Red Foxes Talking Circle

Red Fox · Mar 5, 2015

jacknife said:
I believe the evidence points from humans originating from Africa, actually i think a thread on this topic already exists.

I certainly don't want to start an argument about this issue within our Circle. It's not going to accomplish anything, because my mind will not be changed. I posted that image earlier to let it be known where I stand on the B.S. theory. I had to defend myself last night in another thread when this issue was brought up and it frustrated me beyond words. I'm so sick of having to defend the NDN way of life, our traditions, our culture, our languages, our stories, and our history. I'm so sick and tired of being asked to prove to non-native people, even to other NDNs, that I'm an NDN or having to defend myself because I am NDN. I'm so sick of being mistreated, ridiculed, singled out, ostracized, and discriminated against because I am NDN. I've been accused of either being too NDN (as if that were possible) or not being NDN enough. I live in two separate conflicting cultures and I'm trapped in the middle, with no possible escape.

Aldebaran · Mar 5, 2015

jacknife said:
I believe the evidence points from humans originating from Africa, actually i think a thread on this topic already exists.

Oh, I know, but people expanded from there to other parts of the world, including Egypt, before they came here. I just think there's evidence that supports the idea that Native Americans are descendants of Egyptians who came to the land we now refer to as the United States of America. Of course it's possible that Egyptians and other middle east cultures shared some traits, and it could have been descendants of some other middle eastern culture that came here first.

Red Fox · Mar 5, 2015

jacknife · Mar 5, 2015

Red Fox said:
I certainly don't want to start an argument about this issue within our Circle. It's not going to accomplish anything, because my mind will not be changed. I posted that image earlier to let it be known where I stand on the B.S. theory. I had to defend myself last night in another thread when this issue was brought up and it frustrated me beyond words. I'm so sick of having to defend the NDN way of life, our traditions, our culture, our languages, our stories, and our history. I'm so sick and tired of being asked to prove to non-native people, even to other NDNs, that I'm an NDN or having to defend myself because I am NDN. I'm so sick of being mistreated, ridiculed, singled out, ostracized, and discriminated against because I am NDN. I've been accused of either being too NDN (as if that were possible) or not being NDN enough. I live in two separate conflicting cultures and I'm trapped in the middle, with no possible escape.

I will not attempt to change your mind here I doubt i could anyways. I believe you are NDN you don't have to prove anything to me.

Red Fox · Mar 5, 2015

Red Fox · Mar 5, 2015

jacknife said:
I will not attempt to change your mind here I doubt i could anyways. I believe you are NDN you don't have to prove anything to me.

Thank you for your understanding and for your compassion.

Aldebaran · Mar 5, 2015

Red Fox said:
Thank you for your understanding and for your compassion.

Just out of curiosity, where do Native Americans believe they originated from? Do they believe they came here from another country in the past, such as Egypt? Or do they believe they originated right here in America independently? I asked a Native American friend once about that and told her what I heard about Egyptians in the past emigrating here, but she became very defensive about it. What do you think?

Red Fox · Mar 5, 2015

Aldebaran said:
Just out of curiosity, where do Native Americans believe they originated from?

I think it defends on which NDN you ask, based on what it taught in their tribe and whether or not they believe the stories of their tribe.

I cannot speak for all NDNs on this issue. I can only speak for myself.

Aldebaran said:
Do they believe they came here from another country in the past, such as Egypt?

Doubtful. The vast majority of the NDNs I know outright reject the Bering Strait theory, just as I do.

Aldebaran said:
Or do they believe they originated right here in America independently?

Again, that depends on the NDN you ask, based on what it taught in their tribe and whether or not they believe the stories of their tribe.

Again, I cannot speak for all NDNs on this issue. I can only speak for myself.

Aldebaran said:
I asked a Native American friend once about that and told her what I heard about Egyptians in the past emigrating here, but she became very defensive about it.

I'm sure she did. And I agree with her being defensive.

Aldebaran said:
What do you think?

Now I can speak to this. I believe the stories of my ancestors, which have been passed down through centuries of tradition and stories. I believe these stories, which have been told by the elders, I have no reason to doubt them or not believe them. These stories are vast and many of them are available online, if you know where to find them. I believe the compelling contradicting evidence found by NDNs, such as Vine Deloria, Jr., against the Bering Strait theory myth.

Red Fox · Mar 5, 2015

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d6dRBS98o0

Red Fox · Mar 5, 2015

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iArcG-S3_QM

Red Fox · Mar 5, 2015

Aldebaran · Mar 5, 2015

Red Fox said:
Now I can speak to this. I believe the stories of my ancestors, which have been passed down through centuries of tradition and stories. I believe these stories, which have been told by the elders, I have no reason to doubt them or not believe them. These stories are vast and many of them are available online, if you know where to find them. I believe the compelling contradicting evidence found by NDNs, such as Vine Deloria, Jr., against the Bering Strait theory myth.

What is the story told by your elders that you believe about Native American origin in the USA?

Red Fox · Mar 6, 2015

Aldebaran said:
What is the story told by your elders that you believe about Native American origin in the USA?

With all due respect, it is part of my responsibility to preserve and protect my people's stories, which means I need to keep them from being scrutinized, ridiculed, and ripped a part by outsiders, so with that in mind, I'm not going to post these stories here or anywhere else when I know what the possible outcome will be. These stories are very important to me and I'm not going to post them where they could be exploited and mocked. I have also decided to stop discussing this issue, simply because I'm very tired of having to defend myself and my beliefs to other people. I hope you will understand.

Red Fox · Mar 6, 2015

I'm excited because tomorrow is the NDN protest in Lawton, Oklahoma.

dlamberth · Mar 6, 2015

Red Fox said:
...such as Vine Deloria, Jr.,

I never heard of him, so I went to the Google. Wow...what an interesting person.

.

Red Fox · Mar 6, 2015

dlamberth said:
I never heard of him, so I went to the Google. Wow...what an interesting person.

.

Yeah, he was an awesome author and NDN activist.

smaneck · Mar 6, 2015

Red Fox said:
I know you disagree with me, smaneck, but yes, that is how I feel.

Yeah, but can science be a matter of feeling?

I recommend the book Red Earth, White Lies by Vine Deloria Jr.

He is a political scientist who taught at the University of Arizona when I was there. But how does that qualify him in regards to anthropology and archaeology?

I didn't look at all of those articles, but I note this one:

Harvard Professor Confirms Bering Strait Theory Is Not Fact

It is the very nature of science that their assertions are considered theory and not fact because they remain potentially falsifiable. So yes, evolution is a theory. So is the assertion that the world is round. There are some problems with the Bering Strait theory, like how in the world do they make it down as far South America in the space of a few hundred years? Yet, the path of the DNA seems pretty clear. That is not to say this is the only way people got to the Americas. The Polynesians made it at some point, as they left their chicken bones and took the sweet potato.

DNA Politics: Anzick Child Casts Doubt on Bering Strait Theory

I'm a little confused as to why this article believes the Anzick child negates the Bering Strait Theory. The very fact the child was painted with ochre suggests to me an Asian origin, as this was an integral part of the burial customs of prehistoric Asians.

I would agree that the distinction between Paleo-Americans and Paleo-Indians is a rather silly one. You can't draw those conclusions on the basis of a single skeletal remain (here I'm talking about the Kennewek man.) Belief in the Bering Strait theory does not imply that the ancestors of Native Americans were not the first human inhabitants of this Continent. I don't know anyone who seriously argues that the Clovis culture is not Indian, for instance. What is perhaps more puzzling to me is why Native Americans would object to the notion that we all descend from the same mother, whether that is the Eve of the Bible or the Eve of the "out of Africa" theory. To say Native Americans originated here in America would suggest they are a unique species.
I know the Chinese make the same claim, but are we arguing then, that there were multiple creations? That humanity is not really one?

Red Fox · Mar 6, 2015

Occupying Ft. Lawton: 45th Anniversary Celebration of Daybreak Star Indian Cultural Center

We, the Native Americans, reclaim the land known as Ft. Lawton in the name of all American Indians by right of discovery. We feel that this land of Ft. Lawton is more suitable to pursue an Indian way of life, as determined by our own standards. By this we mean this place does not resemble most Indian reservations. It has potential for modern facilities, adequate sanitation facilities, health care facilities, fresh running water, educational facilities, and transportation facilities. ~Bob Satiacum (Puyallup)

On March 8th, 1970, Native activists and supporters began an occupation Fort Lawton in North Seattle. Inspired by the occupation of Alcatraz, members of Seattles Native community turned their organizing efforts to occupying the military fort in effort to establish an Indian cultural center. Seven years later, after several occupations and negotiations with local and State officials, the Daybreak Star Indian Cultural Center was dedicated, becoming the first major successful Indian occupation of the 1960s and 70s (read full history of the Fort Lawton Occupation by Lossom Allen below).

Click here to read the rest of the story.

Red Fox · Mar 6, 2015

paul becke · Mar 6, 2015

GoingByzantine said:
It happens everyday, being Catholic is extremely rough and you constantly get accused of believing things that you don't even believe in.

What is even worse is that I am not a Roman Catholic, the variety of Catholicism that most protestants are familiar with. So I often get accused of using "sun god" wafers or rubbing ashes on my head like some ancient Babylonian cult when I don't even do those things. I love my latin brethren, and we are in communion with one another, so I naturally will defend their practices...even if I do not follow many of them. It is vicious and downright unchristian how we are treated.

Hi Red Fox. I hope you don't mind my intruding unannounced.

Generally speaking, GoingByzantine, I think that should be water off a duck's back. The eagle and the pigeons thing. If you appreciate your faith enormously I think you're more inclined to feel a bit sorry for people who want to impose their faith on you, though, sure, it can get tiresome when they 'foam at the mouth.'

It can get so that (at least in my case) you want to suggest to them that they don't seem to have enough peace in their heart to be respectful to others. They seem to be 'kicking against the goad' - as if God were trying to prompt them in a certain direction they don't want to go, and they want to drown out his urgings by aggressively asserting their own 'know-all' theology to others.

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