Reasons why you are very unwise to trust your church’s doctrines

[Bro in Christ]

Would you please assist us all by backquoting so that we know to which post you refer?

That is not what Eph 3:19 states. It states: '19 and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God' (ESV).

It is the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge.

Eph 3:19 To [experiencial] know the [agape] love of Christ which passes knowledge ; that you may[choice to do eph 5:21] be filled with all the fullness of God. NKJ

fullness... eph 1:22-23, eph 4:13, eph 5:18

 

[Bro in Christ]

Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control (1 Tim 2:15 ESV).
Thanks, Oz

Context of 1 tim ? 1 tim 3:15


But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.


1 tim 2:8 I will therefore that all men worship every where, lifting up holy[romans 12:10] hands, without wrath[flesh enemy James1:20,eph 4:30] and doubting[James 1:6, 1 cor 8:1-13]


9 In like manner also, that all women adorn themselves in modest[ 1peter 3:3] apparel, with propriety and moderation[1 cor 11:5-11]; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array [1 cor 11:31, 1 cor 5:12, 1 cor 6:2,4,mark 14:3, 1 sam 16:7]

10 But which becometh women professing godliness[eph 5:24] with good works
11 Let the woman learn[Matt 27:14] in calmness with all submission[1 peter 3:8,acts 5:29]
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach[james 3:1,1peter3:1], nor to usurp authority over the man[2 cor 11:3, 1 cor 7:3-16 ], but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve[Gen 2:21]
14 And Adam thus sinned and was not deceived, but the EVE being [completely]deceived was in the transgression[not sinned] .
15 Notwithstanding she[singular] shall be saved in [1 tim 3:11-12,5:14]childbearing, if they[plural eph 5:31 one flesh 1 peter 3:7] continue in faith[not doubting vs 8 husband vs 11 wife] love[vs 8 not angry] and holiness[1 tim 2:8] with self control.

I have more verses tired

 

[OzSpen]

That is not for me to say. I only know where God's Church is. I do not presume to judge if others may find salvation outside the visible Church.

I find this to be an example of dodging and weaving. If the only true church is the Eastern Orthodox Church, surely that is a statement that one cannot become a Christian and become a member of the body of Christ, the church, without being a member of the EOC?

Therefore, I as an evangelical Protestant cannot be a Christian as a member of the Church, the body of Christ, based on that understanding.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Eph 3:19 To [experiencial] know the [agape] love of Christ which passes knowledge ; that you may[choice to do eph 5:21] be filled with all the fullness of God. NKJ

fullness... eph 1:22-23, eph 4:13, eph 5:18

Please wrap some narrative around your words to explain what you are talking about.

Abbreviated proof-texts provide no reasoned response to me.

 

[OzSpen]

Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control (1 Tim 2:15 ESV).
Thanks, Oz

Context of 1 tim ? 1 tim 3:15

But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

1 tim 2:8 I will therefore that all men worship every where, lifting up holy[romans 12:10] hands, without wrath[flesh enemy James1:20,eph 4:30] and doubting[James 1:6, 1 cor 8:1-13]


9 In like manner also, that all women adorn themselves in modest[ 1peter 3:3] apparel, with propriety and moderation[1 cor 11:5-11]; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array [1 cor 11:31, 1 cor 5:12, 1 cor 6:2,4,mark 14:3, 1 sam 16:7]

10 But which becometh women professing godliness[eph 5:24] with good works
11 Let the woman learn[Matt 27:14] in calmness with all submission[1 peter 3:8,acts 5:29]
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach[james 3:1,1peter3:1], nor to usurp authority over the man[2 cor 11:3, 1 cor 7:3-16 ], but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve[Gen 2:21]
14 And Adam thus sinned and was not deceived, but the EVE being [completely]deceived was in the transgression[not sinned] .
15 Notwithstanding she[singular] shall be saved in [1 tim 3:11-12,5:14]childbearing, if they[plural eph 5:31 one flesh 1 peter 3:7] continue in faith[not doubting vs 8 husband vs 11 wife] love[vs 8 not angry] and holiness[1 tim 2:8] with self control.

I have more verses tired

This is proof-texting again. It provides no hermeneutical explanation of 1 Tim 2:15.

 

[Ignatius21]

I find this to be an example of dodging and weaving. If the only true church is the Eastern Orthodox Church, surely that is a statement that one cannot become a Christian and become a member of the body of Christ, the church, without being a member of the EOC?

Therefore, I as an evangelical Protestant cannot be a Christian as a member of the Church, the body of Christ, based on that understanding.

Oz

You will find EO responses on this point, to be on a spectrum. I believe Prodromos' answer (which is pretty much my answer also) to be at one end. At the other end is "No, you're not Christian, you are lost and damned because you have cut yourself off from the One True Church." Those who take up the latter position are quite often very legalistic in their Orthodoxy, and ironically, end up breaking off into sects that are out of communion with the Orthodox Church. Not terribly unlike the Montanists or Donatists of the early Church, who found the "mainline" Church to be too lax in this or that point.

It's something to wrestle with. The phenomenon of countless denominations is a very recent one in Christian history.

I believe that the Holy Spirit blows and moves as he wishes. I take to heart Jesus' words to his disciples, not to call down fire upon the other bands of people who cast out demons in Jesus' name. At the same time, though, I do accept the reality of Apostolic Succession as an essential part of the Church in this age. The Holy Spirit, the mysteries of the Church, and life in the Spirit are found within the bounds of these lines of succession and communion. Outside these lines I cannot say definitively.

If you have been baptized into the name of the Holy Trinity, I believe you are in fact baptized as a Christian. But when it comes to membership in the ecclesiastical body of Christ on earth, I can only say that you are not in communion with the Church of the Apostles. It makes no sense for me to say otherwise. I hope you won't find my words offensive, as you clearly already understand why I say it.

Our doors are always open

 

[prodromos]

I find this to be an example of dodging and weaving. If the only true church is the Eastern Orthodox Church, surely that is a statement that one cannot become a Christian and become a member of the body of Christ, the church, without being a member of the EOC?

Therefore, I as an evangelical Protestant cannot be a Christian as a member of the Church, the body of Christ, based on that understanding.

Oz

Jesus made a number of statements about what is required of us to enter into His kingdom, and yet the thief on the cross received the promise of salvation despite being unable to do any of those except to repent and seek God's mercy. Thus, while we hold fast to everything Jesus taught regarding salvation, we know too that God can, and does, save who He will.

 

[OzSpen]

I believe that the Holy Spirit blows and moves as he wishes. I take to heart Jesus' words to his disciples, not to call down fire upon the other bands of people who cast out demons in Jesus' name. At the same time, though, I do accept the reality of Apostolic Succession as an essential part of the Church in this age. The Holy Spirit, the mysteries of the Church, and life in the Spirit are found within the bounds of these lines of succession and communion. Outside these lines I cannot say definitively.

I find that to be contradictory: 'The Holy Spirit blows and moves as he wishes' and 'the reality of Apostolic Succession as an essential part of the Church in this age', and that involved 'the Holy Spirit ... life in the Spirit'. The Holy Spirit can't blow and move as He wishes if that is restricted only to the EOC. That excludes his moving among John Wesley & George Whitefield in the UK and Jonathan Edwards in the USA and elsewhere.

If you have been baptized into the name of the Holy Trinity, I believe you are in fact baptized as a Christian. But when it comes to membership in the ecclesiastical body of Christ on earth, I can only say that you are not in communion with the Church of the Apostles. It makes no sense for me to say otherwise. I hope you won't find my words offensive, as you clearly already understand why I say it.

Our doors are always open

I have been baptised by immersion in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, so you are saying I am 'baptized as a Christian'. But I know many people here in Australia who have been baptised in the name of the Trinity and they don't want to know God or walk in his ways. Such baptism doesn't guarantee salvation.

When it comes to 'membership in the ecclesiastical body of Christ on earth', I will choose the church that comes closest to what I understand are the core doctrines of the faith as articulated in Scripture.

In addition, I have other issues with the EOC. Does your church teach the following?

• prayer for the dead;
• praying to the dead;
• prayer to angels;
  
• icons as a meeting point between the living and the dead;
• the grace of God being active in the relics of the saints;
• salvation is to be found only in the EOC;
• the priest offers saving grace through the sacraments.

I'd appreciate your confirmation or disconfirmation of these beliefs.


Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Jesus made a number of statements about what is required of us to enter into His kingdom, and yet the thief on the cross received the promise of salvation despite being unable to do any of those except to repent and seek God's mercy. Thus, while we hold fast to everything Jesus taught regarding salvation, we know too that God can, and does, save who He will.

You say that you hold fast to what Jesus taught re salvation. I understand that one of your beliefs is that salvation is found only in the Eastern Orthodox Church. How do these statements line up with your view of salvation?

• The Greek Orthodox Diocese of America states, ' There is nothing that contributes to the salvation of the faithful which is not contained in the [Greek Orthodox] Church's ministry, its diakonia' (source).

• Russian Orthodox statement from PhD thesis: 'The Orthodox and the Protestant teachings on salvation do not exactly carry the same weight, as the Protestant teaching of "faith only" happens to be a 16th-century novelty that was born out of the protest against the abuses of the Papacy. Neither the Apostles, nor the Eastern Fathers, nor the Latin Fathers taught about salvation this way' (source).

Oz

 

[Bro in Christ]

Eph 3:19 To [experiencial] know the [agape] love of Christ which passes knowledge ; that you may[choice to do eph 5:21] be filled with all the fullness of God. NKJ

fullness... eph 1:22-23, eph 4:13,

what is the fullness to scripture....

eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

believers is the body of Christ=fullness of Christ

eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

when will the fullness be perfect .... eph 5:26-That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

when the church promises fulfilled !

 

[Bro in Christ]

Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control (1 Tim 2:15 ESV).
Thanks, Oz

Context of 1 tim ? 1 tim 3:15


But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

so with in your mind this is not between husband and wifes but only in public settings

1 tim 2:8 I will therefore that all men worship every where, lifting up holy[romans 12:10] hands, without wrath[flesh enemy James1:20,eph 4:30] and doubting[James 1:6, 1 cor 8:1-13]

We as believers are called to worship continually in 1 thes 5:17 to remind ourselves who is our God !
these verses are dealing with the individual words

9 In like manner also, that all women adorn themselves in modest[ 1peter 3:3] apparel, with propriety and moderation[1 cor 11:5-11]; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array [1 cor 11:31, 1 cor 5:12, 1 cor 6:2,4,mark 14:3, 1 sam 16:7]

other verses from God's word on clothes ....

10 But which becometh women professing godliness[eph 5:24] with good works

11 Let the woman learn[Matt 27:14] in calmness with all submission[1 peter 3:8,acts 5:29]

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach[james 3:1,1peter3:1], nor to usurp authority over the man[2 cor 11:3, 1 cor 7:3-16 ], but to be in silence.

lots of women get offended with this But they forget to look at all scripture Romans 16:1-3 mentions a husband and wife who servant themselves to others In Acts 18:26 the wife Priscilla explaining scripture to this man while her husband is with her!... He submitted to her spiritual gift

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve[Gen 2:21, 1 cor 14:40]

14 And Adam thus sinned and was not deceived, but the EVE being [completely]deceived was in the transgression[not sinned] .
[2 cor 11:3]

15 Notwithstanding she[singular] shall be saved in [1 tim 3:11-12,5:14]childbearing, if they[plural eph 5:31 one flesh 1 peter 3:7] continue in faith[not doubting vs 8 husband vs 11 wife] love[vs 8 not angry] and holiness[1 tim 2:8] with self control.


The childbearing is a promise to couples that if they hold on to this promise from God ... Husbands worshipping outloud and wives to submit in the Command by God they would be saved in Childbearing .. super naturally

 

[Ignatius21]

I find that to be contradictory: 'The Holy Spirit blows and moves as he wishes' and 'the reality of Apostolic Succession as an essential part of the Church in this age', and that involved 'the Holy Spirit ... life in the Spirit'. The Holy Spirit can't blow and move as He wishes if that is restricted only to the EOC.

I did not say the Holy Spirit's action is restricted to the confines of the EOC. I'm saying I will not restrict the Holy Spirit at all. Many of the Church Fathers believed that the Spirit was in some way even active among the pagans long before the Gospel came to them, preparing them to receive it, through the philosophers whose ideas came to be utilized (albeit, highly modified) to explain and clarify Christian thinking.

Paul preached to those in Athens who had built statues even to the "unknown god." He did not say they'd been blind to truth in all forms. He told them that the God they'd not yet found, was the true God, and then preached the Gospel to them.

Note also, I am not saying that the Holy Spirit is active in a saving way outside the EOC. I am saying I do not know how the Holy Spirit works. I do believe for certain, that the Holy Spirit is saving people in the EOC.

That excludes his moving among John Wesley & George Whitefield in the UK and Jonathan Edwards in the USA and elsewhere.

I am personally not prepared to say that nobody outside the EOC, who has heard the Gospel and believed and lived as a Christian, was never saved. Note that the EOC also believes that growth toward God continues after death. I will not say that John Wesley or Mother Theresa will be cast into a lake of fire because they were not under a particular bishop. I will say, though, that I believe that the EOC has the fullness of Christian truth and worship, and that it is where all Christians should be. I also believe that there is need for great humility on all sides, including and maybe especially on ours, as we strive to actually understand what others are saying, and recognize what we have in common rather than focus on what keeps us apart.

I have been baptised by immersion in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, so you are saying I am 'baptized as a Christian'. But I know many people here in Australia who have been baptised in the name of the Trinity and they don't want to know God or walk in his ways. Such baptism doesn't guarantee salvation.

It absolutely does not guarantee that a person will ultimately be saved. I hold baptism to be necessary but not sufficient. However, I do believe that even those who have received the sacrament and then fallen away into sin, are still recipients of that baptismal grace.

When it comes to 'membership in the ecclesiastical body of Christ on earth', I will choose the church that comes closest to what I understand are the core doctrines of the faith as articulated in Scripture.

Isnt' this another way of saying you will choose the Church that agrees with what Scripture says according to your traditions of interpreting it? Why is your tradition better than that of the EOC or anyone else? Why do you trust it?

In addition, I have other issues with the EOC. Does your church teach the following?

• prayer for the dead;

• 
  
  Yep. We don't believe in Purgatory or treasuries of merit, though.
  
  

  [*]praying to the dead;
  [*]prayer to angels;

  
  
  yes, we seek their intercession. We hold the saints to be above even the angels, because Christ became incarnate as man...thus the saints are united to God in a way that even angels cannot be.
  
  
  

  [*]icons as a meeting point between the living and the dead;

  
  No, they are a "meeting point" between the temporal and the eternal. We are alive, and so are the saints. We are all part of one body--Christ's.
  
  

  [*]the grace of God being active in the relics of the saints;

  
  Yes.
  
  

  [*]salvation is to be found only in the EOC;

  
  See above.
  
  

  [*]the priest offers saving grace through the sacraments.

The presence of God himself is made real to us in the sacraments. The priest does not control or dispense God. And grace--which is God's own uncreated presence--is not something that can be measured out, stored up, or transferred.

I'd appreciate your confirmation or disconfirmation of these beliefs.

I hope I answered them. Happy to expound more as needed.

 

[extraordinary]

... I believe that the EOC has the fullness of Christian truth and worship,
and that it is where all Christians should be.

In eternity, you will discover that you have been deceived.

Salvation is through a personal relationship with God the Father and God the Son,
and by being led by God the Holy Spirit, all of which causes the believer to be obedient
... while he/she is being sanctified unto holiness (without which no one will see the Lord).

Now, if your sacraments, etc. help in this process ... Praise the Lord.
.

 

[OzSpen]

In eternity, you will discover that you have been deceived.

Salvation is through a personal relationship with God the Father and God the Son,
and by being led by God the Holy Spirit, all of which causes the believer to be obedient
... while he/she is being sanctified unto holiness (without which no one will see the Lord).

Now, if your sacraments, etc. help in this process ... Praise the Lord.
.

Please provide biblical evidence for this kind correction. Otherwise, it is nothing more than a personal assertion.

 

[OzSpen]

Ignatius,

You say that you did not say that the Holy Spirit's action is restricted to the EOC. However, at #26, you stated:

I believe that the Holy Spirit blows and moves as he wishes. I take to heart Jesus' words to his disciples, not to call down fire upon the other bands of people who cast out demons in Jesus' name. At the same time, though, I do accept the reality of Apostolic Succession as an essential part of the Church in this age. The Holy Spirit, the mysteries of the Church, and life in the Spirit are found within the bounds of these lines of succession and communion. Outside these lines I cannot say definitively.
​

In the last 2 sentences you stated that the Holy Spirit and life in the Spirit are found 'within the bounds of these lines of succession and communion'. What lines of succession and communion? The Apostolic Succession of the EOC!
You say:

I will say, though, that I believe that the EOC has the fullness of Christian truth and worship, and that it is where all Christians should be
​

You provided too many examples in your response regarding icons, communicating with the dead, angels, etc. that are not compatible with Scripture. I would not be pursuing any EOC action.

Oz

I did not say the Holy Spirit's action is restricted to the confines of the EOC. I'm saying I will not restrict the Holy Spirit at all. Many of the Church Fathers believed that the Spirit was in some way even active among the pagans long before the Gospel came to them, preparing them to receive it, through the philosophers whose ideas came to be utilized (albeit, highly modified) to explain and clarify Christian thinking.

Paul preached to those in Athens who had built statues even to the "unknown god." He did not say they'd been blind to truth in all forms. He told them that the God they'd not yet found, was the true God, and then preached the Gospel to them.

Note also, I am not saying that the Holy Spirit is active in a saving way outside the EOC. I am saying I do not know how the Holy Spirit works. I do believe for certain, that the Holy Spirit is saving people in the EOC.

I am personally not prepared to say that nobody outside the EOC, who has heard the Gospel and believed and lived as a Christian, was never saved. Note that the EOC also believes that growth toward God continues after death. I will not say that John Wesley or Mother Theresa will be cast into a lake of fire because they were not under a particular bishop. I will say, though, that I believe that the EOC has the fullness of Christian truth and worship, and that it is where all Christians should be. I also believe that there is need for great humility on all sides, including and maybe especially on ours, as we strive to actually understand what others are saying, and recognize what we have in common rather than focus on what keeps us apart.



It absolutely does not guarantee that a person will ultimately be saved. I hold baptism to be necessary but not sufficient. However, I do believe that even those who have received the sacrament and then fallen away into sin, are still recipients of that baptismal grace.



Isnt' this another way of saying you will choose the Church that agrees with what Scripture says according to your traditions of interpreting it? Why is your tradition better than that of the EOC or anyone else? Why do you trust it?



Yep. We don't believe in Purgatory or treasuries of merit, though.

[/size]

yes, we seek their intercession. We hold the saints to be above even the angels, because Christ became incarnate as man...thus the saints are united to God in a way that even angels cannot be.




No, they are a "meeting point" between the temporal and the eternal. We are alive, and so are the saints. We are all part of one body--Christ's.



Yes.



See above.



The presence of God himself is made real to us in the sacraments. The priest does not control or dispense God. And grace--which is God's own uncreated presence--is not something that can be measured out, stored up, or transferred.



I hope I answered them. Happy to expound more as needed.

 

[extraordinary]

The Extra said:
Salvation is through a personal relationship with God the Father and God the Son,
and by being led by God the Holy Spirit, all of which causes the believer to be obedient
... while he/she is being sanctified unto holiness (without which no one will see the Lord).

Please provide biblical evidence for this kind correction. Otherwise, it is nothing more than a personal assertion.

Okay, here are a few ...

John 10:27-28
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish

John 17:3
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God,
and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Romans 6:16-19
Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey,
you are that one’s slaves whom you obey,
whether (slaves) of sin leading to death,
OR (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness
... so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

How many more obedience verses do you require? ... there are 10 or so.

Hebrews 12:14-15
Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:
looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God
[FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

 

[prodromos]

You provided too many examples in your response regarding icons, communicating with the dead, angels, etc. that are not compatible with Scripture. I would not be pursuing any EOC action.

That pretty much sums up what my initial response was when I was first exposed to Eastern Orthodoxy. But it was a response born out of ignorance and from being steeped in the Protestant Evangelical tradition. Once I began to research the history and what the actual beliefs of Orthodoxy were (not the false picture I had formed out of my lack of understanding) I found they were not just compatible with Scripture but were completely complementary.

 

[Ignatius21]

Okay, here are a few ...

John 10:27-28
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish

John 17:3
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God,
and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Romans 6:16-19
Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey,
you are that one’s slaves whom you obey,
whether (slaves) of sin leading to death,
OR (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness
... so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

How many more obedience verses do you require? ... there are 10 or so.

Hebrews 12:14-15
Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:
looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God
[FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

I have these same verses in my Bible too!

But I'm lost as to what you think you are proving with them. Where did I deny any of what is said here?

 

[Ignatius21]

You provided too many examples in your response regarding icons, communicating with the dead, angels, etc. that are not compatible with Scripture. I would not be pursuing any EOC action.

Oz

Oz,

You've once again hit on the key difference between us. And it was the key difference for me also, when I first encountered Orthodoxy.

It isn't what you're saying, but rather what you are not saying. If I can fill in as best I can, based on our past interactions...

"You provided too many examples...regarding icons...etc...that are not compatible with [my interpretation of Scripture, which is informed from Evangelical Protestant traditions about Scripture, its interpretation and applicaiotns, and presuppositions about what the Church is and where it is found, and based on a hermeneutical method of Critical Realism, which largely dates to the 20th Century and is mostly the product of Evangelical Protestant theologians]."

Without mincing words, your hermeneutic (and the philosophy behind it) is a TRADITION. So I have to ask, on what basis is your tradition--or that of McGrath or Wright or other "critical realists"--to be preferred over the much older and much broader orthodox/catholic tradition?

The fact that the answers I gave above, don't measure up to your understanding of Scripture, could mean that I (and a huge portion of Christians going back to the early Church Fathers on most of those topics) are all wrong. Or, it could mean that your tradition of protestant hermeneutics and critical realism fails to measure up to the tradition of the Church.

Just something for consideration. But really, I'd like to hear your answer on why your tradition of interpreting Scripture, is better than Orthodoxy's. Where is Critical Realism found in Scripture?

 

[extraordinary]

I have these same verses in my Bible too!
But I'm lost as to what you think you are proving with them.
Where did I deny any of what is said here?

I tink I wuz responding to the OzSpenster ... but I could be wrong.
Anything's possible these days ... like BACs going to Hell.
.