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Reasoning Errors

JD16

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Hi JD. I'm sorry for some reason I did not see this before. I'm multi-tasking. Thank you. That is useful.

I'm also sort of gathering these to help me with dialogue with friends/family members to aid them in understanding that a critique of logic does not = you're a bad person or stupid or something to an atheist. Well not to this atheist anyway lol. It simply means what it is.. and only what it is.. an error in the way you're processing information.

So, these are helpful..

I'd still implore more input on the WHYS of why fallacies (I want to stay away from the term because I feel it's so overused that people knee jerkingly feel attacked ...) are determined to be errors.

Np at all
So true, too many people takes it personally and feel 'under attack' when its pointed out to them,... and it goes downhill from there. [Staff edit].
 
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Khalliqa

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[Staff edit].

I really think everyone is capable of good dialogue just not always prepared to do so in the healthiest way...

What did you think about my question regarding the "whys" because I thought if we just discuss the identification of reasoning errors we don't really dig into the purpose of pointing them out. I will admit I don't always have the answers for that.. :-/

So this is part informative post and part query.. as in "ya'll help me out please" lol.
 
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Khalliqa

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Also it doesn't help that my computer keeps kicking me out mid-post! But I was trying to add:

I don't really want to do an "aha! gotcha you're stupid and here's why post.." more of a "come on guys let's be mature about this and really try to understand another using the best methods available to sort through our positions" kind of thing
 
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Khalliqa

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Also it doesn't help that my computer keeps kicking me out mid-post! But I was trying to add:

I don't really want to do an "aha! gotcha you're stupid and here's why post.." more of a "come on guys let's be mature about this and really try to understand another using the best methods available to sort through our positions" kind of thing
 
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JD16

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What did you think about my question regarding the "whys" because I thought if we just discuss the identification of reasoning errors we don't really dig into the purpose of pointing them out. I will admit I don't always have the answers for that.. :-/

So this is part informative post and part query.. as in "ya'll help me out please" lol

The 'whys' I think is pretty personal, it varies from person to person, but in general I'm guessing its a defence mechanism, to avoid cognitive dissonance,...and most people use that term liberally,...there is a difference between doublethink,..which is to hold 2 different conflicting thoughts simoustanly, and cognitive dissonance, which is the resulting discomfort when they realise that the 2 thoughts cannot be reconciled. The main difference is being made aware of it, as long as the person who holds conflicting thoughts are not aware of it, there will not be any discomfort, but once they are aware of it,...the excuses start flying and the mental gymnastics begin....

Doublethink - Wikipedia

The best example I can think of is God's omniscient and man's freewill

If God is omniscient, then it necessarily follows that man has no free will,
If God knows that a person at a certain traffic junction is going to turn left,
That person has no choice but to turn left, as turning right would violate God's omniscient

Why is that troubling? If man has no freewill then everything is preordained, and there is no justice in sending a person to hell when that person had no choice. But if man has freewill, then its either God is not omniscient ( in that case is he still fit to hold the title God?) Or God does not exist. And you can see why such thoughts would inflict severe discomfort to a believer, and the why the mental gymnastics employed to lessen the discomfort.
 
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Khalliqa

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I'm sorry. I meant the WHYS for the fallacies. Why they exist. In other words: Circular reasoning is called a fallacy because.. and this is important because..

We don't want to get caught using non sequitors because..

We can define it and identify it but I'd like to explain WHY that is so..

It may be obvious and even self explanatory to some but not to all.. Watching that other thread I kept hoping that some explanation would come behind it..
 
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JD16

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Ah, I get you now, from experience the best way to explain is to use analogy, in terms that the person you are trying to point out the fallacy to is familiar with and can easily understand...construct an analogy with the said fallacy and then relate it to what the person said and point out the similarities. But it all depends on how receptive that person is, and how committed to the subject being discussed. If its regarding faith, you can expect a relentless defence of it and extreme resistance to what you are presenting...
 
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Khalliqa

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Hi JD..

I think I've been spoiled by my bf.. he is the most understanding man I've ever met.. I've come to respect him a lot.. Meaning I've thrown some doozies at him and he respectfully takes it all in.. acknowledges where he's lacking; he never makes excuses for fallacies.. and will admit it's one but not one that overrides either his emotions or what he's comfortable with.. and I respect him for that.. we reach an agree to disagree moment then decide whether this issue weighs more heavily than our love for one another.. No issue ever has.. and he's given me better perspective and patience for those that think differently than me.. e.g. My first query was why are you pursuing me? You know I'm an atheist? Don't you think I'm going to hell? lol.. His response was that it wasn't his place to determine my fate after I die.. It was his duty to be good and be a good example and love as much as he could.. That actually made me lurve him.. Okay.. I'm talking about him now because I kind of miss him.. He's at work and so am I and he's on my mind..
But I'm derailing my own thread with mushiness lol..

So, I'm used to dealing with reasonable people of faith.. :-/

I keep erroneously thinking the days of "Obey god or be a satan worshipping heathen and that's my answer to everything!" days are over lol...

I remember them when I was child but have met many more mature people since then..


You're right I think determining which explanation to use depends on the audience.. I just wish there were more focus on it because I could get more ideas to help others understand as well..
 
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Kenny'sID

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1. Circular Reasoning
- Attempts at arguments by assuming what you're trying to prove is true (common example: bible is true because the bible says it's true)

Kinda like one who does the same with evolution...actually, exactly the same thing.

As in..."Because scientists say it's true", and in answer to the predicted comeback, "No, they don't"

Eg. Science can't disprove God, so therefore God is Real

Nor can sceince prove where we came from, and from there a little logic/common sense goes a long way.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Also it doesn't help that my computer keeps kicking me out mid-post! But I was trying to add:

I don't really want to do an "aha! gotcha you're stupid and here's why post.." more of a "come on guys let's be mature about this and really try to understand another using the best methods available to sort through our positions" kind of thing

...that would be nice. But, being that everyone has their own respective levels of cognition and conceptual processing, I'm afraid the rational effort to bring uniformity to the variety of individual human perceptions of the world is ... fraught with the perils of "Wonderland." :cool:
 
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Khalliqa

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Kinda like one who does the same with evolution...actually, exactly the same thing.

As in..."Because scientists say it's true", and in answer to the predicted comeback, "No, they don't"



Nor can sceince prove where we came from, and from there a little logic/common sense goes a long way.


I can agree with this to some extent. But I don't know too many atheists that use the term science in the same way that a theist speaks of god.. Science is not an entity with ultimate authority which is seen as infallible and cannot be challenged.. Science is a tool (like grammar- bad example but the best I can think of right now) that can be corrected, challenged etc.. I think what you may be getting within an atheist attitude is that the idea of science takes precedence over other chosen tools of determining truth or what's best.. like scriptures, theophanies, prayer etc..

IF an atheist or anyone says that "This scientific study is true because it says it's true," you are correct that would be circular reasoning and it would also be a reference to something that's not a scientific study. Scientific studies inherently are not produced through circular reasoning as they must prove theories within the bounds of logic, reasoning and evidence.

[Staff edit].
 
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JD16

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Kinda like one who does the same with evolution...actually, exactly the same thing.

As in..."Because scientists say it's true", and in answer to the predicted comeback, "No, they don't"

The difference is, science is subjected to peer review, and fraud is easily exposed. Not so with faith


Nor can sceince prove where we came from, and from there a little logic/common sense goes a long way.

The point is, there is no urgent need to know,....and speculating will not bring us closer to the answer. And if we were to go along with your common sense, what would the conclusion be? That there must be a creator? And if so which creator, and what makes your prefered creator special over the rest?

But I digress, the point of this thread as the OP mention is to discuss why such fallacy is made and how to point it out to others and encourage them to not to commit such fallacy,...what I mention in my post is just for illustration purpose
 
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Khalliqa

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...that would be nice. But, being that everyone has their own respective levels of cognition and conceptual processing, I'm afraid the rational effort to bring uniformity to the variety of individual human perceptions of the world is ... fraught with the perils of "Wonderland." :cool:

Fair.. and I agree.. but I'm optimistic :-D Maybe hopelessly so? If so, ion't currr.. I believe in folks ability to rise above emotion.. or at least apply it in a civil way..
 
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Khalliqa

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The difference is, science is subjected to peer review, and fraud is easily exposed. Not so with faith




The point is, there is no urgent need to know,....and speculating will not bring us closer to the answer. And if we were to go along with your common sense, what would the conclusion be? That there must be a creator? And if so which creator, and what makes your prefered creator special over the rest?

But I digress, the point of this thread as the OP mention is to discuss why such fallacy is made and how to point it out to others and encourage them to not to commit such fallacy,...what I mention in my post is just for illustration purpose

That was a better explanation and thank you for trying to bring it back! I think fallacious studies? lolololol should be ingrained in the curriculum! I keep repeating it because I fervently believe it will do all some good.. okay I've got to get back to work
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Fair.. and I agree.. but I'm optimistic :-D Maybe hopelessly so? If so, ion't currr.. I believe in folks ability to rise above emotion.. or at least apply it in a civil way..

...sometimes they can, Khalliqa. Sometimes... :rolleyes: ...assuming that they were born with the mental and emotional stability, the learning aptitude, the intelligence quotient, and the local access (and financial means) to take advantage of a good education led by good teachers, that make rising above emotion and relying on rational capacities possible.

There's kind of a lot that goes into bringing some uniformity to people on all levels. But, again, it would be nice. :cool:

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
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Khalliqa

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Am I allowed to post the actual words from a link? If so, here is an article which I think addresses the importance of studying fallacies and addresses the "why" they are necessary. At least it attempts to do so with some degree of satisfaction but I'm still on the hunt for something that grasps the importance personally..

Here is the link:Learn How to Be Open Minded

by Arthur by Austin Cline

Why bother to learn more about logic and arguments? Does it really matter and does it really help anyone? As a matter of fact, yes it does - and there are several good reasons to take the time to learn more about both topics.

The most immediate and obvious benefit from such a study is that it can allow you to improve the quality of the arguments you use. When you create logically unsound arguments, you are much less likely to convince people that you have a valid point to make, or get them to agree with you.

Even if they aren't familiar with logic, many people will realize that there is something wrong with some fallacious arguments without being able to identify the fallacy involved.

A second and closely related benefit will be an improved ability to evaluate the arguments of others. When you understand how arguments are supposed to be constructed and also how they shouldn't be constructed, you will find all sorts of bad arguments out there. You may even be surprised to find out how many people are swayed by bad arguments.

Although you may not realize it immediately, there are arguments all around us vying for our attention and acceptance. We hear arguments that we should buy car A rather than car B. We hear arguments that we should vote for politician Smith rather than for politician Jones. We hear arguments that we should adopt this social policy rather than that social policy.

In all of these cases, people are making or should be making arguments - and because they are trying to get you to believe their conclusions, you have to be able to evaluate those arguments.

If you can demonstrate that an argument is sound and valid, not only do you have reason to accept it, but you can also defend this acceptance whenever someone asks you why you have done it.

But when you can identify bad arguments, it will be easier for you to free yourself from beliefs which are not well founded.

It also allows you to challenge people making claims which you think are suspect, but you would otherwise have difficulty in explaining why. That won't always be easy, because we often have a heavy emotional and psychological investment in some beliefs, regardless of their validity. Still, having such tools at your disposal can only aid you in this process.

Unfortunately, the argument that prevails is usually the one which gets said loudest and last, regardless of its actual validity. When it appeals to people's emotions, it can even have a better chance of looking superior. But you shouldn't allow others to fool you into believing their claims just because they were persistent - you need to be able to challenge and question their assertions.

A further benefit will also hopefully be an ability to communicate more clearly and effectively. Muddled writing tends to come from muddled thinking, and that in turn tends to come from a poor understanding of what a person is trying to convey and why. But when you know how an argument should and should not be presented, it will be easier to un-muddle those ideas and reform them into a stronger pattern.

And while this may be a site dealing with atheism, it is also a site which deals with skepticism - and not just skepticism about religion.

Skeptical inquiry about all topics requires an ability to use logic and argumentation effectively. You will have good cause to use such skills when it comes to the claims made by politicians and advertisers, not just religion, because people in those professions commit logical errors and fallacies on a regular basis.

Of course, simply explaining the ideas behind logic and arguments isn't enough - you need to see and work with actual instances of the fallacies. That's why this FAQ is filled with numerous examples of everything described. It is important to remember that clear, logical writing is only something that will come with practice. The more you read and the more you write, the better you will get - this isn't a skill that you can acquire passively.

This site's forum is a good place where you can get such practice.

Not all of the writing there is of the highest caliber, of course, and not all of the topics will be interesting or good. But over time, you will see some very good argumentation on a wide variety of topics. By reading and participating, you will have the opportunity to learn quite a lot. Even some of the best posters there will readily acknowledge that their time in the forum has improved their abilities to think and write on these issues.
 
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miknik5

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A portion of the link attached by Kalliqa:

Critical thinking makes use of the tools of logic and science because it values skepticism over gullibility or dogmatism, reason over faith, the science of pseudoscience, and rationality over wishful thinking.


This is what you are trying to teach and encourage as the proper way to unity?

All it is is a hope and an attempt to appeal to man's emotions that if they remove GOD, there will be unity.

This supports unbelievers
And all on a Christian Apologetics Forum
 
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Khalliqa

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...sometimes they can, Khalliqa. Sometimes... :rolleyes: ...assuming that they were born with the mental and emotional stability, the learning aptitude, the intelligence quotient, and the local access (and financial means) to take advantage of a good education led by good teachers, that make rising above emotion and relying on rational capacities possible.

There's kind of a lot that goes into bringing some uniformity to people on all levels. But, again, it would be nice. :cool:

Peace,
2PhiloVoid



Sometimes true.. but to go offtopic I'm a big proponent of autodidactism as the goal of a public education (sounds contradictory but it is not).. and the capacity of everyone whatever their level to learn in the best way possible.. the guides have to be interested in matching their learning style to the material.. and by learning style I don't necessarily mean set psychological habits.. but more acknowledging a person where they are..

I homeschooled my children off a budget of less than $500 a year lol (I initially wrote month) and they went to college on full academic scholarships and the state govt implored me to share my curriculum. Sometimes it takes the vision and the will to want to get a certain desired result..

BTW my curricula was based off analogies and critical thinking :-D
 
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JD16

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here is an article which I think addresses the importance of studying fallacies and addresses the "why" they are necessary. At least it attempts to do so with some degree of satisfaction but I'm still on the hunt for something that grasps the importance personally..

As a person who values rationality over an appeal to emotions, the importance of being logically consistent speaks for itself. But to convince others, it really depends on their personality. As you mention before, it depends on the audience, and how reasonable or how receptive they are of the message. As 2PhiloVoid mention, its almost impossible to expect uniformity.

If a person values being 'right' against all odds, there is nothing getting tru to them. It seems like the best way to go about it is to tailor our response to each individual, and of course, its highly depend on the subject matter being discussed. Politics and religion are the usual 'bombs' that explodes in our face when handled wrongly
 
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Meowzltov

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2. Faith
- Is actually confirmation bias - you want info/data to be in alignment with one's beliefs and so you interpret it as being in alignment with your beliefs (common example "If you pray for x it will occur")
It depends what you mean by faith.

Healthy faith is not irrational. If science proves the earth is round, a healthy faith doesn't say the earth is flat. If we know the earth is 5.4 billion years old, a healthy faith doesn't insist it is 6000 years old.

A healthy faith therefore pursues what is rational. Think about the Christian existentialists -- they were extremely rational philosophers, pushing reason to its very limits. BUT when they reached the wall where reason ended, they stepped through in faith. You can think of it in terms of probability. If something is 95% probable, you can pretty much consider it proven. But what if it is only 65% probable? Then it is not irrational to step out in faith and believe it is true.
 
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