Re-Marriage... Comments deeply appreciated.

[Dave-W]

As I am not from the US, I am wondering what sort of a profile Judith Brumbaugh has...
Is 'Restoration of the Family Inc.' well known?
Is the book in question well known?
Does she have a significant following following?

I never heard of her or the book before this thread.

 

[Dave-W]

As it stands, Judith seems to equate a weak church with rampant contamination of marriage.

IN one sense that is correct. If we take a quick and easy divorce rather than working things out, we will be a weak and contaminated church. Divorce should be the very last and nuclear option. And it must fit New Testament guidelines. ONLY then can the aggrieved party be free to remarry.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Truth Lover said..., "Are you saying that one can ignore what Jesus plainly said? In Matthew 19, Jesus says remarriage is adultery. The only exception is when the original marriage is unlawful, such as when first cousins marry."

Matt 19:9 reads: "And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery."

Jesus does not say remarriage is adultery in the case of the first marriage partner being unfaithful. This is because unfaithfulness breaks the marriage covenant and the grieved partner is no longer bound by it.

I see no reference to unlawful first marriage in Matt 19.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

 

[Boaz308]

I have searched the scriptures thoroughly on this subject and if your description is accurate and your wife left you and began living in adultery then you are most certainly released from the bondage of your covenant from the non believing spouse that departed.

 

[Carl Emerson]

From Dave-W, "IN one sense that is correct. If we take a quick and easy divorce rather than working things out, we will be a weak and contaminated church. Divorce should be the very last and nuclear option. And it must fit New Testament guidelines. ONLY then can the aggrieved party be free to remarry..."


Dave I agree, in my case I was super careful to make sure these conditions were met.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

 

[Truth Lover]

Fortunately, Jesus became flesh, partly so that we have the confidence that he has experienced, directly, the human experience. The God of Christianity is not a God of a bunch of "do this or else" rules as is the case with Islam and Mormonism. It is very much a "spirit of the law" teaching.

I disagree. Jesus revealed the Father's will, which is plainly stated in the Gospels and Epistles. It clearly says in black and white that there will be consequences for sinful behavior. If you care about where you spend eternity, you will obey gladly because doing God's will is but a small token of gratitude for Jesus' death on the cross to save us.
If one is following the "spirit of the law," how can one be sure their interpretation of scripture is right? There is too much at stake to make a mistake. It is safer to stick to traditional morality than to take a chance that one is rationalizing away sin.

 

[Almost there]

If one is following the "spirit of the law," how can one be sure their interpretation of scripture is right?

Because they have a relationship with Him.

The bible is good for teaching.

The apostle Paul said that if you are really horny, it is better to get married so that you don't put yourself into a position of too strong temptation for sin. He didn't say that for those who's spouse left them for no valid reason that they are just gonna have to buck up.

 

[Carl Emerson]

This raises a very important issue.

Consider these scriptures -
Romans 7:6
But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Romans 8:4
so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Galatians 3:2
This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Galatians 3:5
So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

So we need to ponder on if we are walking in the Spirit of the Law, or the Law of the Spirit.

I think one of the reasons for confusion on this topic is that often teachings do not make a clear distinction between the Word of God and the Scripture.

Jesus says in John 10 "My sheep hear my voice and they follow me..."

Hearing His voice is the norm for His sheep.

1 John 2:20-29 puts it beautifully...

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.25 This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

28 Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.


If we abide in Him we have no fear of condemnation because His anointing within us is our teacher. This is the Word of God - a title Jesus reserved for Himself - His Spirit within us.

Describing the scripture as the Word of God is very misleading - Satan used the scripture to challenge Jesus. The scripture says of itself in 2 Cor 3:6 that the letter kills but the Spirit gives life.

Jesus superbly demonstrated this when he forgave the woman caught in adultery against the opinion of the scribes who were technically correct according to scripture.

Just a few things to think about,

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Seems true -- divorce is just one more sin to add to my list -- not proud of it.
Today what is of most importance with my new wife of 13 years?
To love her as Christ loves the church -- should keep me busy.
M-Bob

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Now that you have done what you did so as to get where you are --

REPENT

and

LOVE THE ONE YOU'RE WITH.

M-Bob

 

[Truth Lover]

Matt 19:9 reads: "And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery."

Jesus does not say remarriage is adultery in the case of the first marriage partner being unfaithful. This is because unfaithfulness breaks the marriage covenant and the grieved partner is no longer bound by it.

I see no reference to unlawful first marriage in Matt 19.

Matt 19:3-9 says " Some Pharisees approached him, and tested him,[d] saying, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause whatever?” 4 [e]He said in reply, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate.” 7 [f]They said to him, “Then why did Moses command that the man give the woman a bill of divorce and dismiss [her]?” 8 He said to them, “Because of the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 I say to you,[g] whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery.”" NRSVCE version

The other Gospels do not have the "unless the marriage is unlawful" clause. See Mark 10 and Luke 16:18 and also1 Cor 7:10-16 which is also is against divorce. One ought not pick the verse one likes and ignore the others that contradict it. If one searches the Old Testament on Biblegateway, you see how the Mosaic law allowed divorce because of the hardness of their heart, as Jesus said. But divorce is not presented as the ideal. Mal. 2:10-16 equates breaking faith with God is as abominable as divorce. "For I hate divorce, says the Lord, the God of Israel...," as does Hosea 2. The idyllic pictures, ie 2 Kings 4., Ps. 128, Prov. 31:10-31, are of monogamous homes. The books of Proverbs 31 and Sirach exalt the place and character of the wife in the undivided home (Sirach 25:13, 26:1-18).

The footnotes in my New Jerusalem Bible say Matthew 19 included it because "he was responding to rabbinic discussions between two rabbis, since he wrote for a Jewish audience. The word "unlawful" is "porneia" in Greek. Some people interpret that as adultery, but for that sense one would expect another term, moicheia. By contrast, porneia in this context seems to have the technical sense which zenut or 'prostitution' has been used in rabbinic writings when used of a union incestuous because within the degrees forbidden by the Law, as in Lev 18. Such unions contracted legally between gentiles or tolerated by Jews themselves between proselytes must have made difficulties in legalistic Judeo-Christian circles like Matthew when people converted; hence the instruction to break off such irregular unions which is no true marriage."

You have to take this passage in the whole context. In this passage, Jesus is restoring the original relationship between husband and wife. There was no divorce in the beginning. When Jesus prohibited divorce, he was saying that the rights of women should be respected. He means that men should not get rid of a wife like it is property. He is responding to a specific situation with his Jewish audience. That does not mean adultery is grounds for divorce in our day.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Hi there Truth Lover.

Thanks for taking the time to expand on your opinion.

You obviously have a well constructed theology on this topic.

Correct me if I am wrong but you seem to hold the position that humans cant break the bond of a marriage in any circumstances unless the other spouse dies.

You seem to be saying that God Himself will not break this bond either, in any circumstances unless the spouse dies.

You seem then to be saying any thoughts around a 'second marriage' while the first spouse is still alive are sinful and adulterous and any children from such a union are illegitimate.

I guess folks who believe they were led of God to such a 'second marriage' will need to decide whether they or you are deceived.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Love the one you're with.

You have made mistakes before.

But

Don't consider trading this one in.

M-Bob

 

[Truth Lover]

This raises a very important issue.

Consider these scriptures -
Romans 7:6
But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Romans 8:4
so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Galatians 3:2
This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Galatians 3:5
So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

So we need to ponder on if we are walking in the Spirit of the Law, or the Law of the Spirit.

I think one of the reasons for confusion on this topic is that often teachings do not make a clear distinction between the Word of God and the Scripture.

Jesus says in John 10 "My sheep hear my voice and they follow me..."

Hearing His voice is the norm for His sheep.

1 John 2:20-29 puts it beautifully...

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.25 This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

28 Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.


If we abide in Him we have no fear of condemnation because His anointing within us is our teacher. This is the Word of God - a title Jesus reserved for Himself - His Spirit within us.

Describing the scripture as the Word of God is very misleading - Satan used the scripture to challenge Jesus. The scripture says of itself in 2 Cor 3:6 that the letter kills but the Spirit gives life.

Jesus superbly demonstrated this when he forgave the woman caught in adultery against the opinion of the scribes who were technically correct according to scripture.

Just a few things to think about,

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

Read my first post on this topic again. I gave many examples of when a marriage was never a marriage that "God joined together" and so it can be annulled, that is, joined but not a true marriage. Annulment has to do only with conditions at the time the marriage vows were said, not what happened later. If the first marriage is null, then one is free to marry.

About your post above, in Romans and Galatians, Paul is saying to Jewish and Gentiles that a Christian has to obey Mosaic laws like circumcision and the dietary laws. Christians are saved by the death and resurrection of Jesus. He is not saying one can disobey the moral law by calling it the "Spirit of the law." The moral law is still binding as is the commandment to act charitably. Count how many times Paul uses the word circumcision or dietary in those books.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Hi Truth Lover,

Firstly I apologise - I thought you were the author of the book referred to at the beginning of this thread. I am sorry if I offended you.

You said "Paul is saying to Jewish and Gentiles that a Christian has to obey Mosaic laws like circumcision and the dietary laws"

Did you mean this ?? Is this not the matter that Paul took to the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15. The Apostles' conclusion was that such obedience to the law was not necessary - Acts 15: 28,29.

I think this whole issue is not about law but about the heart of God.

We can so easily construct scriptural demands that we think are theologically correct but miss the way the God views our circumstances - this was clearly the case with the woman caught in adultery.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

 

[Truth Lover]

To Carl Emerson:
Paul taught on the issue of Mosaic law to multiple audiences. I was trying to pont out that Paul was not saying we don't have to obey the moral law. He gave examples of serious sin in his Epistles.

I agree that God is merciful. However, he is also just. He revealed the moral law and will hold us accountable when one disobeys. He gives the strength to obey if we ask for it. God does not wink at sin and pretend it is not there. When Cain was tempted to kill Abel, God told him that Cain could master sin if he chose to. God punished Cain for his sin. Gen 4. God also punished David for his adultery.

When we sin, we need to not just repent. We also must make a firm commitment and intention not to sin again. We are all called to holiness so God gives us what we need to do that.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yes indeed, in fact real repentance includes a firm commitment and intention not to sin again.

However the topic at hand is if and why the following views are held...

1. Can humans break the bond of a marriage in any circumstances before the other spouse dies.

2. Will God Himself break this bond in any circumstances before the spouse dies.

3. Are any thoughts around a 'second marriage' while the first spouse is still alive, sinful and adulterous and will any children from such a future union be illegitimate.

4. Are folks who believe they were led of God to a 'second marriage' after being put away by an unbelieving partner - deceived.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

 

[Truth Lover]

1. Can humans break the bond of a marriage in any circumstances before the other spouse dies.

If the first marriage was annulled, yes. See my first post about this.

2. Will God Himself will break this bond in any circumstances before the spouse dies.

No, God will not break the bond if it was a true marriage; that is, not annulled.

3. Are any thoughts around a 'second marriage' while the first spouse is still alive, sinful and adulterous and any children from such a union, illegitimate.

If the first marriage was annulled, yes. See my first post about this. The children of the first marriage are innocent. Legitimacy is a legal issue, not a moral one. If the first marriage was not annulled, the remarriage is adultery.

4. Are folks who believe they were led of God to a 'second marriage' after being put away by an unbelieving partner - deceived.

I have a hard time believing God would lead a person to remarry if it were a sinful union.

An unbaptized spouse at the time the vows are said may be grounds for annulment if that person is the one who leaves the marriage. If that person insincerely promised to raise the children as a Christian, and then breaks it may also count because that falls under a secret vow in addition to the marriage vows.

 

[SPF]

9 I say to you,[g] whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery.”" NRSVCE version

That's an interesting quote from the NRSVCE, we must have different versions of the NRSVCE, because mine says:

9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another commits adultery.”

The other Gospels do not have the "unless the marriage is unlawful" clause. See Mark 10 and Luke 16:18 and also1 Cor 7:10-16 which is also is against divorce. One ought not pick the verse one likes and ignore the others that contradict it.

First thing to point out is that there is no contradiction between the Matthew passage which contains the exception clause and the Mark and Luke passages which do not contain the exception clause. All that means is that the Matthew passage is more detailed than the Mark and Luke passage. The fact that the Mark and Luke passage do not have the exception clause does not mean that the exception clause is not real, or does not exist, or is excluded, it just means that only Matthew has it. And Matthew having it, is enough, for it to be authoritative.

"except for unchastity" You can't ignore the exception clause or wish it away. It's there. I Corinthians is a great section of Scripture to bring up, because Paul does some great expounding upon the nature of the one flesh covenant.

Paul says in I Corinthians 7:12,13 that in the case of an unequally yoked marriage that if the unbelieving spouse wants to stay in the marriage, that the believing spouse must not divorce them. Meaning, it would be a sin for the believing spouse to divorce the unbelieving spouse. God says in verse 14 that He does honor that marriage, even if one is not a Christian.

However, and this is very important, in verse 15 Paul says that if the unbelieving spouse wants to get a divorce, not only is it acceptable, but the believing spouse is not longer "under bondage", meaning, they are free to remarry.

This is extremely important in understanding the nature of the one flesh covenant. The whole idea of marriage and what marriage is, and how God views marriage has really been muddled with the involvement of secular culture. God describes marriage as a one flesh covenant, something that is bound together like a cord of three strands. It involves two Believers and the Holy Spirit.

When two Christians get married they become one flesh. This one flesh covenant is a lifetime commitment. When it comes to two believers, there is only one way, one thing that can happen that is capable of severing the one flesh covenant - adultery. And even if adultery is committed, reconciliation should always be the first goal, though it is not always possible.

Matthew 19 is more about remarriage than it is about divorce. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another commits adultery.”

Notice that adultery is not committed until the divorcee remarries. Well, what this means is that even if a divorce occurs, unless it is for adultery, they are still one flesh in the eyes of the Lord. Therefore, the wife (or husband) who remarries for any reason other than adultery is committing adultery themselves because in the eyes of the Lord, they are still married! It is ONLY in the case of adultery that the one flesh covenant can be broken and that spouse can remarry and NOT commit adultery. That is what's being taught here.

Paul makes this even more clear in I Corinthians as he explains that the one flesh covenant really only exists between two Believing spouses.

 

[Truth Lover]

I posted above about the meaning of "unlawful"or "unchastity." Adultery does not break the covenant because that is not what these words mean. I will stick to that interpretation.