RE. Impossibilty of GOD

[CrystalDragon]

The Bible doesn't describe God as emotionless for a reason.
Please keep in mind that we are made in his image and we are capable of feeling emotions,.
If God were emotionless then being in his image would be similar to being like the Character Spock of the Star Trek Series,.

It doesn't make sense to say "we're capable of feeling emotions because we're made in God's image", because animals feel emotions too. In order to set humans apart from animals as being made in God's image, it would have to be referring to a quality we have that animals don't. And animals most definitely have emotions.

 

[TaylorSexton]

It doesn't make sense to say "we're capable of feeling emotions because we're made in God's image", because animals feel emotions too. In order to set humans apart from animals as being made in God's image, it would have to be referring to a quality we have that animals don't. And animals most definitely have emotions.

The point being made is simply that God could not create something that had a quality that he himself does not have.

 

[CrystalDragon]

The point being made is simply that God could not create something that had a quality that he himself does not have.

What about evil, if God is supposed to be all-good? (though given the Old Testament and Hell I have some questions there) If nothing in creation has a trait that God does not have, then evil most be a trait that God has as well. To say otherwise would mean that evil exists independent of God, which mean that it would exist before God created anything.

 

[TaylorSexton]

What about evil, if God is supposed to be all-good? (though given the Old Testament and Hell I have some questions there) If nothing in creation has a trait that God does not have, then evil most be a trait that God has as well. To say otherwise would mean that evil exists independent of God, which mean that it would exist before God created anything.

This would be true only if God created evil, but Scripture is more than clear in its teaching that God did not create evil. This is not to say that evil exists independent of God, either. After all, evil is not an entity or an existence in and of itself. There is no substance I can point to and say, "There is evil." Rather, evil is the corruption of things already in existence as created by God (who can only create good).

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Like a PERFECT LOAF OF 100% Natural Stone Ground Flour BREAD....

after a few weeks under the sink

might develop some rather awkward flavors and colors !

Rather, evil is the corruption of things already in existence as created by God (who can only create good).

 

[CrystalDragon]

This would be true only if God created evil, but Scripture is more than clear in its teaching that God did not create evil. This is not to say that evil exists independent of God, either. After all, evil is not an entity or an existence in and of itself. There is no substance I can point to and say, "There is evil." Rather, evil is the corruption of things already in existence as created by God (who can only create good).

There's no substance you can really point to and say "There is good" either. There were several things God did (at least in the Old Testament) that are considered violent, wrong, or evil. Not to mention God directly says he created evil or calamity, and one verse says "shall there be evil in a city and the Lord hath not done it?" In addition, if God created everything, he created the capability for corruption because he created everything by default.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

NO!
Woe to whoever taught you this.
It would be better for them if they had never been born.
(Unless they repent)

There were several things God did (at least in the Old Testament) that are considered violent, wrong, or evil.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

(Is that violent, wrong, and evil enough ? ) (for example getting to whoever's motives ?)

 

[CrystalDragon]

NO!
Woe to whoever taught you this.
It would be better for them if they had never been born.
(Unless they repent)

Thinking they should have never been born? Isn't that a bit out of the realm of love that I would think we're supposed to preach as followers of Jesus?

And you say "Woe to whoever taught you this"? Reading the Bible was what taught me this. These verses certainly sound like they could be considered "violent, wrong, or evil":

Deuteronomy 20:16-17 - But in the cities of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes, vyou shall devote them to complete destruction,1the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the Lord your God has commanded

Isaiah 14:21 - Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Didn't God say at an earlier point that he would not punish the son for the sins of the father?)

Hosea 9:11-16 - The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered.” O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don’t give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, “All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children.”

Joshua 6:16-21 - 16 And at the seventh time, when the priests had blown the trumpets, Joshua said to the people, “Shout, for the Lord has given you the city. ndevoted to the Lord for destruction.2 Only Rahab the prostituteand all who are with her in her house shall live, because she ohid the messengers whom we sent. pa thing for destruction and qbring trouble upon it. rthe wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they captured the city. sdevoted all in the city to destruction, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and donkeys, with the edge of the sword.

Exodus 22:22-24 - 22 Ye shall not afflict any widow, or fatherless child.23 If thou afflict them in any wise, and they cry at all unto me, I will surely hear their cry; 24 And my wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless.

Deuteronomy 13:13-19 - Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.”

Ezekiel 9:3-7 -
Now the glory of the God of Israel went up from above the cherubim, where it had been, and moved to the threshold of the temple. Then the Lord called to the man clothed in linen who had the writing kit at his side 4 and said to him, “Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it.”
5 As I listened, he said to the others, “Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. 6 Slaughter the old men, the young men and women, the mothers and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary.” So they began with the old men who were in front of the temple. 7 Then he said to them, “Defile the temple and fill the courts with the slain. Go!” So they went out and began killing throughout the city.

Deuteronomy 13:7-12 - If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst.

Deuteronomy 17:2-5 - Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death.

Jeremiah 15:1-4 - Then the LORD said to me, “Even if Moses and Samuel stood before me pleading for these people, I wouldn’t help them. Away with them! Get them out of my sight! And if they say to you, ‘But where can we go?’ tell them, ‘This is what the LORD says: Those who are destined for death, to death; those who are destined for war, to war; those who are destined for famine, to famine; those who are destined for captivity, to captivity.’ “I will send four kinds of destroyers against them,” says the LORD. “I will send the sword to kill, the dogs to drag away, the vultures to devour, and the wild animals to finish up what is left. Because of the wicked things Manasseh son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, did in Jerusalem, I will make my people an object of horror to all the kingdoms of the earth.”

Just to name a few examples.

Are there instances where God is said to be merciful and gracious in the Old Testament? Sure, there's mentions, but not as much as the explicit actions like those that he orders.

(Is that violent, wrong, and evil enough ? ) (for example getting to whoever's motives ?)

What's that supposed to mean? I don't quite get your wording there.

 

[TaylorSexton]

There's no substance you can really point to and say "There is good" either.

Yes, I can. God did that very thing in Genesis 1. Everything he created is good by nature, but evil by corruption of that nature.

There were several things God did (at least in the Old Testament) that are considered violent, wrong, or evil.

Name one thing God has done that is morally evil. If you name just one instance of God committing moral evil, I will denounce my faith without hesitation or second thought.

Not to mention God directly says he created evil or calamity, and one verse says "shall there be evil in a city and the Lord hath not done it?"

No, the text says he creates in those instances calamity or disaster, not moral evil. It is a fallacy to say that the same root word must mean the same thing in all cases.

In addition, if God created everything, he created the capability for corruption because he created everything by default.

Potential is by definition not an entity. Potential cannot be created, but is possessed by something already created. Sure, created things have the potential for corruption by virtue of their finitude (God is the only one who is incapable of corruption), but it comes from within themselves by the fact that God removes his restraint and they are left to their own devices. God, however, created everything good. Again, evil is not a substance, but the corruption of created substance.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Those examples you quoted are examples of PERFECT RIGHTEOUSNESS, PERFECT WISDOM, PERFECT JUDGMENT
from YHWH, with no fault, with no iniquity at all.

If someone cannot handle the OT, trusting YHWH and relying on HIM,
they are for sure not ready for the tribulation or for judgment day, which will be much much worse (for everyone on earth) than anything in the OT, and
which is very soon.

Just to name a few examples.

 

[TaylorSexton]

Reading the Bible was what taught me this.

I hate to tell you, sister, but Scripture did not teach you this. Rather, you conjured this from your own judgment of what you see in Scripture. Tell me, is it not the divine prerogative to take life, seeing as that he made it? Not only does he give and take life as he chooses (c.f., Job 1:21), but he especially takes the life of the one who offends his righteousness and crosses his holy ordinances; it is entirely just for him to do so. Do you contend with the righteous justice of God and his divine right as giver and taker of life?

 

[Dave-W]

There were several things God did (at least in the Old Testament) that are considered violent, wrong, or evil.

"Are considered .." Considered by whom? Those trying to impose our own modern fallen sense of morality on God?

 

[JM]

I was just having a discussion regarding the impassibility of God yesterday with some friends here at school. I think the problem (for me) has to do with how it is defined. Since we are describing the very nature of God, words and definitions have to be crafted very carefully if they are to remain faithful to Scripture.

In short, I think the way I go about this is by understanding exactly what is happening when Scripture says that God is "X" (insert emotion for "X"). I understand this to mean that this emotion is being manifested at that specific time toward a specific object.

Let me explain with an example. Say Scripture says that God's anger was kindled against someone for their sin (which it says often). Does this mean that God left a state of calmness and entered a state of anger? I don't think so. As has been said above, the doctrine of impassibility (which I fully affirm to be truth) is derived from God's inability to change (i.e., his immutability). Therefore, God has always been angry about sin; he has always been joyful for righteousness; he is always been grieved about treachery; etc. However, God's anger is not always manifest against sinners (because, I would say, of common grace). So, when Scripture says that God feels an emotion, it seems clear to me that it is saying that that particular emotion is being manifested to us. We have to keep in mind that Scripture, because it is human language, is a massive condescension on God's part. Calvin calls it "baby talk." For example, God does not have arms, legs, wings,, doesn't wear a robe, and is neither male nor female, yet Scripture ascribes all of these to him because that it what the Holy Spirit saw fit to effectively communicate truths about God's nature to us.

For a Scripture reference, I think it is interesting that in Romans 1:18 God's wrath is said be "being revealed." It does not say that God is becoming wrathful. It says that his wrath is being revealed. Something has to exist prior for it to be revealed. Therefore, God's "emotions" (all of which are a product of his perfect attributes) have always existed, but are not always manifested. I understand emotions described to God in Scripture to be the latter.

I hope this helps the conversation.

Keep in mind that God may not be moved from one emotion to another as you wrote but is also not "angered" by what takes place in time, according to His decree. God is perfect in Himself, His emotional state is not altered by what takes place in time, by His creation.

I would also say that God decreed evil, it's cause is from God and this was accepted by many Particular Baptists, Gospel Standard Baptists and Primitive Baptists.

Zanchius explains how the ultimate end will result in good…somehow.

God, as the primary and efficient cause of all things, is not only the Author of those actions done by His elect as actions, but also as they are good actions, whereas, on the other hand, though He may be said to be the Author of all the actions done by the wicked, yet He is not the Author of them in a moral and compound sense as they are sinful; but physically, simply and sensu diviso as they are mere actions, abstractedly from all consideration of the goodness or badness of them.

Although there is no action whatever which is not in some sense either good or bad, yet we can easily conceive of an action, purely as such, without adverting to the quality of it, so that the distinction between an action itself and its denomination of good or evil is very obvious and natural.

In and by the elect, therefore, God not only produces works and actions through His almighty power, but likewise, through the salutary influences of His Spirit, first makes their persons good, and then their actions so too; but, in and by the reprobate, He produces actions by His power alone, which actions, as neither issuing from faith nor being wrought with a view to the Divine glory, nor done in the manner prescribed by the Divine Word, are, on these accounts, properly denominated evil. Hence we see that God does not, immediately and per se,infuse iniquity into the wicked; but, as Luther expresses it, powerfully excites them to action, and withholds those gracious influences of His Spirit, without which every action is necessarily evil. That God either directly or remotely excites bad men as well as good ones to action cannot be denied by any but Atheists, or by those who carry their notions of free-will and human independency so high as to exclude the Deity from all actual operation in and among His creatures, which is little short of Atheism. Every work performed, whether good or evil, is done in strength and by the power derived immediately from God Himself, “in whom all men live, move, and have their being” (Acts 17.28). As, at first, without Him was not anything made which was made, so, now, without Him is not anything done which is done. We have no power or faculty, whether corporal or intellectual, but what we received from God, subsists by Him, and is exercised in subserviency to His will and appointment. It is He who created, preserves, actuates and directs all things. But it by no means follows, from these premises, that God is therefore the cause of sin, for sin is nothing but auomia, illegality, want of conformity to the Divine law (1 John 3.4), a mere privation of rectitude; consequently, being itself a thing purely negative, it can have no positive or efficient cause, but only a negative and deficient one…[end quote]

Before Zanchius brought us to this point, showing that God acting “directly or remotely” is not the “Author of them in a moral and compound sense,” he teaches in Position 2;

That God often lets the wicked go on to more ungodliness, which He does (a) negatively by withholding that grace which alone can restrain them from evil; (b) remotely, by the providential concourse and mediation of second causes, which second causes, meeting and acting in concert with the corruption of the reprobate’s unregenerate nature, produce sinful effects; (c) judicially, or in a way of judgment. “The King’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of waters; He turneth it whithersoever He will” (Prov. 21.1); and if the King’s heart, why not the hearts of all men? “Out of the mouth of the Most High proceedeth not evil and good?” (Lam. 3.38). Hence we find that the Lord bid Shimei curse David (2 Sam. 16.10); that He moved David himself to number the people (compare 1 Chron. 21.1 with 2 Sam. 24.1); stirred up Joseph’s brethren to sell him into Egypt (Genesis 50.20); positively and immediately hardened the heart of Pharaoh (Exod. 4.21); delivered up David’s wives to be defiled by Absalom (2 Sam. 12.11; 16.22); sent a lying spirit to deceive Ahab (1 Kings 22.20-23), and mingled a perverse spirit in the midst of Egypt, that is, made that nation perverse, obdurate and stiff-necked (Isa. 19.14). To cite other instances would be almost endless, and after these, quite unnecessary, all being summed up in that express passage, “I make peace and create evil; I the Lord do all these things” (Isa. 45.7). See farther, 1 Sam. 16.14; Psalm 105.25; Jer. 13.12,13; Acts 2.23, & 4.28; Rom. 11.8; 2 Thess. 2.11, every one of which implies more than a bare permission of sin. Bucer asserts this, not only in the place referred to below, but continually throughout his works, particularly on Matt. 6. § 2, where this is the sense of his comments on that petition, “Lead us not into temptation”: “It is abundantly evident, from most express testimonies of Scripture, that God, occasionally in the course of His providence, puts both elect and reprobate persons into circumstances of temptation, by which temptation are meant not only those trials that are of an outward, afflictive nature, but those also that are inward and spiritual, even such as shall cause the persons so tempted actually to turn aside from the path of duty, to commit sin, and involve both themselves and others in evil. Hence we find the elect complaining, ‘O Lord, why hast Thou made us to err from Thy ways, and hardened our hearts from Thy fear?’ (Isaiah 63.17). But there is also a kind of temptation, which is peculiar to the non-elect, whereby God, in a way of just judgment, makes them totally blind and obdurate, inasmuch as they are vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.” (See also his exposition of Rom. 9.)[end quote]

Yours in the Lord.