Real Presence

[JDIBe]

To prevent highjacking of community areas, maybe this should be moved to Nicene Theology Board?

Just a suggestion.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me the sinner.

I appreciate the thought, but the cat's already out of the bag on this one.

Since it is a post addressing coC doctrine specifically, I don't think it really belongs in the Gen. Theology forum. You are certainly welcome to bring up the subject there and discuss it with those members.

The OP is welcome here anytime. We know and love him well.

You are welcome too. We appreciate the many fellowship threads started by our fellow CF friends. Stop by and say "Hi" anytime.

I do question (and I'm trying to say this in the nicest possible way, no offense intended...)

1. Why many different members of a particular forum have come over to participate in the thread,
2. Kept a running commentary of the progress of such thread with certain "rather crude euphamisms" for our opinions in not one, but two threads on their forum,
3. Come over to make administrative suggestions as to where our threads should be placed in our forum.

But perhaps this is the "new" CF. Perhaps I am a little unsettled as we have been overrun by posters from different backgrounds lately. If this is what CF is supposed to be now, I humbly withdraw my objection. I certainly do not speak for all here. I do realize I am sort of "killing the messenger" with this post. I hope you do not take personal offense. I appreciate your thoughtfulness and effort to try to do what's right. That goes for other threads I have participated with you as well.

It's just lately, I'm just not sure what this folder is supposed to be anymore.

 

[AJB4]

Another point about Real Presence: In John 6:47-69, when Jesus said in the synagogues at Capernaum, "Eat my flesh and drink my blood", most people seemed to take it literally: they left. What did Jesus do? He let them. He didn't call out "I meant symbolically drink my blood". He said to his 12 disciples, "Will you leave also?".

How's that for Real Presence eh?

 

[Splayd]

Hey AJ

I discussed that passage in length in an earlier post in this thread here.

Peace

 

[JDIBe]

I also touch upon it in post #40.

Can one interpret John 4:14 the same way? Why or why not?

 

[Albion]

Another point about Real Presence: In John 6:47-69, when Jesus said in the synagogues at Capernaum, "Eat my flesh and drink my blood", most people seemed to take it literally: they left. What did Jesus do? He let them. He didn't call out "I meant symbolically drink my blood". He said to his 12 disciples, "Will you leave also?".

How's that for Real Presence eh?

I've read that interpretation often, but really it doesn't prove Real Presence--and it ABSOLUTELY doesn't prove any carnal, cannibalistic kind of interpretation of it. Not even if one comes to the conclusion that this is the genuine way to see the sacrament (from other passages in the Bible).

We have a number of other instances in the New Testament where Christ treats lightly with those who have no faith in him. He never argues them into going along with belief. Take the rich man who came to Jesus asking what should be done if he was to be saved. He went away sad after hearing Jesus' answer. Jesus didn't stay with the argument and try to persuade him. And when in Matthew 16, Peter expresses horror at the sacrifice Jesus is to go through, Jesus doesn't sympathize with him or explain the plan of salvation. Instead he likens Peter to Satan for his lack of faith and ends the conversation--just as with those who didn't receive Jesus words in John 6.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

*OrthodoxyUSA thinks about where he is and how he might respond without offending people.*

Greetings in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ!

Forgive me...

 

[disasm]

*OrthodoxyUSA thinks about where he is and how he might respond without offending people.*

Greetings in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ!

Forgive me...

I like that idea...

Glory to Jesus Christ!

 

[AJB4]

Hey AJ

I discussed that passage in length in an earlier post in this thread here.

Peace

Thanks for that. I'd never read your earlier post properly.

 

[joyfulthanks]

Nevermind.

 

[FaithfulRemnant]

The understanding of the real presence did not end with the Reformation. However, many Protestants did abandon this doctrine. I myself do not reject it. If it's all symbolic and that only, I don't understand then why the Apostle Paul mentioned the body and blood of the Lord in connection with it. The Apostle said one who eats unworthily does not discern the body and blood of the Lord and will bring condemnation upon oneself, and he acknowledge this is why many were sick and dying in the Corinthian church. Does mere eating of bread and wine do this? Sounds like something more is going on behind that bread and wine we see at the Lord's table. And Jesus made quite a discussion about eating and drinking his body and blood(Except ye eat the flesh of the Son and drink his blood ye have no life..), and many walked away and He didn't tell them to come back because he was speaking only in a symbolic sense. The Apostle Paul said every time you eat and drink the Supper you are proclaiming the Lord's death till he comes. There's something real about it, no doubt. If this is really something you feel is important(as it was to me), I encourage you to study this. See what others of the past have believed. Christians of the 1st century had the scriptures also. See what others believe now. Weigh both sides. Read the scriptures and ask yourself what do you believe they really say. Put commentaries aside and read the Bible alone and see where you stand on the matter. It's a memorial but I don't leave it as a mere symbolic memorial. It's also a proclamation(Ye do show the Lord's death....) and a participation in the very acts of what the Lord did on our behalf. Jesus says where two or three are gathered, he's there. He's really there! I've given you my reasons why I believe there's more to the Lord's Supper than just a symbolic meal. I hope this helps in your study of this.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

If memory serves...

The Westminster confession of 1646, is the first time we see it denied in a public document. And if one understands the history of the time we realize that the Westminster confession is mostly anti Roman Catholic in it's view... being produced by the Church of England for their own purpose in splitting away from The Church of Rome and Papal authority. However, in so doing, they took the Holy Traditons (those taught by Christ himself) and changed them to fit their own view. IMHO ~ They should have sought out the other Churches (Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria etc) for direction.

From Chapter XXIX

That doctrine which maintains a change of the substance of bread and wine, into the substance of Christ's body and blood (commonly called transubstantiation) by consecration of a priest, or by any other way, is repugnant, not to Scripture alone, but even to common-sense and reason; overthroweth the nature of the sacrament; and hath been, and is, the cause of manifold superstitions, yea, of gross idolatries.

Forgive me...

 

[Albion]

There's something real about it, no doubt. If this is really something you feel is important(as it was to me), I encourage you to study this.

This certainly is so. In some way, the Supper is the real body and blood of Christ. It's just the materialistic, carnal concept that caused theological problems.

 

[joyfulthanks]

Okay, this is really bugging me. I started to say something before, and backed off, but it's still nagging at me, so here goes.

Which forum am I in here, anyway? We have no less than four Orthodox posters, an Anglican, a Lutheran, and miscellaneous others (now including myself - I, admittedly, am not a member of an RM church) all in here discussing a question asked in the restoration movement forum of restoration movement members.

I spent at least a year hanging out in TAW, and although TAW members were always very gracious toward me and patient with my individual questions, I know that if four members of another congregational forum had come into TAW en masse and started disputing their doctrines, they would not have been quite so hospitable. Especially if a young Orthodox person was expressing questions about Orthodox doctrines, was asking Orthodox members questions in the Orthodox forum, and was being responded to with things contrary to Orthodox doctrine by multiple members of another congregation.

Come on guys - show some respect. I came in here to read what the RM members had to say about this. There are plenty of other places you can make your case. Unless, of course, the RM members want to allow this debate here, in which case I humbly retract my statements and ask you to forgive me for speaking out of turn. And please, if anyone is offended by my request, just be offended by me and not the RM forum. I'm just a guest here, too. I am not a RM member, and don't speak for them. I'm just a visitor who has a big mouth.

-Grace

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Okay, this is really bugging me. I started to say something before, and backed off, but it's still nagging at me, so here goes.

Which forum am I in here, anyway? We have no less than four Orthodox posters, an Anglican, a Lutheran, and miscellaneous others (now including myself - I, admittedly, am not a member of an RM church) all in here discussing a question asked in the restoration movement forum of restoration movement members.

I spent at least a year hanging out in TAW, and although TAW members were always very gracious toward me and patient with my individual questions, I know that if four members of another congregational forum had come into TAW en masse and started disputing their doctrines, they would not have been quite so hospitable. Especially if a young Orthodox person was expressing questions about Orthodox doctrines, was asking Orthodox members questions in the Orthodox forum, and was being responded to with things contrary to Orthodox doctrine by multiple members of another congregation.

Come on guys - show some respect. I came in here to read what the RM members had to say about this. There are plenty of other places you can make your case. Unless, of course, the RM members want to allow this debate here, in which case I humbly retract my statements and ask you to forgive me for speaking out of turn. And please, if anyone is offended by my request, just be offended by me and not the RM forum. I'm just a guest here, too. I am not a RM member, and don't speak for them. I'm just a visitor who has a big mouth.

-Grace

So what I said was disrespectful?

What part? Did I call anyones beliefs into question? Did I insult someone?

Forgive me...

 

[joyfulthanks]

So what I said was disrespectful?

What part? Did I call anyones beliefs into question?

However, in so doing, they took the Holy Traditons (those taught by Christ himself) and changed them to fit their own view.

This is the RM forum. This is not TAW. And it's not my home forum, either, so I'm butting out now. If you don't want to respect their right to have a forum free of debate which questions their beliefs, that is your business - and theirs. I'll be going now.

 

[joyfulthanks]

I just changed my sig to remind myself of my need to be more intentional in practicing the grace of silence. I'm working on it.

 

[Albion]

Okay, this is really bugging me. I started to say something before, and backed off, but it's still nagging at me, so here goes.

Which forum am I in here, anyway? We have no less than four Orthodox posters, an Anglican, a Lutheran, and miscellaneous others (now including myself - I, admittedly, am not a member of an RM church) all in here discussing a question asked in the restoration movement forum of restoration movement members.

You know, you're right! And I apologize. I made my first post because of my high regard for the Restorationist movement, and that post wasn't very argumentative IMO...but then it just passed into being one of my faves which, as you know, aren't listed by which forum they come from. So it's right that you called this to my attention.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

OUSA unsubscribes.

Forgive me...

 

[FaithfulRemnant]

I just thought I'd visit the RM forum and saw the subject and thought I'd chip in my experience and thoughts and in a way I guess I see myself as somewhat of a restorationist also. If I did wrong, I apologize.