Reasonable Force

[z3ro]

I'd give him my wallet, but I would not get into a submissive position, i.e. - lay on the ground with your hands behind your head. This goes for a potential mugging on the street. In my house, I am fighting every step of the way, weapon or no.

I never said be submissive; if you read my post, I said I'd throw my wallet and run. And I agree about fighting in the house.

 

[vipertaja]

but I would not get into a submissive position, i.e. - lay on the ground with your hands behind your head. This goes for a potential mugging on the street. In my house, I am fighting every step of the way, weapon or no.

Congratulations...you're dead. It's just the way it is...if he has a gun and
you make a sudden move you have a new one between your eyes.
Still...I guess one can always try...

EDIT: On the street running is an option though I guess.

 

[Alecto]

Congratulations...you're dead. It's just the way it is...if he has a gun and
you make a sudden move you have a new one between your eyes.
Still...I guess one can always try...

EDIT: On the street running is an option though I guess.

Thats why you hose an intruder down before they can draw a weapon.

 

[vipertaja]

Thats why you hose an intruder down before they can draw a weapon.

Yes...that is why one goes back in time and does just that.

 

[Seeking...]

Congratulations...you're dead. It's just the way it is...if he has a gun and
you make a sudden move you have a new one between your eyes.
Still...I guess one can always try...

EDIT: On the street running is an option though I guess.

Fine, death is not the worse thing that can happen to me. I have to go by what history has taught me, my gut feelings and common sense.

In your house - if the intruder realizes someone is at home, and they haven't seen his face, but he doesn't bolt - he is prepared for violence anyway.

On the street - if he doesn't just grab your stuff and run, but wants you to get into a more submissive position or move you to another location - he is prepared for violence anyway.

 

[vipertaja]

Fine, death is not the worse thing that can happen to me. I have to go by what history has taught me, my gut feelings and common sense.

In your house - if the intruder realizes someone is at home, and they haven't seen his face, but he doesn't bolt - he is prepared for violence anyway.

On the street - if he doesn't just grab your stuff and run, but wants you to get into a more submissive position or move you to another location - he is prepared for violence anyway.

True, true. I understand you point of view. I merely stated what almost
certainly happens in the particular situation. It is more than reasonable to
bash someone in the head with something if they haven't tried to
announce their precense in your house and caution is good even if they
have. I also realise of course why one would not want to be submissive
especially being a woman...it adds a whole other aspect to it.

 

[DaRkWoLf]

Congratulations...you're dead. It's just the way it is...if he has a gun and
you make a sudden move you have a new one between your eyes.
Still...I guess one can always try...

EDIT: On the street running is an option though I guess.

You would be really really suprised. This is out of the scope of this forum, but lemme discuss it a tiny bit.

Drawing vs a drawn gun is very possible with practice. It takes work and practice, but if one is going to carry a gun every day, then one might as well learn to use it right.

Firstly, most criminals arent that great with guns, this is not saying underestimate your opponent, but it is saying that there is a fighting chance. Many things suggest that defiance alone will make some criminals hesitate.

Second, nothing is keeping you from moving. Depending on the position, this can be a big part of life or death. One must be calm, controlled and swift for it to work.

My dad and I, in adition to some friends, have simmed situations out using airsoft pistols or the real deal (but checked and unloaded of course). The results are very encouraging. I have gotten to the point that in an open carry holster (i dont have a concealed carry holster, namely because i cant carry till im 21) with a full sized 1911, and dad droping a quarter at waist level for timing, I can have the weapon out in a weaver stance and pull the trigger, before the quarter hits the ground. If you dont believe, I can record it and host it on my site.

There is most definately a fighing chance in that situation, believe it or not.

 

[vipertaja]

You would be really really suprised. This is out of the scope of this forum, but lemme discuss it a tiny bit.

Drawing vs a drawn gun is very possible with practice. It takes work and practice, but if one is going to carry a gun every day, then one might as well learn to use it right.

Firstly, most criminals arent that great with guns, this is not saying underestimate your opponent, but it is saying that there is a fighting chance. Many things suggest that defiance alone will make some criminals hesitate.

Second, nothing is keeping you from moving. Depending on the position, this can be a big part of life or death. One must be calm, controlled and swift for it to work.

My dad and I, in adition to some friends, have simmed situations out using airsoft pistols or the real deal (but checked and unloaded of course). The results are very encouraging. I have gotten to the point that in an open carry holster (i dont have a concealed carry holster, namely because i cant carry till im 21) with a full sized 1911, and dad droping a quarter at waist level for timing, I can have the weapon out in a weaver stance and pull the trigger, before the quarter hits the ground. If you dont believe, I can record it and host it on my site.

There is most definately a fighing chance in that situation, believe it or not.

Yes, of course if one is a "militant self-defender" like the increasing lot in
the US are and carries a gun there is a slight chance of a "duck and draw"
being faster and even hitting a junkie or whatever is trying his luck.
Notice though that simulation is never reality...you don't have fear in a
simulation and it changes the whole game.

 

[z3ro]

You would be really really suprised. This is out of the scope of this forum, but lemme discuss it a tiny bit.

Drawing vs a drawn gun is very possible with practice. It takes work and practice, but if one is going to carry a gun every day, then one might as well learn to use it right.

Firstly, most criminals arent that great with guns, this is not saying underestimate your opponent, but it is saying that there is a fighting chance. Many things suggest that defiance alone will make some criminals hesitate.

Second, nothing is keeping you from moving. Depending on the position, this can be a big part of life or death. One must be calm, controlled and swift for it to work.

My dad and I, in adition to some friends, have simmed situations out using airsoft pistols or the real deal (but checked and unloaded of course). The results are very encouraging. I have gotten to the point that in an open carry holster (i dont have a concealed carry holster, namely because i cant carry till im 21) with a full sized 1911, and dad droping a quarter at waist level for timing, I can have the weapon out in a weaver stance and pull the trigger, before the quarter hits the ground. If you dont believe, I can record it and host it on my site.

There is most definately a fighing chance in that situation, believe it or not.

So you subscribe to the theory of "it's better to be tried by twelve than carried by six," eh?

 

[Phred]

I used to work in a sporting goods store and I sold guns. One day a guy came in... looked at a few pistols and then noticed a Daisy dart gun. (You've surely seen them, look just like a .45 caliber pistol but it shoots darts and bbs.) The guy, it turns out, owned a bar. He said a "buncha Mexicans" kept getting rowdy out back of his place and he just wanted to scare them away.

Anyone else see the flaw in that logic? If you aim a weapon at someone you'd best be prepared to pull the trigger. If you pull the trigger you'd best realize that you're likely to kill the other person. If the other person has a weapon too, they're going to try to kill you before you can kill them. I've often wondered what happened when one of the "Mexicans" pulled out his gun... think he was surprised to find a dart in his leather jacket after they hauled him away for killing the bartender?

Guns are deadly serious. One shot or twelve, doesn't matter. If I were presented with an intruder that I felt was enough of a threat to aim at, I'd fire and keep shooting until I was certain he wasn't a threat anymore. Can you seriously tell me that sometime between the fifth and sixth shots I crossed a line between self-defense and offense? Nonsense.

.
​

 

[vipertaja]

I used to work in a sporting goods store and I sold guns. One day a guy came in... looked at a few pistols and then noticed a Daisy dart gun. (You've surely seen them, look just like a .45 caliber pistol but it shoots darts and bbs.) The guy, it turns out, owned a bar. He said a "buncha Mexicans" kept getting rowdy out back of his place and he just wanted to scare them away.

Anyone else see the flaw in that logic? If you aim a weapon at someone you'd best be prepared to pull the trigger. If you pull the trigger you'd best realize that you're likely to kill the other person. If the other person has a weapon too, they're going to try to kill you before you can kill them. I've often wondered what happened when one of the "Mexicans" pulled out his gun... think he was surprised to find a dart in his leather jacket after they hauled him away for killing the bartender?

Guns are deadly serious. One shot or twelve, doesn't matter. If I were presented with an intruder that I felt was enough of a threat to aim at, I'd fire and keep shooting until I was certain he wasn't a threat anymore. Can you seriously tell me that sometime between the fifth and sixth shots I crossed a line between self-defense and offense? Nonsense.

Very good point there.

 

[Lokisdottir]

Congratulations...you're dead. It's just the way it is...if he has a gun and
you make a sudden move you have a new one between your eyes.
Still...I guess one can always try...

EDIT: On the street running is an option though I guess.

Highly unlikely. It is difficult to hit a moving target, and the chances of getting a good, clean shot between the eyes is very unlikely. The average lowlife criminal just doesn't have that kind of weapons training, and even if he does, you still have a fighting chance if you just keep moving.

I figure my odds are about the same either way. If I resist, he's more likely to get angry and try to hurt me. If I submit, he might just hurt me anyway (or worse, as Seeking said).

As a woman, my situation is different, because if I get attacked, there's a good chance he'll be after more than just my wallet... and if I submit, that will only make things worse, guaranteed.

 

[vipertaja]

Highly unlikely. It is difficult to hit a moving target, and the chances of getting a good, clean shot between the eyes is very unlikely. The average lowlife criminal just doesn't have that kind of weapons training, and even if he does, you still have a fighting chance if you just keep moving.

I was mainly speaking of point blank range...as a mugger is unlikely to use a
megaphone to declare his evil intentions.

 

[Lokisdottir]

I was mainly speaking of point blank range...as a mugger is unlikely to use a
megaphone to declare his evil intentions.

Well, true. I guess I'm just speaking from my own perspective, here. I'm a very hard person to sneak up on. I have a sort of spidey sense.

For the average person, it's good to get in the habit of being aware of your surroundings when you're out walking in public. Pay attention to what you're hearing, occasionally glance behind you and to the sides. Be aware of what people around you are doing. Don't be paranoid, but do be cautious. It pays off.

 

[vipertaja]

For the average person, it's good to get in the habit of being aware of your surroundings when you're out walking in public. Pay attention to what you're hearing, occasionally glance behind you and to the sides. Be aware of what people around you are doing. Don't be paranoid, but do be cautious. It pays off.

Well, I'm not the kind of guy to be out alone late so it's no problem for me
really. And people tend to mostly keep a distance, so I would notice the one
out of line there.

A spidey sense would be damn handy though.

 

[DaRkWoLf]

I was mainly speaking of point blank range...as a mugger is unlikely to use a
megaphone to declare his evil intentions.

FYI, pont blank is an artillery term (some shooters get annoyed when one says point blank, I remember when I got yelled at for it lol)

Even at short range it is very possible to defeat an oponent in gunfighting even if the oponent has a gun out. It takes calmness (no one knows how one reacts until something like that happens, so the best thing to do if your worried about it is just act calm in day to day life, and a familiarity with ones weapon.

Sporadic, unexpected movement at short range is actually quite a challenge to hit unless one has practiced it.

 

[vipertaja]

FYI, pont blank is an artillery term (some shooters get annoyed when one says point blank, I remember when I got yelled at for it lol)

Even at short range it is very possible to defeat an oponent in gunfighting even if the oponent has a gun out. It takes calmness (no one knows how one reacts until something like that happens, so the best thing to do if your worried about it is just act calm in day to day life, and a familiarity with ones weapon.

Sporadic, unexpected movement at short range is actually quite a challenge to hit unless one has practiced it.

You seem a bit overconfident to me though, Boba Fett.

 

[vipertaja]

FYI, pont blank is an artillery term (some shooters get annoyed when one says point blank, I remember when I got yelled at for it lol)

I'd argue point blank is a common term for short range nowadays, despite that some elitists might scoff at it.

 

[Lokisdottir]

Well, I'm not the kind of guy to be out alone late so it's no problem for me
really. And people tend to mostly keep a distance, so I would notice the one
out of line there.

A spidey sense would be damn handy though.

It helps that, here in northeastern US, people's "personal space bubbles" tend to be quite large. If someone is walking just a little too close, you'd definitely notice.

 

[vipertaja]

It helps that, here in northeastern US, people's "personal space bubbles" tend to be quite large. If someone is walking just a little too close, you'd definitely notice.

Here in Finland people keep very much to themselves and keep a distance...
especially when my blackclad form enters the room.