Recommended Reading Thread

[Leanna]

Did you like Playful Parenting?

Two of the books on my list have a Waldorf slant, just an fyi.

I did but its been more than a year now so I forget some of it... I borrowed it from the library

I see that, what attracts you to waldorf? I am a montessori and charlotte mason "follower" myself, which is kind of funny because I know at least cm didn't appreciate montessori (they were contemporaries)

 

[heart of peace]

Where do I begin?! LOL I don't want to derail this thread but I personally like a blend of Waldorf, Montessori, Howard Garnder and Jean Piaget all being taught with a Godly basis. How's that for a crazy mix...hehe

Anyway, I like Waldorf principles in the home for many reasons but mostly because of how it engages the child and how it brings out the child's imagination. Also, I think Rudolf Steiner came up with some very interesting and spiritual concepts in regards to child development. For example, he believed that children didn't grow up, they grew down. First they get control over their heads, then their torso, finally their legs. There is just so much that I love about Waldorf in the home, that's why You Are Your Child's First Teacher is in my top 3 (obviously, the Bible is in its own league of course ).

 

[jessesgirl]

Nobody liked my list . I put a lot of effort into posting the images of the books...*sniff*

Just kidding y'all! I just want to bring some lightness to this thread before it gets all controversial on us in heah!

You are Your Child's First Teacher...good? one of the best you've read? Why?

 

[Scottish Joy]

Ok, I DO NOT want to get a debate going on this- I just want to reply with my point of view. Mostly because this post was so scalding, and I don't see it this way at all. Let's not resort to too much name calling here. There are probably just as many horror stories floating around about, say, the Ezzos' books if you look for them.

Please don't take this the wrong way, illinoismommy- you are totally entitled to your opinion! I respect that.

Okay, let's look at chapter one, these are direct quotes,

"Careful training can make a dog perfectly obedient. A dog can be trained not to touch a tasty morsel laid in front of him. Can't a child be trained not to touch? A dog can be trained to come, stay, sit, be quiet or fetch upon command. You may not have trained your dog that well, yet every day someone accomplishes it on the dumbest mutts. ... Proper training always works on every child. "

After being compared to dogs, the next section is comparing training your children to training horses. This pretty much sets up his view on children and raising them. You are to treat them like Pavlov's dogs nothing but psychological responses.... not wonderful creations of Christ like you and I. A child is not a dog, or a horse, nor do their brains work the same way.

I don't believe this quote gives the whole picture of his view on child training- it's a real attention getter (MP's quirky sense of humor aside), and the way I see it, it does make sense. Children are not stupid. Dogs are stupid sometimes, but look what can be done with them by utilizing their psychological responses! Proper training can make a dog a joy to live with. And training is training- be it dogs, horses or children. Their brains don't have to work the same way- the training techniques suggested for children are not exactly the same approach a dog trainer would use. I don't see him trying to minimize the importance of childrens' status as wonderful creations of Christ either. He doesn't say anything like that. How about this quote? From chapter 2.

"...Just as the child Jesus "increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man" (Luke 2:52), so your child is going to experience a growth of understanding. God's grace reaches out, providing the Holy Scriptures which are able to make him "wise unto salvation" (1 Tim 3:15). You, the parents, must equip your child to save himself from this "untoward generation" (Acts 2:40). God already has a prototype of the finished child: It is that he might be "conformed to the image of His Son" (Rom. 8:29). You must work with God toward the day when your children will be conformed to "the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" (Eph. 4:13). The promise of God is still operative: "Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it" (Proverbs 22:6) You can begin the child's "sanctification" long before his salvation."

Children are beautiful creations of God, and as such they deserve to be given the best start at life as is possible. They deserve to be "trained up in the way they should go", so they'll have less to struggle with later.

The next paragraph says, "When my children were able to crawl (in the case of one, roll) around the room, I ...
Place an appealing object where they can reach it, maybe in a "No-no" corner or on an apple juice table (That's where the coffee table
once sat). When they spy it and make a dive for it, in a calm voice say, "No, don't touch it." They will already be familiar with the "No," so they will pause, look at you in wonder and then turn around and grab it. Switch their hand once and simultaneously say, "No.""

Then we are told that it is training to switch a baby.... 6 months old. Not only are you to switch them but set them up for failure by placing an object that they are sure to reach for so that you can switch them. That is developmentally inappropriate and sick all at once.

He regularly uses manipulative language to say that parenting other ways is stressful but parenting in his sick and demeaning way is joyful and relaxing.... very cultish behavior.... and a lie, all at once.

Okay, I have to disagree very strongly here. In the excercise above, you're not hurting the child. You're teaching the child. The switch is surprising, but it isn't meant to hurt. If it leaves a mark or makes the child cry, you're doing it wrong. And if the child doesn't understand, they're not punished for it- the instruction is to wait until they do understand & try again. No anger. No frustration. But a 6 month old is smart! In the majority of cases, a child that age is fully capable of learning what is off limits. And when they know what is and isn't ok, you can trust them- even say, at their grandparents' in a roomful of no-no's.

I've done this very thing, both with little brothers and sisters and with my own baby, and it's amazing! My 8 month old son knows he is not to tip over his bowl when I'm feeding him, and that he's not to grab people's glasses either. If he tries, all I have to do is say "no", and he pulls that little hand back and smiles at me. He's smart and I'm proud of him. I think he even knows he's smart.

It's no good to try to convince people of something you don't believe in- MP truly believes that training a child as soon as they understand makes for a more joyful and relaxing home. And if you read some of the letters they get from stressed out, angry parents begging for help for their out of control kids... It's not a lie. You may not agree with what he teaches, and God bless you! That's the beautiful thing about it- your family is yours- your blessing and your responsibility. And from reading your other posts, I think you're doing an awesome job! But TTUAC has helped me with my family, and helped a lot of other people too. There are crazies out there who are just mean to their kids. Bad people who do all kinds of awful stuff in anger- but nobody makes them that way. It's not Michael Pearl's fault, although they may blame him. It's not Gary Ezzo's fault either, although they may blame him! It's the out of control parents.

I don't endorse everything the Pearls say. Not by a long shot! But they're not the devil. And I think their parenting books are worth a read.

If you want to discuss it some more, you could PM me or we could start another thread or something.. I don't want to totally derail this one. OK ladies! Back about your business!

 

[Leanna]

Ok, I DO NOT want to get a debate going on this- I just want to reply with my point of view. Mostly because this post was so scalding, and I don't see it this way at all. Let's not resort to too much name calling here. There are probably just as many horror stories floating around about, say, the Ezzos' books if you look for them.

I didn't give any horror stories I just think the way they see children is messed up. I would rather a person follow Ezzo to the end than to use the Pearl's book. I don't believe there is a more damaging book out there besides this one, he uses manipulative language by comparing his way with the Other way... and the other way is always stressed out, because if you are not hitting your babies, you cannot have true joy in your home and therein lies the nature of manipulative language. They also misuse scripture and take it out of context, its really quite alarming, I might be able to find one on TTUAC but I already have this one on their marriage book bookmarked, http://createdtobehelpmeet.blogspot.com/

here are some others I found if it helps
http://allthings2all.blogspot.com/2005/09/michael-and-debi-pearls-no-greater-joy_30.html
http://allthings2all.blogspot.com/2005/07/review-to-train-up-child-by-michael.html
http://www.tulipgirl.com/mt/archives/000636.html

 

[Scottish Joy]

Always... hitting your babies... manipulative language .... <unnecessary comment> I could say a lot more about this, but I think there's been enough said here. Let's agree to disagree, K? I think ppl need to read up on things for themselves. By all means, google the Pearls and their books. Here's another link so you can also read what they have to say & make up your own mind. That's to everybody who hasn't already got their mind firmly made up.

http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/magazine/archive/

And I just read over the link you posted about "Created." Interesting. I think they're jumping to a lot of conclusions about what she meant, but I get the gist of what they're saying. Thanks for the link.

 

[Leanna]

If you would prefer me to say switching babies I can do that, I automatically typed hitting because it is the same thing to me. I would rather if you didn't place words in my mouth but if you want to ask me something through PM then you are welcome.

 

[Linnis]

Someone suggested to my hubby "The Baby Whisperer" before Justin was ever born. I never looked into it...but I hear it was really good. Has anyone read it?

I read it. Didn't like it. The woman who wrote it is very anti-breastfeeding. While she claims not to be, her tone towards breastfeeding even more so at night. Not my cup of tea but I have friends who love her book and use the techniques with their kids.

 

[Scottish Joy]

No, by all means say what you mean! Nope also, I didn't mean to put anything in your mouth. If I misunderstood your implication I'm sorry. We just don't see this the same way & I don't see much point in discussing it any further. It's just hard to be quiet about something I feel has truly been a blessing in my life, and seeing it dismissed as lies, sick behavior and a cult. If it's not for you, I'm fine with that. God bless!

 

[Leanna]

No, by all means say what you mean! Nope also, I didn't mean to put anything in your mouth. If I misunderstood your implication I'm sorry. We just don't see this the same way & I don't see much point in discussing it any further. It's just hard to be quiet about something I feel has truly been a blessing in my life, and seeing it dismissed as lies, sick behavior and a cult. If it's not for you, I'm fine with that. God bless!

I understand that feeling too because its really hard for me to be quiet when I see the Pearls recommended for exactly the opposite reason....

 

[Scottish Joy]

Wow! So we understand each other- and even kind of... sort of... agree..... in a twisted upside-down sort of way....

 

[lin1235]

Why blech to "To Train Up a Child?"

I did actually read it. Or at least, I read the first chapter, and I was physically nauseous. I'm sure, as with all parenting books, there are some truths and pearls of wisdom in there - I would be astounded to find out it's 100% bad. But honestly, I believe To train up a child is a manual for child abuse.

Of course not everyone who's read the book or applied some of the principles are abusing their children, that's not what I mean at all. But I believe a literal application of their principles will result in child abuse.

Just my opinion - we can agree to disagree, I will always disagree with anyone who recommends the Pearls' books.

 

[Scottish Joy]

That's okay. You're entitled to your opinion too- and I'm getting used to being the odd one out!

Hey, back on topic, does anybody else have "Dr. Mom"? It's a pretty old book, so some of it is outdated, but I think there's a lot of helpful info. in it.

 

[heart of peace]

ScottishJoy, would you describe the author of To Train Up A Child as a behaviorist (like BF Skinner)?

 

[jessesgirl]

Dr. Mom...no. I just bought one of James Dobson's books...something about every question you ever asked answers to...HA...or something like that!

 

[Scottish Joy]

ScottishJoy, would you describe the author of To Train Up A Child as a behaviorist (like BF Skinner)?

No, I wouldn't. I usually don't go around describing people as (pick a word)ists. I haven't read all his books and I've already made it clear (or I thought I did ) that I don't support every word the man says... He is not infallible. If I had to pin a tag on him, I think it would say, "author of one of many parenting books I find helpful." After reading the links illinoismommy posted (yep, read them all through), I've heard him called a lot of things. If by behaviorist, you mean, would I describe him as someone who advocates treating children like soulless dogs to be pushed around at a whim- NO! I think he's being taken out of context quite a bit, but that's my opinion, and I'm not trying to convince anybody.. Just giving my little old opinion for cryin out loud!

I agree that he seems to have some wierd ideas about the book of Romans- I'll tell you what, I wouldn't have a pastor who made claims to a better knowledge of scripture than the preachers of years ago- but I already knew that he believed some wierd things. I don't agree with the man's Bible teaching, at least what I've heard so far (and it's not much). But I don't have to agree completely with somebody's doctrine to be blessed by their perspective on another subject (which doctrine I don't see in the child training books nearly as much as said link-writers did). Let me reiterate, I am not a MichaelPearl-ite! I believe the words I originally used were "I enjoy TTUAC and the No Greater Joy series." And I do. I think they're good books! I've found them helpful. And maybe... maybe... there is another person or two out there who would enjoy them and benefit from reading them. I thought that's what this thread was about.

 

[Leanna]

I will also add How to Raise An Amazing Child The Montessori Way if you're into that kind of educational "stuff"

 

[heart of peace]

No, I wouldn't. I usually don't go around describing people as (pick a word)ists. I haven't read all his books and I've already made it clear (or I thought I did ) that I don't support every word the man says... He is not infallible. If I had to pin a tag on him, I think it would say, "author of one of many parenting books I find helpful." After reading the links illinoismommy posted (yep, read them all through), I've heard him called a lot of things. If by behaviorist, you mean, would I describe him as someone who advocates treating children like soulless dogs to be pushed around at a whim- NO! I think he's being taken out of context quite a bit, but that's my opinion, and I'm not trying to convince anybody.. Just giving my little old opinion for cryin out loud!

I see. Thank you for responding. . Just an fyi, I didn't attach a meaning (negative or positive) to the behaviorist theory. It's a valid theory and there are many people who agree with it and I was just curious if the author would be likened to a behaviorist.



So, I went to the library today to get a book I had on hold and browsed in the Parent/Child section while my son rocked on the rocking chair...lol I ended up taking out Playful Parenting and the How To Talk... one The latter seems interesting (liked the picture illustrations of conversations) but it seems more geared to parents of children who are out of toddlerhood. Am I getting the wrong impression?

 

[jessesgirl]

Playful parenting? Who wrote it? I am interested!

 

[heart of peace]

Playful parenting? Who wrote it? I am interested!

From amazon:

From Publishers Weekly
"Pretend... that we're really gonna be late and you're really mad," Emma, daughter of psychologist and play therapist Cohen, whispered one morning, cleverly transforming their morning ritual his grumpy attempt to get her off to preschool into a fun game. According to Cohen, children of all ages have an ongoing need for connectedness, security and attachment; playful interaction with parents is an important way to develop such bonds. Through play, parents can help their kids develop greater confidence, express bottled up or difficult feelings, recover from daily emotional upheavals, negotiate agreements, express love and not least have fun. In his therapy practice, Cohen has used play to help both severely troubled and securely attached kids negotiate the daily travails of life; he demonstrates how to prevent and address serious problems with silliness and laughter. Cohen acknowledges that it is sometimes difficult for busy and harried parents to relearn play, and that playtime is both physically challenging and tiring. However, using examples from his practice, research and personal experience, he intelligently guides parents through the possibilities awaiting them if they are willing and able to loosen up. The book explores play with compassion, but is often so funny that parents will find themselves chortling out loud with recognition and anticipation. Agent, Josh Horwitz. (On-sale date: May 29)Forecast: Cohen takes his practice on the road for a five-city author tour, which should help convince the Scrooge-like of play's primacy. His lessons on the deflection of anger are applicable beyond the m&#8218;nage. Copyright 2001 Cahners Business Information, Inc.

Here is the link

Out of 31 reviews made by regular people, 27 gave it a 5 and nothing lower than a 3 was given. I employ playful parenting naturally so I'm interested in honing this ability.