Re: The big scary world of science

[Matthewj1985]

This thread:

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7281980

Was posted in the "Creationism" subforum and since it is haram to debate there I figured I would bring it out in the open.

 

[Matthewj1985]

Your reaction is typical of evolutionists. I specifically pointed out that I was educated in Biology, but you missed that one little detail because you were much more interested in the fact that I did not work in that field.

I noticed that you "studdied" biology about 40 years ago. That is wholly different than actually working in the field or holding a degree in it.

Intelligent design advocates may in some cases have a religious reason for their persuasion. I make no apology for the fact that I believe the Bible over anything and everything else.

But intelligent design is not based on religious belief. And there is not even one proven principle of Biology that is contradicted by the concept of intelligent design.

Actually federal court disagrees with you. See in the courtroom unlike on the internet, when you make false statements (like, there are no transitional fossils) you actually get called on it and are shown to not know what you are talking about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District

There are unsurmountable logical problems in evolutionary theory, not the least is the principle if irreducible complexity. If you can demonstrate a series of logical steps by which even one organ of even one organism could have gradually developed, you may have put a chink in this armor. But I do not know of even one organ of even one organism that could have developed as a series of gradual changes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_HVrjKcvrU

This is because evolutionary theory requires not only that natural selection retains useful features, it also rejects useless ones. You can't have one without the other.

Huh?

So the various organs of the various organisms each had to suddenly appear in a sufficiently developed form to give its owners a distinct reproductive advantage. For this to have happened once would be fantastic. But the odds against it having happened again and again, over and over are absolutely prohibitive. This is one of the reasons why so few mathematicians are evolutionists.

See video.

 

[Matthewj1985]

Well if you say so!

So you're saying that there's nothing (by way of a 'system') that can't be reduced still further, and still be a 'system'?

So if I take a car, and take out the engine, it's still a working car?

I was so intrigued by your claims I looked at Wiki, which claims (footnote 31^ a b c A reducibly complex mousetrap (graphics-intensive, requires JavaScript)) that Behe's irreducible 'mousetrap' idea has been debunked by a John H. McDonald.

I was so underimpressed by his argument I e-mailed him with the following...
Sir,
I was looking at the animations in http://udel.edu/~mcdonald/mousetrap.html. Your first mousetrap consists of a piece of wire, shaped so as to have a springy affect if the wire's ends are pressed closer together.

What draws the mouse to the trap?

What forces the trap to close upon the mouse?

What's the wire resting aginst (can't the mouse just make off, even with a wire trapped around it)?

What causes the wire to develop a spring in it for the second stage of the trap?

Who or what is determining that the trap is working so as to make changes?

Please tell me Jesus' shoe size or the whole bible is false.
[/sarcasm]

Really though what the heck does a car have to do with any of this? We are talking about the gradual evolution of particular systems and you just bring up cars.

Also the mousetrap was actually brought up by Behe and the people debunking it are just showing how silly it is. Please take a look at the video I posted above if you would like a REAL demonstration about how IC is not a valid theory.

 

[Matthewj1985]

Galileo was wrong.
God's word -never mind what the RC says, it is the Word of God that is the authority- states that the sun rises and sets, as the moon does, and that the sun, moon, and stars run their courses. The earth, OTOH, was created first, and is fixed on it's foundations, with the sun, moon and stars revolving around it.

The sun once stood still for about a day and once the sun went backwards for ten degrees, but always, the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, running about and coming again, and it was not even made or set in it's orbit until the fourth day of creation, as the moon also was not.

We cannot get outside of our "fishbowl" to see what it is really like out there, but it is not what so called "scientists" say it is, when they deny all Truth as is written in the Word of God.

Care to explain to me how the earth was formed before the sun? Also what is our "fishbowl"? I am pretty sure it was one of the Mariner ships that has actually left our solar system, I would call that "out of the fishbowl".

 

[Matthewj1985]

Every true Bible Believer believes that God's Word is true from the beginning.
God states that the sun rises and sets, abnd states that fact many, many, many times. Never does God state that the earth revolves or goes around the sun.
Once, the sun stood still for almost a whole day, and once the sun went backwards ten degrees.
The earth is fixed in the heavens, from the beginning of it's creation, states God's Word.
I am not Roman Catholic, but you are wrong about Roman Catholics and Geocentrism.

http://www.catholicintl.com/products/books/gwwprint.htm

Are you actually asserting that our planet is the center of the universe?

 

[AV1611VET]

Care to explain to me how the earth was formed before the sun?

Our earth wasn't "formed" --- it was brought into existence ex nihilo.

In fact, the Bible makes it very clear that the earth was without form ---

And the earth was without form...

 

[Assyrian]

Not even spherical?

 

[AV1611VET]

Not even spherical?

It wouldn't have been when it was nothing but seawater in the palm of God's hand --- unless you want to consider plano-convex.

 

[Assyrian]

It wouldn't have been when it was nothing but seawater in the palm of God's hand --- unless you want to consider plano-convex.

That was the seas, we are talking about the earth. If the earth was not providing the gravity, what makes you think the seas flowed into the contours of God's palm prints?

 

[AV1611VET]

That was the seas, we are talking about the earth. If the earth was not providing the gravity, what makes you think the seas flowed into the contours of God's palm prints?

The seas didn't "flow into the contours of God's palm prints" --- gravity didn't exist at the time.

I envision God holding His hand out and ordering the earth to appear; and there it is: seawater in the palm of His hand [singular].

 

[Matthewj1985]

Our earth wasn't "formed" --- it was brought into existence ex nihilo.

In fact, the Bible makes it very clear that the earth was without form ---

Ok, where is your proof for this?

 

[AV1611VET]

.
​

Ok, where is your proof for this?

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

 

[Matthewj1985]

.
​

/facepalm.....

That argument might work for you but since the only proof for the divinity of the bible we have is that "it must be true because it says so right there, see", so please stop using the biblical argument. While it might be just fine for you, some of us here are rational folk and need more than just that.

 

[AV1611VET]

/facepalm.....

That argument might work for you but since the only proof for the divinity of the bible we have is that "it must be true because it says so right there, see", so please stop using the biblical argument. While it might be just fine for you, some of us here are rational folk and need more than just that.

I thought maybe you wanted an explanation from our perspective. After all, didn't you ask for one here:

Care to explain to me how the earth was formed before the sun?

What other answer is there?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Verse one is a stand-alone statement that describes the beginning of the entire material universe, and thus time as well:

"In the beginning God created the heaven(s) and the earth."

Perhaps billions of years passed before the event described in verse two:

"And the earth was (became) without form and void (a chaotic wasteland), and darkness was upon the face of the deep (a waterworld covered by a form of darkness that excluded light)." The 'light' was there, it just couldn't reach earth. Verse three describes the removal of this 'darkness' (smoke, dust????) thus allowing the pre-existing light from the sun, moon, and stars, to reach earth.

What follows is a restoration of the surface only of earth; the creation of an environment suitable for man. Yes, this is the oft reviled Gap Theory (yikes!).

owg

 

[Assyrian]

The seas didn't "flow into the contours of God's palm prints" --- gravity didn't exist at the time.

You know gravity didn't exist at the time?

I envision God holding His hand out and ordering the earth to appear; and there it is: seawater in the palm of His hand [singular].

Which is it the earth, or just the seas?

 

[AV1611VET]

You know gravity didn't exist at the time?

I don't think gravity showed up until God said, "Let there be light" in verse 3.

Which is it the earth, or just the seas?

Both --- the earth was embedded in the seas --- or, as I like to put it:

• TERRA AQUA gave rise to TERRA FIRMA

And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

 

[pgp_protector]

/facepalm.....

That argument might work for you but since the only proof for the divinity of the bible we have is that "it must be true because it says so right there, see", so please stop using the biblical argument. While it might be just fine for you, some of us here are rational folk and need more than just that.

Then avoid talking to AV.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Care to explain to me how the earth was formed before the sun? Also what is our "fishbowl"? I am pretty sure it was one of the Mariner ships that has actually left our solar system, I would call that "out of the fishbowl".

The 'fishbowl' is that which bounds us inside a system which we canot get out of and look back upon, to consider and measure from outside it, without dying and not being able to return.


Why should I explain to you what God has already plainly stated.
Not only did YHWH Elohym make the heavens and the earth before the sun, but He also made the light before the sun -three whole days before the sun.

You see the light of His day as it comes forth before the sun each new day, and as it withdraws after the sun each evening. We call it dawn and twilight, but that is the head and the tail of His "Day =light" of day one, when YHWH Elohym said "Let there be Light", and separated the light from the darkness; and the evening and the morning were the first day/day one.

The sun is not the light of day one, although afterwards the sun and the light are soemtimes used interchangably after the beginning, because the sun gathers in and refracts out that "light".
In the beginning, the day was made before the sun. The sun was set in the heaven on day four to rule the day. The sun is not a light of itself, but is the chandelier, the candle, which gathers in and refracts out that "Light" of creation.
That's just what God said, and He means what He says.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I don't think gravity showed up until God said, "Let there be light" in verse 3.Both --- the earth was embedded in the seas --- or, as I like to put it:

• TERRA AQUA gave rise to TERRA FIRMA

Actually, gravity doesn't exist, but magnetic forces do, and the pillars of the earth were what God set in place to fix the earth upon in the beginning, before He called light into existence.
Those pillars are called "winds" in 1 Enoch, and they are "forces" which we would call magnetic forces -and the earth is firmly fixed in place upon those 'pillars", with one of them being the "foundation", according to the Word of God, and His word as He revealed it to Enoch.