of some divine presence. Because of this process of perception, we can only comprehend perceptive truth, and because the scope of knowledge that defines perceptive truth is limited, it is not absolute.

Absolute truth differs from perceptive truth in that absolute truth is a hypothetical construct that exists beyond perception. It is the nebulous idea of the actual facts existing. Our perceptive truth may be the same as the absolute truth, but we cannot know this because we cannot know that our perceptive truths are absolutely true, not without being omniscient.

Going to your precise statement 'immutable truth' I state this is 'absolute truth' because a perceptive truth can change whereas an absolute truth cannot. Since immutable means changeless, immutable truth is synonymous with absolute truth. By making the claim that you have an absolute truth, you are making a claim that is beyond human capacity.

Unless you yourself are an omniscient entity (ergo you're god), you can only know perceptive truths, in other words, your 'immutable truth' is subject to change via new information (then it wouldn't be immutable, would it?). If your 'immutable truth' is not subject to change via the input of new information, then the validity of this truth is called into question because it's clear you're not believing in it by weighing it against the facts. If your belief is not based on facts (if it were, then you would admit that facts could change this truth), then your belief has no regard for reality.

(formal logic)

If belief A is based upon facts, then facts can change belief A. If we do not know all facts, and if belief A is not changeable, then belief A is not based upon the facts. If facts are designated by reality, then an unchangeable belief is not designated by reality.
 
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