Really struggling with the idea of Hell

ozso · Mar 27, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
What do you think Jesus was talking about when he vividly described the sufferings of hell in 40 AD if you think the church more or less invented it in 500 AD?

Perhaps whatever the church thought up until then.

Dorothy Mae · Mar 27, 2021

MMXX said:
Perhaps whatever the church thought up until then.

They thought then that he’ll was a place of torment where the worms that eat them don’t die and the fire never goes out. Maybe in 500 AD they started to soften the description to the point where it’s just place where God is not, not undesirable for many.

chad kincham · Mar 27, 2021

aiki said:
He is not a Divine Torturer of the lost in hell. Instead, the place itself, its utter separation from God, is a torment to the lost, as is the horrible realization that, in hell, one has only oneself for company forever. Much of the torment of hell is derived from the wretchedness of the person who is there and from God's absence, not His presence.

That’s what I believe about that, too.

chad kincham · Mar 27, 2021

Richard T said:
I heard a message centered on John 17:9 "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.” Jesus' burden at this time was the 12 disciples, not the world.

Except if you keep reading, Jesus expands His focus from the 12 apostles:

Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Lion IRC · Mar 27, 2021

cerulean said:
...I'm starting to really wrestle with the idea of a loving God sending people to Hell.

Praying for you. Hope you come to a peaceful understanding.
Here's my $0.02

Firstly, I think hell is voluntary. The gates are locked from the inside.
Secondly, God says He does NOT want anyone to go to hell.
Thirdly, I wouldn't worship a God who DIDNT enforce laws - justice, righteousness, morality. God would be a monster if He let unrepentant sinners - rapists, murderers - share the same eternal outcome as their victim's. (If atheism was true, the unrepentant serial killer, genocidal maniac and the Nobel peace prize winner...would both end up in the same final state.)

Dorothy Mae · Mar 27, 2021

Albion said:
It's true that there are, and long have been, Christians who take the other view, but they are in the minority. In addition, their perspective isn't very well supported by Scripture...but the idea of an eternal estrangement from God and punishment is.

Jesus didn't describe it as merely separation from God. I’m going with his view since he has been there.

Dorothy Mae · Mar 27, 2021

Lion IRC said:
Praying for you.
Here's my $0.02
Firstly, I think hell is voluntary.
Secondly, God says He does NOT want anyone to go to hell.
Thirdly, I wouldn't worship a God who DIDNT enforce laws - justice, righteousness, morality. God would be a monster if He let unrepentant sinners - rapists, murderers - share the same eternal outcome as their victim's.

I changed my mind.

ozso · Mar 27, 2021

Lion IRC said:
Praying for you. Hope you come to a peaceful understanding.
Here's my $0.02

Firstly, I think hell is voluntary. The gates are locked from the inside.
Secondly, God says He does NOT want anyone to go to hell.

C.S. Lewis came to the same conclusion

Lion IRC said:
Thirdly, I wouldn't worship a God who DIDNT enforce laws - justice, righteousness, morality. God would be a monster if He let unrepentant sinners - rapists, murderers - share the same eternal outcome as their victim's. (If atheism was true, the unrepentant serial killer, genocidal maniac and the Nobel peace prize winner...would both end up in the same final state.)

.
All the different types of people you described will all share the same eternal punishment in hell. It doesn't matter if they're a serial killer or a social worker, Hitler or Mother Teresa. If they didn't believe in Jesus, they face the same eternal outcome.

Shrewd Manager · Mar 27, 2021

MMXX said:
All the different types of people you described will all share the same eternal punishment in hell. It doesn't matter if they're a serial killer or a social worker, Hitler or Mother Teresa. If they didn't believe in Jesus, they face the same eternal outcome

Compare if you will the fates of the 16 year old rape victim who suicides blaming Jesus for not saving her from her ordeal, and Kaganovich the monster of Stalinist communism, responsible for millions of gruesome murders, who goes to his grave unrepentant: together at last in the ecstasy of perpetual agony. Divine justice served, cases closed.

Not bad for a God for whom a false balance is abomination: but a just weight is his delight. (Pro 11:1; 20:23)

Little wonder God has taken the job of dispensing temporal justice away from the Church and religious nuts. Even secular humanist justice accepts the fundamental principles of condign justice and proportionate sentencing (at least 'on paper'). But here we have God portrayed as a monster who'll dispense an infinite punishment for the most trivial of offences. And worse, for transgressions committed innocently eg by the blind and the lost.

What a terrible misnomer and malignant slander on HaShem's perfect holy name. It really threatens to derail Christianity and the gospel message, imho it's mainly because of this that God's name is blasphemed among the gentiles.

Silverback · Mar 27, 2021

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Silverback · Mar 27, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
What do you think Jesus was talking about when he vividly described the sufferings of hell in 40 AD if you think the church more or less invented it in 500 AD?

I agree with you on this point, people consigned to Hell will be separated from God, they will suffer, and it will be eternal.

Silverback · Mar 27, 2021

MMXX said:
C.S. Lewis came to the same conclusion

.
All the different types of people you described will all share the same eternal punishment in hell. It doesn't matter if they're a serial killer or a social worker, Hitler or Mother Teresa. If they didn't believe in Jesus, they face the same eternal outcome.

And the first will be last, and the last will be first. Faith is the only thing that saves you, lack of faith is the only thing that condemns you.

ozso · Mar 27, 2021

Silverback said:
I agree with you on this point, people consigned to Hell will be separated from God, they will suffer, and it will be eternal.

Given that scenario, how do you know that you haven't been consigned to Hell? Not all who say Lord, Lord, will escape eternal torment damnation.

ozso · Mar 27, 2021

Silverback said:
And the first will be last, and the last will be first. Faith is the only thing that saves you, lack of faith is the only thing that condemns you.

You said earlier that that the only thing that determines salvation is if God picked you to be saved or not.

Albion · Mar 27, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
Jesus didn't describe it as merely separation from God.

I didn't either.

Silverback · Mar 27, 2021

MMXX said:
You said earlier that that the only thing that determines salvation is if God picked you to be saved or not.

Faith is a gift, God gives this gift to whom he has chosen...it's Gods grace for Christs sake through faith.

Silverback · Mar 27, 2021

MMXX said:
Given that scenario, how do you know that you haven't been consigned to Hell? Not all who say Lord, Lord, will escape eternal torment damnation.

Because I know I have a saving faith, I believe in, and trust God to save me...do I deserve this...no way, I know who I am and the things I have done, and the people I have hurt. However, the blood of Christ is enough even for my sins. Please take what I wrote as humble, not pretentious.

ozso · Mar 27, 2021

Silverback said:
Because I know I have a saving faith, I believe in, and trust God to save me...do I deserve this...no way, I know who I am and the things I have done, and the people I have hurt. However, the blood of Christ is enough even for my sins. Please take what I wrote as humble, not pretentious.

Well said and I agree. It's the if God didn't choose you, you have no chance of salvation scenario I find troubling.

Lukaris · Mar 28, 2021

MMXX said:
There are plenty of genuine Christians who do not believe in the eternal torment doctrine, including some well known theologians, and they have plenty of scripture to back them up. It wasn't something taught much until around 500 AD and the Eastern Orthodox church still doesn't.

There's a current thread about one of those theologians David Bentley Hart on Hell

You might find this lecture helpful. I know the speaker and he's like the last person I would have expected to not support the traditional view.

I realize your post is well meaning but DB Hart is misrepresenting Orthodox Christianity. We may believe in a greater threshold of mercy than western Christianity has often proclaimed but we are not universalists.

St. Gregory Palamas ( 14th c.) sums up the judgment of the ungodly, “The dead bodies of the ungodly will also be resurrected, but not in heavenly glory, for they will not be fashioned in the likeness of the glorious body of Christ, nor will they see the vision of God promised to believers, which is called the kingdom of God. “Let the wicked be taken away, that he behold not the glory of the Lord ( Isaiah 26:10, Septuagint). But those born & nurtured according to Christ, who as far as they were able, attained to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ ( Ephesians 4:13), will also obtain the blessing of the divine radiance and will, according to the Scripture, “shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their father” ( Matthew 13:43). From: St. Gregory Palamas: The Saving Work of Christ, chapter on redemption ( Mt. Tabor Publishing, isbn 978-0-9774983-5-2)

Lifelong_sinner · Mar 28, 2021

interesting question. a few weeks back, there was a question asked that if the threat of hell didnt exist, would you still be a christian. that question caused me to reflect on my situation. and tonite, oddly enough, i read something from john piper saying if the threat of hell is the only reason you want to get saved, then you are not saved.

i now have no doubt that i am not saved as the fear of hell is the only reason i would ever think about getting saved. i have been trying for almost 2 years now to get saved. it has always eluded me and i couldnt understand, till tonite. its not that i dont believe, i simply have no love for Him. but i have no love for anyone.

but i do believe that hell is even worse nthan we can imagine. other demons, fire, darkness, and eventually even satan will be there. its an eternal torment far worse than any of us could imagine.

Really struggling with the idea of Hell

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