Red Foxes Talking Circle

[smaneck]

I wonder what history may have looked like if European diseases hadn't wiped out such a significant amount of American natives.

Europe probably would have never achieved hegemony in that case. The Norseman, after all, had reached the Americas centuries earlier than Columbus, but they themselves had little exposure to the Afro-Eurasian disease pool at the time, so they didn't bring those diseases with them. As a result, despite their infamous brutality, they were no match for the native Americans and their colony soon died out.

What might have been even more interesting is if the Mongol invasions of Asia had never happened. The Sung Dynasty was on the verge of an Industrial Revolution in the 13th century, before the Mongols wiped out their iron works factories.

 

[Red Fox]

Hello. This thread is interesting and I too hope it continues . .

Thank you.

Not exactly. What I ran into was people insisting that: Because I am female there were things that I could not do.

I had this problem while still living at home with my adopted parents (who were white, but mixed blood NDN). I was told I couldn't do certain things because I'm a girl, which made no sense to me. However, when I became an adult and moved out, I began to emerge myself in the Cherokee and Choctaw culture and not once among my people was I told that I couldn't do certain things because I am female. In fact, it was just the opposite, because these two NDN cultures are matriarchal, their women are highly regarded and honored, which was very different, almost the exact opposite, from the culture I grew up in.

Because I joined a Lutheran church I was told Lutherans were not born again and would not be "saved." The same was said when I attended a Catholic mass. That I could not be a Christian Humanist, by both Christians and Humanists.

As I have recounted many times before on CF, I know exactly how you feel when you are told by other Christians that you aren't truly saved because you don't believe the same way as they do. I know how it feels to be told what I believe or don't believe by other Christians who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. And sadly, these accusations did not come from other minority Christians, but from a particular race that more often than not thinks it's dominate and superior to other races. And I can say this based on my own personal experiences encountering these kind of Christians since I first converted to Christianity almost 25 years ago. I know the pain, the hurt, and the emotional damage it causes, so I absolutely refuse to be guilty of the same thing myself.

Add that to other things I have seen and experienced in the recent past, I had to let it all go. It was a difficult thing, but it was good for me too. It was a complete reordering of everything I had ever thought and believed.

It's extremely difficult to let these things go, my friend. I know. I understand what you're going through and how you feel about it. I know these kind of wounds cut deep and some of them don't completely heal. I've spent the vast majority of my Christian walk being told what I believe or don't believe as an NDN Christian. Over the years, I have been mistreated, ostracized, and accused by certain people who professed personal faith in Jesus Christ. And yet, I am still standing.

 

[Red Fox]

yeah i guess, i've had to explain atheism is just a disbelief in deity's to multiple people. but not so much in real life (i keep my atheism a secret in real life). i honestly have no idea why my disbelief in gods is such a hard concept to understand to some. my favorite is when people use terms like"fundamental atheist"

I'm sorry you feel you have to hide who you are. I know how that feels too. It's difficult not to be true to yourself, so you can appease other people around you and not disappoint them. However, I have found (and it took me a long time to come to this point) that it is best for me (emotional, physically and spiritually) to be true to myself, no matter what the circumstance or the outcome. We are responsible for our own happiness and contentment, as well as for our own actions. There comes a point in our own life when we must take that responsibility upon ourselves and become our own person, independent and strong on our own. As your elder, I encourage you to be true to yourself. You are stronger than you realize. Stand strong, even if it means you some times have to stand alone.

 

[Red Fox]

It happens everyday, being Catholic is extremely rough and you constantly get accused of believing things that you don't even believe in.

What is even worse is that I am not a Roman Catholic, the variety of Catholicism that most protestants are familiar with. So I often get accused of using "sun god" wafers or rubbing ashes on my head like some ancient Babylonian cult when I don't even do those things. I love my latin brethren, and we are in communion with one another, so I naturally will defend their practices...even if I do not follow many of them. It is vicious and downright unchristian how we are treated.

I can truly sympathize with Catholics, because I think our struggles with our personal faith and beliefs are somewhat similar. I have read some posts from outsiders within the OBOB, telling Catholics what they believe or don't believe, and worse, belittling them for their Catholic faith and beliefs. I remember all the struggles I have had to face as an NDN Christian. With that said, I would like to share with you a post I wrote in one of the threads in the OBOB, concerning two Calvinists debating whether Catholics were truly Christians or not. I shared my heart in this post and I would like to share it with you now.

I can sympathize with Catholics on how they feel when they are told that they aren't Christian because they don't believe exactly the same way or worship God exactly the same way Protestants do. I fully understand how frustrated and annoyed they feel to be told what they believe or don't believe by complete outsiders who obviously don't have a clue to what they're talking about. I've been told more times than I care to count that I can't be a Christian and be truly saved if I don't abandon my entire NDN identity. I have also been told more times than I care to count what it is I believe or don't believe as an NDN Christian by other Protestant Christians who don't have the slightest idea of who I am or what I believe. I get especially annoyed when these Christians try to tell me what my ancestors believed in their spirituality, when it's obvious to me they don't have the slightest clue when I ask where they got their information from. The truth of the matter is, if they're not NDN themselves or have been adopted into a specific tribe and taught specifically by the Elders, then they're not going to know anything genuine about the spirituality and traditional ways of NDN people. That's just the way it is and the way it has always been. They're just spouting off nonsense and making themselves look really foolish. And it has always been a certain group of Protestant Christians who have done this to me. I have never had this problem from any Catholic Christian or from another minority Christian. I absolutely refuse to condemn another professing Christian who disagrees with me theologically or claim that they aren't truly saved because they don't agree with me on Scripture. I have had my fill of that nonsense for the vast majority of my Christian walk. I won't be guilty of it myself. I find that to be incredibly arrogant, prideful and foolish. I guess my rant is over now. Continue on...

 

[Red Fox]

Gov. William Bradford was the first Governor of Plymouth Colony in Massachusetts. But it was due entirely to the help that he and the colony received at the hands of the Native Americans that the colony remained alive.

In gratitude for their help, Gov. Bradford asked the Native Americans to a feast (the first Thanksgiving). I've read that Gov. Bradford remained friends with the Native Americans all his life.

Sadly, that friendship between Native Americans and the colonists did not continue after Gov. Bradford's death, or our mutual history might have been very different indeed.

I know you're wondering why i've said these things, but I've always known that where my own heritage was concerned, i had very large shoes to fill. So i was especially pleased when i received your invite here to the talking circle.

you see, i am an 11th generation descendant of that same Gov. Bradford. so to me your invitation was kind of like a chance to start again, to see if it was possible to re-establish a good working relationship between our two peoples.

and yes, by all means take my offer to your elders and see what they have to say.

Thank you for sharing this information with me. I will share your information with my elders and I'll see what they have to say.

 

[Supreme]

I can truly sympathize with Catholics, because I think our struggles with our personal faith and beliefs are somewhat similar. I have read some posts from outsiders within the OBOB, telling Catholics what they believe or don't believe, and worse, belittling them for their Catholic faith and beliefs. I remember all the struggles I have had to face as an NDN Christian. With that said, I would like to share with you a post I wrote in one of the threads in the OBOB, concerning two Calvinists debating whether Catholics were truly Christians or not. I shared my heart in this post and I would like to share it with you now.

I'd just like to add- claiming Catholics or any other group of Christians on this forum are "non-Christian" is strictly prohibited by the rules. It seems you rather justly defended Catholics, but that is an area that falls under the remit of the flaming rule.

 

[Red Fox]

There are very few things in this life that make me extremely happy and attending a POW WOW is one of them.

10 Of The Best – Pow Wows that Wow ‘em! USAToday Feature from PowWows.com

 

[Red Fox]

A must see video. Please watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVer6Z9wMzw

 

[Red Fox]

It's Presidents Day today and it's time to hand out our HALL OF SHAME award and it goes to Andrew Jackson, our 7th US President. Bloody, bloody Andrew Jackson was a very wealthy slave owner and infamous Indian killer. Jackson was given the name "Sharp Knife" by the Cherokee. His first effort at Indian fighting was waging a war against the Creeks. President Jefferson had appointed him to appropriate Creek and Cherokee lands. In his brutal military campaigns against the Indians, Andrew Jackson recommended that the troops systematically kill the Indian women and children after massacres...in order to complete the "extermination." The Creeks lost 23 million acres of land in southern Georgia and central Alabama, paving the way for cotton plantation slavery.

Jackson was not only a genocidal maniac against the Indigenous Peoples of the southwest, he was also racist against African peoples and a scofflaw who “violated nearly every standard of justice,” according to historian Bertram Wyatt-Brown. As a major general in 1818, Jackson invaded Spanish Florida chasing fugitive slaves who had escaped with the intent of returning them to their “owners,” and sparked the First Seminole War. During the conflict, Jackson captured two British men, Alexander George Arbuthnot and Robert C. Ambrister, who were living among the Seminoles. The Seminoles had resisted Jackson’s invasion of their land. One of the men had written about his support for the Seminoles’ land and treaty rights in letters found on a boat. Jackson used this “evidence” to accuse the men of “inciting” the Seminoles to “savage warfare” against the U.S. He convened a special court martial tribunal then had the men executed. He swept through Florida, crushed the Indians, executed Arbuthnot and Ambrister, violating nearly every standard of justice.

In 1830, a year after he became president, Jackson signed into law the Indian Removal Act – which legalized ethnic cleansing (example: Christian Boarding Schools), stripping Native children and toddler of their culture and identities, torture, rape and inflicting diseases on them by handing them small pox infested blankets. These children were severely beaten and punished when caught speaking their Native language. Many of these children did not survive.Within seven years 46,000 indigenous people were forcefully removed from their homelands east of the Mississippi. Their removal gave 25 million acres of land “to white settlement and to slavery. The area was home to the Cherokee, Creek, Choctaw, Chickasaw and Seminole nations. In the Trail of Tears alone, over 4,000 Cherokee people died of cold, hunger, and disease on their way to the western lands. That figure does not include the deaths of the Choctaw, Chickasaw, Creek and Seminole on their own Trail of Tears. Jackson's face appears on the $20 bill and this country celebrates with a Federal holiday for this homicidal maniac.

Native American - Honoring our Ancestors, Culture & Spirituality on Facebook

 

[Red Fox]

Today some tribal offices and federal government offices are closed to commemorate Presidents’ Day.

American Indians have a different worldview than do non-Indians of the federal government including American presidents. That is not to say, American Indians are anti-American or even anti-government. This is evidenced by the large percentage of American Indians who serve in the United States military.

However, given what American Indians have had to endure in the United States, understandably American Indians view history through a different lens. This is true of even how the men who have been president of the United States are viewed by Native people.

Excerpted from the article US Presidents in Their Own Words Concerning American Indians

 

[smaneck]

inflicting diseases on them by handing them small pox infested blankets.

Andrew Jackson was one bad dude, no doubt about that, but my impression that most of the instances where small-pox diseased blankets were deliberately given to Indians were during the French and Indian Wars. Do you have any details of instance where Andrew Jackson was responsible?
Also, I didn't think the Indian Removal Act had anything to do with the establishment of BIA schools.

Trail of Tears. Jackson's face appears on the $20 bill and this country celebrates with a Federal holiday for this homicidal maniac.

Actually Presidents Day is more about Washington and Lincoln. They combined their birthdays into a single holiday when Martin Luther King's birthday became a federal holiday.

 

[Red Fox]

Andrew Jackson was one bad dude, no doubt about that, but my impression that most of the instances where small-pox diseased blankets were deliberately given to Indians were during the French and Indian Wars. Do you have any details of instance where Andrew Jackson was responsible?
Also, I didn't think the Indian Removal Act had anything to do with the establishment of BIA schools.

I have better choice words to call Andrew Jackson, but I can't repeat them here. And I don't know about your question at this time. I'll have to look into it further. I'll also look into the connection between the NDN Removal Act and BIA schools. I'm sorry but I don't have a reasonable answer for your inquiries at this time.

Actually Presidents Day is more about Washington and Lincoln. They combined their birthdays into a single holiday when Martin Luther King's birthday became a federal holiday.

I know that, but as he was a tyrannical inhuman monster sitting in the white house, ordering the deaths of my NDN ancestors, he gets to be attacked, scrutinized and slandered, especially on President's Day. I can't even use a 20 dollar bill when I need to spend money. I can't bring myself to touch one.

 

[smaneck]

I know that, but as he was a tyrannical inhuman monster sitting in the white house, ordering the deaths of my NDN ancestors, he gets to be attacked, scrutinized and slandered, especially on President's Day. I can't even use a 20 dollar bill when I need to spend money. I can't bring myself to touch one.

My son feels exactly the same way about Andrew Jackson. He hates the fact we live in a town named after him.

 

[lisah]

It's extremely difficult to let these things go, my friend. I know. I understand what you're going through and how you feel about it. I know these kind of wounds cut deep and some of them don't completely heal. I've spent the vast majority of my Christian walk being told what I believe or don't believe as an NDN Christian. Over the years, I have been mistreated, ostracized, and accused by certain people who professed personal faith in Jesus Christ. And yet, I am still standing.

Ah, that's good. It took me a long time to figure out that I wasn't Christian. I was never taught "Jesus as God", that had never been a part of my beliefs or training growing up. After discussing and reading about this, time and again, it seemed to be the crux of the opposition.

Unlike in your case, sometimes people telling you what you are not might be correct. I have yet to find a group of Christians who believe otherwise.

 

[Cute Tink]

I'm glad you are sticking around.

 

[smaneck]

Unlike in your case, sometimes people telling you what you are not might be correct. I have yet to find a group of Christians who believe otherwise.

It used to be that Unitarians shared your belief, but nowadays they seem to have thrown out revelation along with incarnation.

 

[Red Fox]

Good afternoon, my friends. I am sticking around. I can't talk about what happened in public, but please know that things are being worked out.

 

[GoingByzantine]

I can truly sympathize with Catholics, because I think our struggles with our personal faith and beliefs are somewhat similar. I have read some posts from outsiders within the OBOB, telling Catholics what they believe or don't believe, and worse, belittling them for their Catholic faith and beliefs. I remember all the struggles I have had to face as an NDN Christian. With that said, I would like to share with you a post I wrote in one of the threads in the OBOB, concerning two Calvinists debating whether Catholics were truly Christians or not. I shared my heart in this post and I would like to share it with you now.

Thank you for your support, I support you too. You are a strong person for enduring all that you do.

 

[Red Fox]

Thank you for your support, I support you too. You are a strong person for enduring all that you do.

Thank you, my friend. That means more to me than you know.

 

[Red Fox]

I thought it was time I started to share my story here within our Circle. I have shared bits and pieces of my life, but not the complete story. If it would be all right with everyone, I would like to share more of my personal life and experiences here with my Talking Circle family. Please let me know if it is acceptable.