Re-Thinking Hell

wendykvw said:

John 3:18 and Mark 16:16 refer to judgement. All people will be judged. No argument. Matthew 7:14 refers to life here and now. Who are the few? The few who find salvation? If this is your position Satan has victory. I suggest you refer to the victory of Christ, and His defeat of the evil one.

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"....only a remnant will be saved". Romans 9:27

johnjanuary1984 said:

I don't believe Jesus sacrifice gives people a license to sin.

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Nor do I but it would appear that some people do believe that.

Der Alte said:

Your uninformed, unsupported, biased opinion is irrelevant. You are deliberately only telling a fraction of the story. What modern Jews believe about hell is irrelevant as I have shown from three Jewish sources; The Jewish Encyclopedia, The Talmud and the Encyclopedia Judaica. Which OBTW have not and cannot be refuted concerning the historical Jewish belief.
What do modern Jews believe about Jesus? Do you want to quote some of that in support of your arguments? I think not.
Once again your biased opinion about Enoch and Judith is totally irrelevant. The Jewish sources I posted, quoted them as authoritative. Pack your bags end of story.
I explained in my post, which you evidently have never read for understanding. You probably just skimmed it trying to find something you thought you could easily refute such as the bit about Enoch and Judith.
Why is the modern Jewish view of hell irrelevant but the historical belief was and is very relevant? Here is a hint the modern Jewish view about hell has absolutely no influence on the Christian belief.
OTOH all of the NT writers lived in that society and would have been influenced from birth by all of the existing beliefs including the belief in hell.

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So far you have not provided any evidence that the current view of hell in Judaism being a year long purgatory was any different in Jesus' time, other than dubious apocrypha.

These aionios debates go on forever.

Receivedgrace said:

You cannot find the truth without the Holy Spirit. Intellect alone will never be sufficient.
You simply must allow for translational tolerances for sheol, hades and Gehana.

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I think it's more important to seek accuracy than tolerance when it comes to translation.

wendykvw said:

Come again, the father of lies? I would be willing to bet the father of lies tells people Christ was defeated and can’t save the world. Which is contrary to scripture.

He forgave us all our trespasses,14having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross! 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Colossians 2:14-16.

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He also likes to use the Word of God out of context for his own purposes.


Colossians 2:12-16
King James Version

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:


There is quite a bit you have to leave out in order to make your doctrine palatable.

You use these prooftexts randomly and out of context, ignoring that the benefits of the Cross are for those who are in Christ, and that they are made distinct from those who are still dead in their sins.

Satan gives false hope to people who are still dead and very likely limiting their chances to be made alive in Christ, teaching them how to create their own religion out of the Word of God. It is very easy, prooftext what you want to believe and ignore anything that interferes with your doctrine. He tells them to read books about the Bible instead of reading the books of the Bible. Tells them it's okay to understand that even though Scripture states something clearly—it doesn't have to be heeded.

Christ did conquer death and sin but the fact is that people are still born out of relationship with God, they are born without the Life of God, and they still need to trust in Christ and be made alive in Him in order to benefit from the victory Christ has accomplished.

There is a reason why people need to believe in Jesus Christ and undermining the Word of God is going to help no one.

wendykvw said:

Satan and the fallen angels have no authority over any human. The debt was paid in full by the blood of the lamb who takes away the sins of the world.
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand. John 10:28

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Again, a proof text taken out of context along with an obvious contradiction to one of the most basic truths presented in Scripture: that Satan and his demons do have the ability to impact the lives of men.

Let's put it back into context and see who it is the Lord will give eternal life to:

John 10:24-31
King James Version

24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.


Apparently, the context of this passage means nothing to those who seek to beguile others into believing in Universal Salvation.

For those who are not the "sheep" (followers) of Christ there will be no eternal life, but eternal judgment only.

wendykvw said:

God has no favorites. He is unwilling any perish, and is willing to be patient with all people to come to the knowledge of truth. Death does not end God’s ability to rescue those who never heard the gospel or who were too ignorant to come into a relationship with their Heavenly Father.

Colossians 3:25, 2 Pt3:9, 1Pt 4:6,1 Tim 2:4.

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Again, let's find the context of this prooftext statement:

Prooftext—God has no favorites (Colossians 3:25):

Given a universal application by the universalist, but yanked out of an exclusive context:

Colossians 3
King James Version

1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.


See the condition? If ye be risen with Christ?

Meaning—if you are born again, then ...


9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;


10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:


11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


Familiar terminology that cannot be mistaken to have a reference to those who do not belong to God through Eternal Union. Let's take a look at another passage that makes this clear:

Galatians 3:26-28
King James Version

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


Now back to the prooftext:


Colossians 3:23-25
King James Version

23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;

24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.


The universal lie is that "God is no respecter of persons," or, God has no favorites applies to all of mankind. This is true in the sense that God will judge sin without respect of persons, but it is not true in a context that seeks to omit the fact that it is judgment itself that is in view.

Above, those who do wrong will be judged just as those who follow the instruction given to born-again believers. Judgement for wrongdoing applies to them, but, there is nothing in this verse/passage that makes obsolete the many numerous teachings of eternal judgment for those who are not born again.

I will have to continue the proof-texting phrase above...

MMXX said:

I think it's more important to seek accuracy than tolerance when it comes to translation.

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I am not fluent in ancient Hebrew or Greek so I must trust God to give the accuracy needed despite the differences between the original languages and manuscripts and my lowly somewhat flawed English translations.
Denying eternal condemnation when it is part of what the bible teaches is best left to those who will because they choose not to hear will feel.

wendykvw said:

God has no favorites. He is unwilling any perish, and is willing to be patient with all people to come to the knowledge of truth. Death does not end God’s ability to rescue those who never heard the gospel or who were too ignorant to come into a relationship with their Heavenly Father.

Colossians 3:25, 2 Pt3:9, 1Pt 4:6,1 Tim 2:4.

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Proof Text—He is unwilling any perish, and is willing to be patient with all people to come to the knowledge of the truth (2 Peter 3:9):


2 Peter 3:9-10
King James Version

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


Verse 10 refers to the Day of the Lord and the passing away of this current creation and verse 9 speaks of God's patience with mankind.

Where is a universal salvation teaching in this? It simply isn't there, but v.9 sounds good to those with itching ears who refuse to acknowledge God's Word and will for mankind.

Does Peter teach universal salvation? Or eternal judgment?


2 Peter 2
King James Version

1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


The false teacher of today is the modern equivalent of the false prophet of the Old Testament. Is their destruction temporary?

It is if you buy into the Universal gospel that men and women do not need to be born again according to the commandment of God. But let's see what Peter thinks about false teachers and their destruction:


17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.


I don't know about you, but I am having a hard time seeing a happily ever after for these folks. For ever means for ever.

In a parallel statement we see Jude say—


Jude 12-13
King James Version

12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.


The picture is that of those who are not born again. They are dead because they have never received the life of Christ. They are not new creatures, and their destruction is not given in terms of the happily ever after, but one of everlasting darkness.

When "darkness" (skotos) is referenced in Scripture it refers to that which is contrary to that which is good.

Universalism ignores the Word of God and the warnings given to mankind. It teaches a false gospel that cannot be supported by Scripture and rejected by anyone that is a serious Bible Student.

Because many do not understand Regeneration and how that impacts our understanding of salvation they are easily led astray by doctrines that were once identified only among cults. That they have made inroads into Modern Christendom is not surprising, seeing that fewer people have a fear of God today.

Is God unwilling that any perish, as the prooftext states? Yes, absolutely. That is why He is long-suffering, that more people can come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. But does that mean all will be saved? Well, if you think that the mists of darkness for ever is being saved, perhaps. But this is terminology describing, not universal salvation, but Eternal Separation. That is man's great problem, he is born separated from God. That is why he sins, not the other way around. That is the great malady of Man that only Christ can remedy.

One more on this part of the prooftext phrase:


2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
King James Version

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


Again, we see Eternal Separation.

These are the statements of Scripture that have to be ignored and/or removed from the gospel of universal salvation. Because they make it clear that there is no happily ever after for those who reject God's Word and will for man.

And His will for all men and women this day is to believe in Christ, and along with that comes believing what Christ taught.

The proof-texting phrase will be continued...

wendykvw said:

God has no favorites. He is unwilling any perish, and is willing to be patient with all people to come to the knowledge of truth. Death does not end God’s ability to rescue those who never heard the gospel or who were too ignorant to come into a relationship with their Heavenly Father.

Colossians 3:25, 2 Pt3:9, 1Pt 4:6,1 Tim 2:4.

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Prooftext—Death does not end God’s ability to rescue those who never heard the gospel or who were too ignorant to come into a relationship with their Heavenly Father. (1 Timothy 2:4):


1 Timothy 2
King James Version

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


Shocking.

Where in the above verse do we see the statement of the universal gospel? Nowhere.

And that is the problem with those who take a liberal road to proof-texting what they want to believe—they will always overstep.

Always.

I would agree death does not end God's ability to show grace to those who never heard the Gospel, because we have an entire Old Testament filled with men and women of faith that died not having the Mystery of the Gospel revealed to them. But—they were men and women of faith. They were justified during their lifetime based on their response to the revelation that was provided for them.

As far as the ignorant go, I actually agree with that as well. One example of someone who dies ignorant: unborn babies murdered in the womb. Small children that die young. Those with mental impairment. Yes, I believe God will extend grace to these people.

But for those who grow up and have the mental ability to process the revelation God gives them and reject His will? Well, Scripture tells us precisely what will happen: being dead, and not receiving life from God through eternal union with God—they will go into Eternal Judgment.

Because that is the choice they make.

The Old Testament Saint died awaiting Eternal Redemption through Christ, but, as I said they were justified during their lifetimes because they were obedient to God's revealed will. They were eternally redeemed when Christ died in their stead. The Writer of Hebrews mentions them:


Hebrews 11:13
King James Version

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


Hebrews 11:38-39
King James Version

38 (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:


Hebrews 12:22-24
King James Version

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


Their spirits went to Hades/Sheol, the place of the dead, and awaited being made perfect (complete) in regards to remission of sins (Hebrews 10:10; Hebrews 10:14).

In this Age those who are born again go to Heaven to be with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8), whereas those who die that have not been born again go—to Hades/Sheol. And they will await judgment at the Great White Throne (Revelation 20:11-15).

Let's look at the context of the passage the proof-text is yanked out of:


1 Timothy 2
King James Version

2 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


In no way does God's desire for all men to be saved deny the many teachings that make it clear that not all men will be saved. Christ taught a many/few ratio between saved and lost, not a universal salvation for all men.

There are those who are His sheep, and there are the goats. We know the goats will go into everlasting destruction and will be for ever separated from God.

That is why it is critical that we preach THE Gospel of Jesus Christ, so that men might be saved and brought into the eternal union Christ taught about in John 14:15-23. Because Scripture makes it clear that universal salvation is a false gospel we must make sure we can address that error.

Putting the proof-texts back into a Biblical context is the easiest way to do that.

wendykvw said:

Our will or ignorance is not an obstacle to the creator who also is the Savior. Who can boast? Not one can boast. He loved us first, not the other way around. He is the great physician who came specifically for the unrighteous. He heals the blind, deaf, raises the dead, and cures sinful people. The entire universe will be reconciled to their creator. The ending is a happy one. All people, great and small will know the lord. All people will worship Him willingly.
Eph 2:9, 1 John 4:19, Matt 19:12, Ps 22:27

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Again, we see that same type of proof-texting we saw in the last proof-texting statement. This applies truths applicable only to those who are in Christ—to everyone.

But within these truths are also mixed with what is not truth.

What I will do with these is ask the poster to present the verses/passages used to prooftext their statements.

Do I think they will do that? Not a chance. But I will ask anyway.

There isn't much room for universal salvation in Scripture when we see those not written in the Book of Life cast into the Lake of Fire and then—this creation passes away:


Revelation 20:11-15
King James Version

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


The reason they are called "the dead" is due to the fact that they have no life.

That is how we are all born. We have a spirit, and we have a living physical body, but we are not born with eternal life, which is the Life of God. And we can only obtain that life by being placed in Him.

And we can only be placed in Him by believing in Jesus Christ:


John 6:48-54
King James Version

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


"Eating of His flesh and drinking of His blood" speaks of belief in His Death, Burial, and Resurrection. Or in other words—accepting the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

If one does not do that—they have no life.

If one does that, then they will have eternal life.

Jesus makes a parting statement here:


Revelation 22:17-19
King James Version

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


I would be curious to know how the universalist reconciles being taken out of the book of life.

There is a reason why the Lord taught about Eternal Separation and destruction. Man is born already separated from God. Unless something happens his fate is sealed. But because God's grace has been extended to man from day one He has always given a means of relationship through which men can escape Eternal Judgment. In this Age it is specific to faith in Christ. That is the Holy Commandment: believe in the Name of Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

The universalist gospel teaches that men can trod underfoot the Son of God, despise His Death, and mock His Covenant, but Scripture does no such thing.

Again I challenge the poster to present the proof-texts in their original context, and we will see how well they stand up.

God bless.

Lazarus Short said:

Firstly, for the statements about "hell" and about "heaven," I did a quick tally with a hand counter, and never made a list...so sorry, no can do.

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So what you might want to do is go back and do a thorough study of the issue and take into account that not all uses of "Heaven" are a reference to Heaven itself. For example, "the Kingdom of Heaven" can be a reference to life here on Earth, and is speaking about God's rule both in the hearts of men as well as in the kingdoms of men. "The Kingdom of Heaven" can be used euphemistically for the physical Kingdom God promised Israel and Christ's teaching on this is often overlooked. Because many have embraced amillennialism no consideration is given this issue on their part.

Lazarus Short said:

Secondly, I don't know of any Bible, the KJV included, that ID's the Lake of Fire as "hell."

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Keep in mind that two concepts are spoken of in Scripture (three is you include Tartarus) that are translated "Hell." While the word "hell" is not in the original language the concepts the word translates certainly are.

That the Lord, when referring to Gehenna, is speaking about the Lake of Fire is obvious. When He is speaking about Hades, again, it is pretty obvious. So when I say what most people understand as "Hell" is the Lake of Fire, that is what I mean. That everlasting place of the unjust and unsaved dead.

Lazarus Short said:

It is an assumption on top of an assertion.

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Not at all, it is a first-century doctrine of the Bible that can also be seen in the Old Testament. For example:

Daniel 12:1-2
King James Version

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


We have the advantage in that we have been given more specific revelation in regards to the judgment spoken of here, as well as resurrection itself. It was unknown to the Old Testament Saints that the Just, those saved, those who receive everlasting life—would receive glorified bodies.

The above cannot be interpreted as "...some will receive everlasting life and some everlasting shame and contempt and everlasting life."

While it is true that the dead (those without life, those not born again, those not in eternal union with God partaking of His divine nature (Eternal Life)) will be resurrected and then cast into the Lake of Fire, they, like all that are born among mankind, will not have Eternal Life. Eternal existence, yes, in bodies suited for eternal separation, but not the Life we receive when we are placed in Him Who is Eternal.

The word "trinity" is not in Scripture, but that is a Biblical Doctrine taught by Christ. Would you deny this doctrine as well? Because the English Word trinity is not in the original language?

The word "bible" is not in the Bible, does that invalidate that there is a Bible?

Lazarus Short said:

I have found the Bible has been shockingly silent about "hell" on several levels.

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My suggestion would be that if you read it more often you will find that the concept of Hell, the place of everlasting judgment, separation, and torment is found quite a bit.

So tell me how you interpret the following;


Revelation 22:17-19
King James Version

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


Because I don't know if you embrace universal salvation, annihilation, or both, you will have to make that clear to me. One of those positions is usually embraced by those who deny there is a place of everlasting judgment.

The original annihilationists, the Sadducees, were rebuked by Christ and said not to know the Scriptures. Keep in mind that the Scriptures He referred to were the Hebrew Scriptures, not the revelation of the New Testament. So within the Old Testament was enough for men to know that there would be a resurrection and that annihiation was a false doctrine.

Man has two conditions he exists in: eternal life or death. Just because a spirit exists does not mean it has eternal life, and just because a person's flesh is alive doesn't mean they have eternal life. So the question I would pose to you would be, how exactly do those who reject Jesus Christ come to have eternal life? And again, I would like to know how you interpret the above passage.

God bless.

P1LGR1M said:

What I will do with these is ask the poster to present the verses/passages used to prooftext their statements.

Do I think they will do that? Not a chance. But I will ask anyway.

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Why do you say that? There isn't you've come up with that I haven't seen addressed by universalists. You may not like or agree with it, but from what I've seen, they have a good scriptural answer for everything.

P1LGR1M said:

So tell me how you interpret the following;


Revelation 22:17-19
King James Version

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


Because I don't know if you embrace universal salvation, annihilation, or both, you will have to make that clear to me. One of those positions is usually embraced by those who deny there is a place of everlasting judgment.

The original annihilationists, the Sadducees, were rebuked by Christ and said not to know the Scriptures. Keep in mind that the Scriptures He referred to were the Hebrew Scriptures, not the revelation of the New Testament. So within the Old Testament was enough for men to know that there would be a resurrection and that annihiation was a false doctrine.

Man has two conditions he exists in: eternal life or death. Just because a spirit exists does not mean it has eternal life, and just because a person's flesh is alive doesn't mean they have eternal life. So the question I would pose to you would be, how exactly do those who reject Jesus Christ come to have eternal life? And again, I would like to know how you interpret the above passage.

God bless.

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I interpret the above Scripture very simply: do not add to or take away from the Scriptures as inspired by God. But they did, as theology guided translation. I have gotten rid of Bible versions (won't name them) because of it.

Now, just so you know, I am a Universalist. I once subscribed to the "hell" theory, and once was a member of a church which stressed annihilation of the "lost." I read through the KJV with a mind to settle the tri-lemma, resulting in the realization that "hell" and annihilation do not make the cut. A refinement of understanding is involved, where an idea which once seemed to make sense, no longer did, given a wider view of the Scriptures. God also refines us, as He did with me when I was a confident atheist, tapping me on the shoulder (so to speak) and announcing Himself to me. I intend that as my answer to you about how those who reject Jesus the Christ come to have "eternal" life. BTW, we will never have truly eternal life, because we have a beginning...even if we (and we will) live forever. Back on track, God will announce Himself to all, refining and saving them, just as the Scriptures say, "...but every man in his own order." That is how God becomes All in all.

MMXX said:

Why do you say that? There isn't you've come up with that I haven't seen addressed by universalists. You may not like or agree with it, but from what I've seen, they have a good scriptural answer for everything.

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So feel free to provide one of these "answers," lol.

I have shown how the verses quoted were quoted out of context. Show where I am wrong.

Just because their "answers" sound good to you doesn't mean they are legitimate. But I don't expect you to address the posts simply because you cannot. Not trying to be rude, it's just a fact. If you'd like to prove me wrong and show my error, then please do so, rather than simply providing opinion.

You can start by interpreting this:


Revelation 22:17-19
King James Version

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


God bless.

Lazarus Short said:

I interpret the above Scripture very simply: do not add to or take away from the Scriptures as inspired by God. But they did, as theology guided translation. I have gotten rid of Bible versions (won't name them) because of it.

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That is not an interpretation, that is simply stating what the verse says.

Specifically, what does He mean when He says—


Revelation 22:17-19
King James Version

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


I am out of time, but will address this post before I go. I may have to come back to this at a later time, but I would like to know how you interpret this as a universalist.


God bless.

Lazarus Short said:

Now, just so you know, I am a Universalist. I once subscribed to the "hell" theory, and once was a member of a church which stressed annihilation of the "lost." I read through the KJV with a mind to settle the tri-lemma, resulting in the realization that "hell" and annihilation do not make the cut. A refinement of understanding is involved, where an idea which once seemed to make sense, no longer did, given a wider view of the Scriptures. God also refines us, as He did with me when I was a confident atheist, tapping me on the shoulder (so to speak) and announcing Himself to me.

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So show me where God's refining makes obsolete the passages that teach Eternal Damnation.

Blaming translations is not much of an argument, because we are in need of looking at the original languages and placing what is taught in a proper context. Every translation has problems, but we don't stop at the translation, just as we don't, as serious Bible Students—stop at an interpretation.

Lazarus Short said:

I intend that as my answer to you about how those who reject Jesus the Christ come to have "eternal" life.

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It's not an answer.

How exactly is your life story and a reiteration of what the passage says an answer?

Go back and read what you said and point out the answer.

Lazarus Short said:

BTW, we will never have truly eternal life, because we have a beginning...even if we (and we will) live forever.

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"Eternal" and "everlasting" are translations used to reference the Life we receive when we are baptized into Christ.


Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal G166 life.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting G166 life.


We do have "eternal life" because we partake of God's nature. That is why we have eternal life, because we are in Him that is eternal. It is similar to a babe in the womb being human because it is in a human mother.

But since you bring it up, how is it that you can distinguish "everlasting" in regards to salvation—but not in regards to eternal damnation, torment, and darkness?

If the judgment of God is not everlasting then what makes you think salvation is? And because we see eternal damnation described in physical terms it cannot be written off as "...it's a done deal" argument. Worms that don't die, fire that is never quenched, torment that is unending.

Please explain that.

Lazarus Short said:

Back on track, God will announce Himself to all, refining and saving them, just as the Scriptures say, "...but every man in his own order." That is how God becomes All in all.

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Again, a loose quote out of context. 1 Corinthians is referring to those who have believed the Gospel, not to all of mankind.

Nor does it detract from the judgment that will fall upon those that reject Christ.


1 Corinthians 15:22-24
King James Version

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Do you really not see that this is referring to those that belong to Christ? Do you really reject Christ's teaching that there are those who are His sheep and those who are not?

Do you really include unbelievers in the Kingdom of Heaven? That is what you are doing.


How about interpreting this:


2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
King James Version

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


You cancel the Gospel of Jesus Christ with universalism. You are teaching men they can be saved even though they reject Christ. That you don't see this as contrary to Scripture is pretty amazing.

God bless.