Reasoned discussion

[Susan]

Read the book? "Lemon For Christians 101?"

Never.

 

[MizDoulos]

Please Note: &nbsp&nbspI suggest everyone take a breather at this point. If you have a personal complaint, please do not air it publicly. Use your e-mail or private message option to resolve conflicts.

Also, I suggest not using descriptive words of one another that would cause disharmony. Let's try to keep the focus on the issues and not turn this thread into a personal conflict.

If this thread continues to deteriorate, it will be closed.

 

[Andrew]

"Tim LaHaye is normally one of my favorite authors, but that book is a shame to his reputation and formerly somewhat good name..."

Well Tim LaHaye is up there, happily married with kids and has the qualification and a well-recognised and well-respected ministry among his peers. You are not. It would do you well to humble yourself and listen to those who are in spiritual authority and who are called to minister in that area.

But if you think you know better than them, then God help you.

 

[Susan]

Originally posted by Andrew
Well Tim LaHaye is up there, happily married with kids and has the qualification and a well-recognised and well-respected ministry among his peers. You are not. It would do you well to humble yourself and listen to those who are in spiritual authority and who are called to minister in that area.

But if you think you know better than them, then God help you.

So now it is the guilt snare. I have heard of and in some cases seen "spiritual authority" and "humbling yourself under spiritual authority" being used to enforce all kinds of legalistic requirements and rules. Some examples of those would be KJV Only teaching, refusal to go to doctors when ill, arranged marriages, regulations on what you can or cannot read, adult married children living in subjection obedience to their parents, and so many other "rules and traditions of men."

"Spiritual authority" is a principle that can be abused when it is turned into "the mindless following of an unquestioned leader." It sets up the equivalent of "Protestant popes" that actually have more power over their followers and less checks on personal ambition than the Catholic Pope ever would have.

Also, merely because people are right on one issue does not mean they are right on everything spiritually. For instance, fundamentalist Muslims condemn fornication. Does this mean we should all go out and declare jihad tomorrow? Or more to the point, Jack Chick proclaims the Gospel. Does that mean I must unquestioningly believe the 90 percent of his writing, website, and tract that is patent nonsense?

Because Tim LaHaye is correct in prophecy, does that mean I have to believe unquestioningly the words of a sex book he writes?

I may sound like a liberal, but I believe the only ultimate "spiritual authority" is the Bible.

 

[Susan]

I would like to discuss this some more with I can eat 50 eggs and Gabriel, both of which seemed capable of discussing this in a nonargumentative and mature fashion, rather than simply accusing me of not bowing down to "spiritual authority."

 

[Susan]

-bump- to put this above the spam

 

[Gabriel]

  Susan!

 

We are all different.  My wife and I enjoy a healthy, balanced sex life.  It does not take away from our spiritual life as we put God first above all things/people.  Even each other.  I do disagree with you in that sex is for pro-creation only.  The bible in no way dictates this.  However, we are entitled to our own person feelings and expression of sexual feelings.  Just because yours are different than mine does not make either of them wrong.

I believe that 2 married consenting adults are allowed to enjoy each other any way they see fit as long as it does not involve sin.  Pornography is a sin, in my opinion, because you are invloving another person or persons in your sexual experience.  Aids or "toys" are not, again in my opinion, wrong.  If both of you are not comfortable with their use, however it would be wrong and sinful to force or trick someone else to use them.

The real problem I see here is that we keep referring to sex.  Animals have sex.  Humans make love.  And that intimate expression between husband and wife is a wonderful thing.  There is nothing dirty about it.

I know this is very personal and I don't want to offend you, but it almost sounds as if you, or someone close to you, was a victim of sexual abuse.  Or perhaps someone at some point instilled in you that sex was dirty, painful, or demeaning.  I would suggest that you seek out a female author.  Susan Hunt is very good.  James Dobson may have a good book on the subject of intimacy.  i would certainly not trust a subject like this to someone who makes a living writing fiction and mis-interpreting scripture.  Sorry Tim

You are young.  But not so young that you are still a kid.  Try not to form too many negative opinions about this subject.  One day you will meet a nice christian man and you may feel the fire (after you're married, or course) that is real intimate loving desire and you will be glad that you kept an open mind.  Paul tells us in Corinthians that it is better to marry than to burn.  Burn with passion and desire is what he means.  That is deeper than pro creation, don't you think?  It is about deep and burning longing for the one you love.

I apologize for the brow beating that you have received.  It is silly on their part, because the more they try to change your mind, the stronger your convictions become, eh?

 

[Caedmon]

I'm worried for you Susan. I wish you didn't take such a negative view of pleasure in marital intimacy.

Look at this...

Your stature is like a palm tree,
And your breasts are like its clusters.
I said, 'I will climb the palm tree,
I will take hold of its fruit stalks.'
- Song of Solomon 7:7&8a

I don't see anything necessarily directly procreative about that individual action, but what I do see is the bridegroom taking passionate joy in his bride's body.

I regard procreation and pleasure in equal esteem. I believe that both deserve an equal opportunity in marriage, just as do faith and works in our spiritual lives. I believe that both can and should be freely participated in without worry, procreation opening the door to blessings in the form of children, and pleasure opening the door to blessings in the form of intimacy and closeness of husband and wife. They are a team working together to raise a family, and these two facets of intimacy work together to create a whole, fulfilling experience for them.

I'm praying for you Susan. I pray that God will take care of you and give you the answers you need to hear. Take care...

 

[Andrew]

"I apologize for the brow beating that you have received.ÊÊIt isÊsilly on their part, becauseÊthe more they try to change your mind, the stronger your convictions become, eh?"

No need to apologise on my behalf becos she is the one being silly and foolish, not me!

 

[Susan]

Andrew, please stop trying to derail/close this thread with your ad hominem insults.

 

[MizDoulos]

Since the warning message posted earlier has gone unheeded with continued conflicts between some members, the thread has been closed.