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Real Question - Gospel of John

yatcup

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I have noticed a lot of randomness and, frankly, bizarre posting lately. So I decided to post something that is an actual, real question - of which I am interested in the answer - not in telling YOU the answer that I have already decided on. (I haven't decided anything - hence, the "question" aspect.)

The Gospel of John has two quotes in it that have disturbed me. I suppose it may seem nitpicking, but they do annoy me. In other words, they are nagging little snips.

  1. Even if we say the Gospel of John is not literally Jesus' words, they are John's words. By pointing this out, I do not mean to say that Jesus was inconsistent, but that perhaps the writer and/or editors of the text may have been.
  2. My Koine Greek is minimal. So perhaps the issue is simply a grammatical issue with the original language. I leave this open as a possibility.
John 6:65: For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father.

John 14:6: I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through me.

Now, I don't know if this question has been asked a billion times. I was reading the NT last night and got to the first John quote and it jogged my memory of the second and I became suspicious and doubtful. Is this a theological or grammatical issue? Or is it a insignificant triviality? Or what? Therefore, if it has been asked, I ask pardon, but could I get any explanation/answer - again?

Serious replies only, please.
 
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SuperPhil

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Well for one. Christ breathed through John the words that are written in the book of John. Therefore, it is God's word.

Secondly, there isn't going to be contradictions. Not one. For me, its accept the whole bible, or don't accept it at all.

Thirdly,
King James Bible
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Ask God to give you wisdom. Read and then re-read the chapter. He'll show you the answer! Granted someone will come along and give you a explanation, but it is always encouraging to see what Christ can reveal to you :D

Keep studying his awesome word bro!
 
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Van

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Hi Yatcup, yes you have posed a serious question. The idea of "no one comes to Me, unless granted by the Father" John 6:65, is that God can choose to not allow someone to come to Jesus. Contextually, this is illustrated by God not allowing Judas to come to Jesus, because Judas was chosen to fulfill another part of God's foretold plan of salvation. As another example, Paul tells us that God "hardened the hearts" of non-believing Jews, so that the Gospel would be spread to the Gentiles. But this observation simply reveals what God does to fulfill His plan, in not allowing a few to come to Jesus, and does not suggest in the slightest that God does not allow, if we choose, the vast majority to come to Jesus.

The second verse, John 14:6, simply restates the fact that we all were unholy sinners, in a separated from God sinful state, and nothing we can do can make us holy, not praying, not giving our possessions to the poor, not reading the Bible to our children. All our righteousness is like filthy rags. The only way to God is to be covered with the propitiation of Jesus, there is no other way. He is the way. Truth refers to what has fidelity to the original, and Jesus is the perfect image of God. Thus Jesus is the Truth.
Whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life, so Jesus is the way, the Truth and the life. May God Bless.
 
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Jpark

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I have noticed a lot of randomness and, frankly, bizarre posting lately. So I decided to post something that is an actual, real question - of which I am interested in the answer - not in telling YOU the answer that I have already decided on. (I haven't decided anything - hence, the "question" aspect.)

The Gospel of John has two quotes in it that have disturbed me. I suppose it may seem nitpicking, but they do annoy me. In other words, they are nagging little snips.

  1. Even if we say the Gospel of John is not literally Jesus' words, they are John's words. By pointing this out, I do not mean to say that Jesus was inconsistent, but that perhaps the writer and/or editors of the text may have been.
  2. My Koine Greek is minimal. So perhaps the issue is simply a grammatical issue with the original language. I leave this open as a possibility.
John 6:65: For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father.

John 14:6: I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through me.

Now, I don't know if this question has been asked a billion times. I was reading the NT last night and got to the first John quote and it jogged my memory of the second and I became suspicious and doubtful. Is this a theological or grammatical issue? Or is it a insignificant triviality? Or what? Therefore, if it has been asked, I ask pardon, but could I get any explanation/answer - again?

Serious replies only, please.
Concerning John 6:65, Paul says in 2 Timothy 2:24-25 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

Basically, no one can come to God unless God reveals the truth to Him. So if God didn't reveal the truth to anyone and didn't send Jesus (His Spirit; Isaiah 48:16), the Bible would be an ordinary book and no one could read it or understand it. So there would be no Christians. But God has revealed these things to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, the deep things of God. (1 Corinthians 2:10) So I guess you could say the Spirit of God is proof that God is there. (Psalm 51:11)
 
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yatcup

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Concerning John 6:65, Paul says in 2 Timothy 2:24-25 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

Basically, no one can come to God unless God reveals the truth to Him. So if God didn't reveal the truth to anyone and didn't send Jesus (His Spirit; Isaiah 48:16), the Bible would be an ordinary book and no one could read it or understand it. So there would be no Christians. But God has revealed these things to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, the deep things of God. (1 Corinthians 2:10) So I guess you could say the Spirit of God is proof that God is there. (Psalm 51:11)

Thank you for your response. However, I do not think that your post really deals with the question I asked in the OP.

On one hand, John tells us that no one can come to the Father except through Jesus. On the other, we are told that no one comes to Jesus except through the Father. Need I point out the circular difficulty inherent in this? Which is true and why would these two statements exist?
 
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Van

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Hi Yatcup, I may have missed one aspect of your "unstated" problem. If your problem is that no one can come to the Father except through the Son, and no one can come to the Son unless granted by the Father, then perhaps scripture is presenting two alternate views. But the views are complementary, God allows everyone to come to Christ, except for a few chosen to fulfill some other role in God's salvation plan, and then for those who try to come to God by some other mechanism than trusting in Jesus, such as works of righteousness, God does not accept the alternative. So there is no conflict.

Basically it comes down to anyone can come to Christ, minus a few exceptions. Take for example, someone who is so confused and twisted around in his or her mind, that they oppose the gosepl. They are sadly in the snare of Satan, and are actually opposing their own self interests. We, those that are charged with training disciples of Christ, are charged with dealing with these folks with humility and meekness. We are to do everything possible so that the person may come to their senses, for God might allow them, if they are not one of the few exceptions, to come to the realization of the truth. We are to till the soil, plant, and water, and trust in God to cause the increase. May God Bless.
 
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wlajoie74

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John 6:65: For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father.

In this verse Jesus says that no one can come to me unless the father grants it. In other words no one even gets to get the chance to get to Jesus unless the father wills it, and then once he does we get the chance to know the father through the son as the scripture below states.

John 14:6: I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through me.

just the way I understand it
 
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drich0150

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I don't want to pretend I have the answer here but lets look at your two passages in context.

John 6:53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"


61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[e] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."
66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
67"You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve.
68Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God." 70Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Here Jesus is showing the disciples that it ultimately takes God to understand God. Because in the previous verses Jesus speaks of the up comming Holy communion, which the majority of the mass of followers misunderstood to mean cannibalism. On their own, their love for God was trumped by their love of their own idea of what it meant to be Holy.

Next,
John 14:5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"

6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." 9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Here Jesus explains that the "Father" and He are in fact one. You can not love God without also loving Jesus.

So I would say in the first verses God's "chooses" or give understanding to those who seek Him or His Righteousness, over those who seek the appearance of things that seem holy to others.

And in the second verses that are in question, I see Jesus telling disciples who ask that Jesus produce the Father, That In away through knowing Him, they also know the Father.. That He and the Father are the same, and that you can not separate the two.. In other words you can not love God without first loving Jesus.

Now on the surface these two verses look like they contradict each other, but in context they are simply speaking about two different things, using The Same Father and Son to illustrate two different points.
 
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freeport

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I have noticed a lot of randomness and, frankly, bizarre posting lately. So I decided to post something that is an actual, real question - of which I am interested in the answer - not in telling YOU the answer that I have already decided on. (I haven't decided anything - hence, the "question" aspect.)

The Gospel of John has two quotes in it that have disturbed me. I suppose it may seem nitpicking, but they do annoy me. In other words, they are nagging little snips.

  1. Even if we say the Gospel of John is not literally Jesus' words, they are John's words. By pointing this out, I do not mean to say that Jesus was inconsistent, but that perhaps the writer and/or editors of the text may have been.
  2. My Koine Greek is minimal. So perhaps the issue is simply a grammatical issue with the original language. I leave this open as a possibility.
John 6:65: For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father.

John 14:6: I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through me.

Now, I don't know if this question has been asked a billion times. I was reading the NT last night and got to the first John quote and it jogged my memory of the second and I became suspicious and doubtful. Is this a theological or grammatical issue? Or is it a insignificant triviality? Or what? Therefore, if it has been asked, I ask pardon, but could I get any explanation/answer - again?

Serious replies only, please.

Your first statement is great.

On the quotes... first statement, no one can come to God unless He is chosen. God speaks in a person's heart and leads them.

On the second issue: you have to be born again to be saved and that is through the Spirit of Jesus who is God incarnate.

So, the Father leads people to the Son, and the Son is the Door to the Father.

They do not see the Father when the Father is leading them, nor are they saved, until they come to the Father. Though if led, they are chosen already and will be saved.
 
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HumbleSiPilot77

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I don't think there is any question to Jh 14:6

Jh 6:65 is connected to 6:44 and specifies that the impulse to faith comes from God. Jesus does not expect all to believe. It seems you are "seeking", so does that mean do you have that impulse?

On one hand, John tells us that no one can come to the Father except through Jesus. On the other, we are told that no one comes to Jesus except through the Father.

Former deals with your salvation, latter deals with your heart.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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I have noticed a lot of randomness and, frankly, bizarre posting lately. So I decided to post something that is an actual, real question - of which I am interested in the answer - not in telling YOU the answer that I have already decided on. (I haven't decided anything - hence, the "question" aspect.)

The Gospel of John has two quotes in it that have disturbed me. I suppose it may seem nitpicking, but they do annoy me. In other words, they are nagging little snips.

  1. Even if we say the Gospel of John is not literally Jesus' words, they are John's words. By pointing this out, I do not mean to say that Jesus was inconsistent, but that perhaps the writer and/or editors of the text may have been.
  2. My Koine Greek is minimal. So perhaps the issue is simply a grammatical issue with the original language. I leave this open as a possibility.
John 6:65: For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father.

John 14:6: I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through me.

Now, I don't know if this question has been asked a billion times. I was reading the NT last night and got to the first John quote and it jogged my memory of the second and I became suspicious and doubtful. Is this a theological or grammatical issue? Or is it a insignificant triviality? Or what? Therefore, if it has been asked, I ask pardon, but could I get any explanation/answer - again?

Serious replies only, please.

John Chrysostom:


John 6:65

And He said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto Me except it were given unto Him from above from My Father.
3. Here the Evangelist intimates to us the voluntary character of the Dispensation, and His endurance of evil. Nor is the, from the beginning, put here without a cause, but that you may be aware of His foreknowledge from the first, and that before the words were uttered, and not after the men had murmured nor after they had been offended, He knew the traitor, but before, which was an attribute of Godhead. Then He added, Except it be given him from above from My Father; thus persuading them to deem God His Father, not Joseph, and showing them that it is no common thing to believe in Him. As though He had said, Unbelievers disturb Me not; trouble Me not, astonish Me not. I know of old before they were created, I know to whom the Father has given to believe; and do thou, when you hear that He has given, imagine not merely an arbitrary distribution, but that if any has rendered himself worthy to receive the gift, he has received it.

And

John 14:6

I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no man comes unto the Father, but by Me.
Why then, when He was asked by Peter, 'Where are You going,' did He not say directly, 'I go to the Father, but you cannot come now'? Why did He put in a circuit of so many words, placing together questions and answers? With good reason He told not this to the Jews; but why not to these? He had indeed said both to these and to the Jews, that He came forth from God, and was going to God, now He says the same thing more clearly than before. Besides, to the Jews He spoke not so clearly; for had He said, You cannot come to the Father but by Me, they would straightway have deemed the matter mere boasting; but now by concealing this, He threw them into perplexity. But why, says some one, did He speak thus both to the disciples and to Peter? He knew his great forwardness, and that he would by reason of this the more press on and trouble Him; in order therefore to lead him away, He hides the matter. Having then succeeded in what He wished by the obscurity and by veiling His speech, He again discloses the matter. After saying, Where I am, no man can come, He adds, In My Father's house are many mansions; and again, No man comes to the Father but by Me. This He would not tell them at first, in order not to throw them into greater despondency, but, now that He has soothed them, He tells them. For by Peter's rebuke He cast out much of their despondency; and dreading lest they should be addressed in the same way, they were the more restrained. I am the Way. This is the proof of the, No man comes to the Father but by Me; and, the Truth, and the Life, of this, that these things shall surely be. There is then no falsehood with Me, if I am 'the Truth'; if I am 'Life' also, not even death shall be able to hinder you from coming to Me. Besides; if I am 'the Way,' you will need none to lead you by the hand; if I am also 'the Truth,' My words are no falsehoods; if I am also 'Life,' though ye die you shall obtain what I have told you. Now His being the Way, they both understood and allowed, but the rest they knew not. They did not indeed venture to say what they knew not. Still they gained great consolation from His being the Way. If, says He, I have sole authority to bring to the Father, you shall surely come there; for neither is it possible to come by any other way. But by saying before, No man can come to Me except the Father draw him; and again, If I be lifted up from the earth, I shall draw all men unto Me John 12:32; and again, No man comes to the Father but by Me John 14:6; He shows Himself equal to Him who begot Him. But how after saying, Whither I go ye know, and the way ye know, has He added,

John 14:7

If you had known Me, you should have known My Father also; and from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him?
He does not contradict Himself; they knew Him indeed, but not so as they ought. God they knew, but the Father not yet. For afterwards, the Spirit having come upon them wrought in them all knowledge. What He says is of this kind. Had ye known My Essence and My Dignity, you would have known that of the Father also; and henceforth you shall know Him, and have seen Him, (the one belonging to the future, the other to the present,) that is, by Me. By sight, He means knowledge by intellectual perception. For those who are seen we may see and not know; but those who are known we cannot know and not know. Wherefore He says, and you have seen Him; just as it says, was seen also of Angels. 1 Timothy 3:16 Yet the very Essence was not seen; yet it says that He was seen, that is, as far as it was possible for them to see. These words are used, that you may learn that the man who has seen Him knows Him who begot Him. But they beheld Him not in His unveiled Essence, but clothed with flesh. He is wont elsewhere to put sight for knowledge; as when He says, Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. Matthew 5:8 By pure, He means not those who are free from fornication only, but from all sins. For every sin brings filth upon the soul.
3. Let us then use every means to wipe off the filthiness. But first the font cleanses, afterwards other ways also, many and of all kinds. For God, being merciful, has even after this given to us various ways of reconciliation, of all which the first is that by alms-doing. By almsdeeds, it says, and deeds of faith sins are cleansed away. Sirach 3:30 By alms-doing I do not mean that which is maintained by injustice, for this is not alms-doing, but savageness and inhumanity. What profits it to strip one man and clothe another? For we ought to begin the action with mercy, but this is inhumanity. If we give away everything that we have got from other people, it is no gain to us. And this Zacchæus shows, who on that occasion said, that he propitiated God by giving four times as much as he had taken. Luke 19:8 But we, when we plunder unboundedly, and give but little, think that we make God propitious, whereas we do rather exasperate Him. For tell me, if you should drag a dead and rotten ass from the waysides and lanes, and bring it to the altar, would not all stone you as accursed and polluted? Well then, if I prove that a sacrifice procured by plunder is more polluted than this, what defense shall we obtain? Let us suppose that some article has been obtained by plunder, is it not of fouler scent than a dead ass? Would you learn how great is the rottenness of sin? Hear the Prophet saying, My wounds stank, and were corrupt. Psalm 38:5, Septuagint And do you in words entreat God to forget your misdeeds, and do you by what you yourself do, robbing and grasping, and placing your sin upon the altar, cause Him to remember them continually? But now, this is not the only sin, but there is one more grievous than this, that you defile the souls of the saints. For the altar is but a stone, and is consecrated, but they ever bear with them Christ Himself; and do you dare to send there any of such impurity? No, says one, not the same money, but other. Mockery this, and trifling. Do you not know, that if one drop of injustice fall on a great quantity of wealth, the whole is defiled? And just as a man by casting dung into a pure fountain makes it all unclean, so also in the case of riches, anything ill-gotten entering in makes them to be tainted with the ill savor from itself. Then we wash our hands when we enter into church, but our hearts not so. Why, do our hands send forth a voice? It is the soul that utters the words: to that God looks; cleanness of the body is of no use, while that is defiled. What profits it, if you wipe clean your outward hands, while you have those within impure? For the terrible thing and that which subverts all good is this, that while we are fearful about trifles, we care not for important matters. To pray with unwashed hands is a matter indifferent; but to do it with an unwashed mind, this is the extreme of all evils. Hear what was said to the Jews who busied themselves about such outward impurities. Wash your heart from wickedness, how long shall there be in you thoughts of your labors? Jeremiah 4:14 Let us also wash ourselves, not with mire, but with fair water, with alms-doing, not with covetousness. First get free from rapine, and then show forth almsdeeds. Let us decline from evil, and do good. Psalm 37:27 Stay your hands from covetousness, and so bring them to almsgiving. But if with the same hands we strip one set of persons, though we may not clothe the others with what has been taken from them, yet we shall not thus escape punishment. For that which is the groundwork of the propitiation is made the groundwork of all wickedness. Better not show mercy, than show it thus; since for Cain also it had been better not to have brought his offering at all. Now if he who brought too little angered God, when one gives what is another's, how shall not he anger Him? I commanded you, He will say, not to steal, and do you honor Me from that you have stolen? What do you think? That I am pleased with these things? Then shall He say to you, You thought wickedly that I am even such an one as yourself; I will rebuke you, and set before your face your sins. Psalm 50:21, Septuagint But may it not come to pass that any one of us hear this voice, but having wrought pure almsdeeds, and having our lamps burning, so may we enter into the bride-chamber by the grace and lovingkindness of our Lord Jesus Christ, to whom with the Father and the Holy Ghost be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

CHURCH FATHERS: Homilies on the Gospel of John (Chrysostom)

Maybe try reflecting on what John wrote or another Saint?
 
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LBP

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Hi Yatcup, I may have missed one aspect of your "unstated" problem. If your problem is that no one can come to the Father except through the Son, and no one can come to the Son unless granted by the Father, then perhaps scripture is presenting two alternate views. But the views are complementary, God allows everyone to come to Christ, except for a few chosen to fulfill some other role in God's salvation plan, and then for those who try to come to God by some other mechanism than trusting in Jesus, such as works of righteousness, God does not accept the alternative. So there is no conflict.

Yours is about as gentle an approach to the doctrines of predestination and election as I can imagine -- i.e., that only a few who are strictly necessary to the fulfillment of God's plan are denied the ability to respond to Christ and to come to the Father through Him. It does seem to me that there is no biblical way to completely avoid the doctrines of predestination and election; these doctrines are just too pervasive in the Bible to be ignored. Yet I find the idea that even Judas would be predestined for damnation, merely to serve as an instrument in God's plan, to be repulsive. As John Stuart Mill famously said, when explaining why he couldn't worship a God whose goodness couldn't be comprehended in relation to human morality: “I will call no being good, who is not what I mean when I apply that epithet to my fellow-creatures.” To preserve my sanity, and my Christianity, instead trying to work through what every Bible verse means and arrive at a completely logical theology (see, for example, this very thorough and articulate explanation of the Calvinist position on predestination that I nevertheless find unsatisfactory: http://www.mslick.com/predestination.htm) I content myself with accepting that the meaning of language such as "the elect" and "predestined," as well as the nature and purpose of God's plan itself, are mysteries that can only be comprehended from God's perspective and that, when all is revealed, things that may now seem to be inconsistent with a wholly just and loving Creator will be shown not to be inconsistent. My guess is that the real meaning of both John 6:65 and John 14:6, independently and when taken together, may be considerably more mysterious than we may now appreciate.
 
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John 6:65: For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father.

John 14:6: I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through me.

Now, I don't know if this question has been asked a billion times. I was reading the NT last night and got to the first John quote and it jogged my memory of the second and I became suspicious and doubtful. Is this a theological or grammatical issue? Or is it a insignificant triviality? Or what? Therefore, if it has been asked, I ask pardon, but could I get any explanation/answer - again?

Serious replies only, please.

Without divine inspiration, it would be easy to accept that the Bible would naturally accumulate a lot of contradictions, but even without divine inspiration a contradiction within a single book, written by a single author, would be somewhat careless on the part of that author and unexpected, especially with a book as short as John compared to e.g. novels written by secular authors. So we should assume that in John's mind what he was saying fit together well, and so I think we can be confident it makes sense in some way.

My view on this is that in John 14:6 Jesus is talking about his death on the cross. It's only through Jesus dying in our place that we could be found "not having a righteousness of my own" (Phil 3:9). So no one comes to the Father except through Jesus' taking our sins on the cross, so no one comes to God apart from Jesus.

But who does the arranging of all of this? Who arranges missionaries, hearing the Bible, changing someone's desires so they want to hear the gospel, and actually making Jesus' sacrifice apply to people? God, of course. So no one can come to Jesus apart from God doing lots of stuff. So no one can come to Jesus apart from God drawing them/setting everything up.
 
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yatcup

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My guess is that the real meaning of both John 6:65 and John 14:6, independently and when taken together, may be considerably more mysterious than we may now appreciate.

WHO IS MAKING MY E-MAIL light up? *LOLOL* I started this thread over a year ago - its cool that people are still reading/responding to it!

I've read the numerous responses to my op, and frankly I like the sentence that I quoted above the best.

But I do like the concept of a recent poster that with or without divine inspiration, the author of the text surely was of one mindset and would not contradict himself. However, I think the author (editors, scribes) of John are among the most esoteric in the bible. So, discerning what that mindset is can be a bit tricky. Its not so much that I am focusing on the possibility of there being a contradiction. (I mean, I know there are SOME folks who love to find "contradictions" and then use these alleged points as evidence for whatever.) I want to see if there is some reasonable consensus to be drawn that is a satisfactory hermeneutic that unites these verses.

John Chrysostom is undoubtedly a knowledgeable resource, but his homily on the latter verse is full of rhetoric and doesn't really shed light directly on the verses. But Jack is correct, there may be other saints who have commented on these verses.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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John Chrysostom is undoubtedly a knowledgeable resource, but his homily on the latter verse is full of rhetoric and doesn't really shed light directly on the verses. But Jack is correct, there may be other saints who have commented on these verses.

Sometimes it is nice to stand back and see something from a little different perspective. And if there are no conflicts then we could be a little wiser for it.
 
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LBP

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WHO IS MAKING MY E-MAIL light up? *LOLOL* I started this thread over a year ago - its cool that people are still reading/responding to it!

I've read the numerous responses to my op, and frankly I like the sentence that I quoted above the best.

That is wild! I paid absolutely no attention to the dates. I just happened to have had a very weird dream about the Gospel of John two nights ago, and this thread caught my eye.
 
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razeontherock

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I agree w/ those that say there is no contradiction here. Works out fine :) whether we understand it or not. Even those things we do understand, we should always retain the humility to recognize there's much more that we don't understand, even on that topic. And that Salvation is a miracle needs to be on the top of that list!
 
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onemorequestion

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I have noticed a lot of randomness and, frankly, bizarre posting lately. So I decided to post something that is an actual, real question - of which I am interested in the answer - not in telling YOU the answer that I have already decided on. (I haven't decided anything - hence, the "question" aspect.)

The Gospel of John has two quotes in it that have disturbed me. I suppose it may seem nitpicking, but they do annoy me. In other words, they are nagging little snips.

  1. Even if we say the Gospel of John is not literally Jesus' words, they are John's words. By pointing this out, I do not mean to say that Jesus was inconsistent, but that perhaps the writer and/or editors of the text may have been.
  2. My Koine Greek is minimal. So perhaps the issue is simply a grammatical issue with the original language. I leave this open as a possibility.
John 6:65: For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father.

John 14:6: I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through me.

Now, I don't know if this question has been asked a billion times. I was reading the NT last night and got to the first John quote and it jogged my memory of the second and I became suspicious and doubtful. Is this a theological or grammatical issue? Or is it a insignificant triviality? Or what? Therefore, if it has been asked, I ask pardon, but could I get any explanation/answer - again?

Serious replies only, please.

I believe you're dealing with the same message and assertion:


37"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

Gospel of John 6:37-40
 
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Harry3142

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One is passive; the other, active.

No one can approach the Father except through Jesus Christ. The sinless God can only be approached by sinless people. Since we all know that we do not measure up, we need to take on the righteousness of someone else who has measured up. We approach God through Jesus Christ's righteous action on our behalf, approved by God the Father and the source of righteousness freely given to all who with contrite hearts and honest self-examination ask for that righteousness.

As for God's having to grant us access to Jesus Christ, that was accomplished through his Passion. Prior to Jesus' suffering, death, and resurrection, it was commonly believed that all who wished to inherit eternal life were pretty much on their own. If they were 'good enough' they got into heaven; if they weren't they didn't.

Jesus Christ's successfully completing the task set before him by God the Father 'opened our eyes' to the real path to salvation. We do not acquire it through our own works; we acquire it through accepting God's own work. It is his righteousness bestowed on us rather than our own feeble attempts at earning righteousness that determines our eternal security.

This is shown clearly in Romans 3:19-26. There St. Paul wrote that no one will be declared righteous through his own efforts. In fact, the more learning the people had concerning the requirements of the law, the more obvious it became that they could not abide by it.

So God earned for us the righteousness that we can never earn through our own works. But in order to obtain that righteousness, we must accept it 'God's Way'. We accept that God has saved us from our own weakness, we accept that Jesus Christ did indeed die and was resurrected by God the Father in order to cleanse us of our unrighteousness, we accept that because of what he has done Jesus Christ now truly has earned the title 'Lord and Saviour', and we accept that this means of salvation is our only true way to eternal life. So we accept Jesus Christ as our own personal Lord and Saviour.

But there were those in Jesus' time, and there have continued to be others during the course of Christianity, who have endeavored to approach Jesus, not with a humble and contrite heart, but with an agenda that would put their own desires over and above God's. We see this yet today. There are those who would reduce Jesus to the status of an icon supporting their own special-interest group, turn him into a weapon which they would then use to attack any and all who refuse to submit to their desires ("They refuse to obey me; Jesus will punish them for their unbelief'), use him as a manipulative device in order to force others to obey them ("If you love Jesus you'll ..."), and even use his name in order to draw people into their net, only to attempt to tear down all he taught and replace it with something that is more 'amenable' to their desires. Their goal is the furtherance of their own agendas, rather than God's.

God will not give these people access to Jesus Christ. Granting access to him implies approval of the reason for their approaching him, and in order for access to be granted that reason must conform to God's own agenda. They may claim that they are 'doing the Lord's work' (Adolph Hitler himself claimed that he was doing that). They may even claim that without their intervention on our behalf we are lost souls, that unless they tell us what Scripture really says we are doomed. But the words they are uttering are their own, not God's.

Scripture does tell us the proper procedure for gaining access to Jesus Christ:

Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down) "or 'Who will descend into the deep?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," amd believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile - the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:5-13,NIV)

That's how we gain access to Jesus Christ, namely, by doing it God's way and for his purposes rather than attempting to do it our way and for our own purposes. God's in charge; he is a gentle king, but he is still our king. We follow his directions, we use his 'roadmap', we approach Jesus Christ in the prescribed manner. In that way we gain access to the person who saved our lives.
 
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