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Reconciling "begotten" and "eternally"

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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Yes, I'm aware of that. But thank you.

Since you bolded that phrase in my post, I suppose I should explain what I meant.

Arianism definitely has a strand in which Jesus of Nazareth is adopted and united to the created Logos in his baptism. Understanding that the incarnation is, therefore, does not mean that the Logos of God is universally, totally, fully, and always found in the person and work of Jesus Christ opens up a whole world of alternative authorities.

Thus, Arianism had room for the divine authority mediated through the Logos to exercise itself outside the revelation of Jesus Christ. This manifested itself particularly through the emperors. Therefore, the emperors of the fourth century, who were successors of Roman emperors who had functioned as demigods (fully deified on death, and therefore each emperor was a son of a god) and the high priests of the empire, were particularly attracted to a form of Christianity that justified their authority in such a way as to retain their quasi-divine status. The Logos, then, could operate in the emperors in the same way it operated in Christ.

The courage of Constantine was that, despite the semi-divine praise heaped on him by Eusebius of Caesarea (who was occasionally sympathetic to Arianism), he supported the position that reduced his authority to that of a delegated authority of the ruling office. His successors weren't that courageous or pious; throughout the fourth century there were multiple attempts to institute Arianism by sympathetic emperors who ignored the Council of Nicea. It took Theodosios (who was nowhere near as tolerate of religious diversity as Constantine) to reaffirm Nicea at the Council of Constantinople in 381.

Anyways, that's something I'd like to do more research on, but the relationship between religio-political totalitarianism and Arianism is well documented. The fullness of the Trinitarian doctrine of Nicea and the doctrine of the incarnation at Chalcedon is, ultimately, a challenge to all claims for authority apart from the gospel.
 
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Martinius

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How can anyone eternally be a "Son"? It's the same thing.

Not quite the same thing, but it certainly leads to a similar question. Normally, a father exists before, and ranks above, his son, but that is not the case here (although I suspect that many Christians see the Trinity as also a hierarchy). And a father can "beget" a son, but not eternally. I asked about the dichotomy between "eternally" and "begotten" because they are used together in the creeds, and to keep the focus on that contradictory idea without mucking it up with other issues. What it means to be "Son of God" is a whole other (although related) discussion.
 
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G

GratiaCorpusChristi

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I would just like to note that you, more than most, have really gotten to the heart of the issue. How someone can be both eternal and begotten is exactly the issue that was up for debate at Nicea.
 
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Cappadocious

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Cappadocious

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A few days ago I read something that triggered a question about the terms "begotten" and "eternally".

My question is: How could Christ be eternal yet at the same time "begotten of the Father"?

Consider a lake that is eternally fed from a river. The river generates the lake, yet both have always existed.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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This has been a mini theme lately, I was curious, How does one apply this in their life if it is true? On the angle of application, I'm not sure if it matters.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Hmmm one could say the voice of God was begotten by the mouth of God in the beginning, because in the beginning Jesus was simply the voice of God who walked in the Garden during the cool of the day. But that would be using poetic license. It wasn't until he was born as a human, that the voice of God became flesh.

Also let's clarify, what word in some other language and what definition are you working with when you say 1) eternal and 2) begotten? I might agree but apply it differently because the words mean something different to me.
 
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Martinius

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Consider a lake that is eternally fed from a river. The river generates the lake, yet both have always existed.
Not really. It sounds like the river existed first, and neither eternally.
 
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younglite

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younglite

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The thread is in "Controversial Theology." There was an orthodox before the "orthodox" that was later "settled" in the 4th and 5th centuries.

The river generates the lake, yet both have always existed.

As Martinius succinctly stated, it sounds like the river existed first. If the river had to generate the lake, then it was prior to the lake.
 
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Martinius

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Thank you. From my experience and knowledge of waterways, it seems that a lake is often created from streams of water flowing in, while rivers often flow out of lakes. So one or the other must usually occur first. I am not sure what this has to do with theology of the Trinity.

My OP (from 4 years ago!) was about the lack of clarity regarding the terms "begotten" and "eternally" being used together. No one has so far made it any clearer.
 
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younglite

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Martinius, the reason why "eternally begotten" isn't clear is because it isn't possible. All kinds of theological gymnastics are used to make the two concepts work together, which end up nullifying one or the other. I believe the Son is both eternal and begotten, but not eternally begotten.
 
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Cappadocious

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As Martinius succinctly stated, it sounds like the river existed first. If the river had to generate the lake, then it was prior to the lake.
I'm not trying to be rude or anything, mate, but it sounds like you're endorsing a sort of idea like this:

"Necessarily, if x is a cause of y, then x is temporally prior to y"

Is that the sort of idea you're endorsing?

If so, do you also endorse this:

"Necessarily, if x explains y, then x is temporally prior to y"?
 
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Cappadocious

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You aren't allowed to speak about this outside of controversial theology (I guess that's the new name for unorthodox) because it contradicts the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed.
 
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Martinius

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You aren't allowed to speak about this outside of controversial theology (I guess that's the new name for unorthodox) because it contradicts the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed.
My original query of four years ago was about reconciling the terms, not about the theology. I see a contradiction in using the words together, when they separately imply opposite processes. Historically, was it done that way to appease different parties in the discussion, or was one of the words added later to clarify what was intended, but then made it even more murky? To me, we could say one or the other but not both.

It is like we have had this statement in the creed that makes no sense, but we just keep repeating it with no understanding whatsoever of what it means. I have come to believe that such murkiness was not intended and that the first Apostles, if you would bring the idea of eternally and begotten being combined into one idea would have appeared confused themselves. They would probably wonder why someone would spend so much time on obscure and unimportant arguments when they had little if anything to do with being a follower of Christ and responding to his Gospel, which at the time was more urgent and important. If the second coming of Christ had occurred within 50 years or so after his execution, none of it would have mattered. But 300 years after it seems that it was more theological argument than evangelizing that was happening.
 
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