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Re-Evaluating Rapture Theology
- Thread starter HeavensWorship
- Start date
What I'm about to share with you will absolutely shock you.
17 years ago the Holy Spirit spoke to me very clearly. Throughout my life the Lord has only spoken to me like this on a few occasions - 1 day before the sudden death of my 3 year old daughter was once such occasion.
I find it absolutely essential to hear from the Author of the Bible Himself instead of relying on old teachings that originated from who knows where, OR relying on your own mental abilities to figure this thing out. Believe me! Do not put your faith on either of those two things. Put your faith in Him, and hear from Him!
I GUARANTEE that if you honestly think about the things I am about to say Bible prophecy will come together like never before. And everything will actually make sense. But PLEASE give this a chance. Read it carefully, and think about it thoroughly before you submit a reply!
Factoid #1
Having said that, the Author of the scriptures told me very clearly that the last day government and the Antichrist will be Islamic. Before you get offended, or before you say "no" please let me explain. Read carefully:
The bible is clear, an antichrist is someone who does not acknowledge Jesus as coming in the flesh. In other words, a person who does not acknowledge that Jesus (the eternal One), came in the flesh (a human) is an antichrist. Or stated another way... those who deny that God came in the flesh is of the spirit of antichrist.
There is only one predominant religion in the world that aggressively teaches and preaches against the divinity of Jesus. They do not accept that Jesus was pre-existent as God before he was born. In fact, if any Muslim under Islamic Sharia law were to profess Jesus as the Eternal One who came in the flesh they face death - in particular beheading. For some reason they love to behead people... if you don't believe me just check out some of the videos on the Internet of Islamic militants beheading people - they are following true Islamic teaching - Sharia law. Believe me - I married a Muslim. Thank the Lord she had a wonderful life changing encounter with Jesus. Since then she renounced Islam, and devoted her heart and life to Jesus!
Fasten your seat-belt. Here we go:
Factoid #2
Hard core Islamic countries know Islamic "prophesies" very well. They teach and preach them. You would be AMAZED at the correlation between Islamic prophecy and Bible prophecy. Rather, I should call it negative-correlation because everything is upside down. EVERYTHING we teach about the Antichrist is what they teach about their "coming savior" the Mahdi! I mean EVERTHING. But keep in mind they teach the Mahdi is the "good" one, the "savior" if you will.
And EVERYTHING the Bible teaches about the false prophet who will accompany the Antichrist is EXACTLY what they teach about "Jesus" who is supposed to accompany the Mahdi, according to them.
They teach that the Mahdi is supposed to come on the scene, set up a global government with a global currency, and will be accompanied by "Jesus" who will implement Islamic Sharia law.
Please note that A LOT of people believe Islamic teachings about the coming Mahdi and "Jesus". A LOT. We just don't see too much in the west. We don't hear about it much in Christian circles.
I'm not going to go into much detail here, but BELIEVE ME - its like they took Bible prophecy and turned it upside down. Good becomes evil, and evil becomes good! Do some googling you'll find out much more.
Factoid #3
Daniel 2:41 speaks of the last-day government as a government that is "mixed"
Daniel 2:44 "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed..."
Obviously this is speaking of the day with the kingdoms of this world is become the Kingdom of our God, and of His Christ! This is the day when Jesus comes back to wage war, win the war, and RULE!
So then, the "mixed" kingdom is the last kingdom the world as we know it will ever see. The "mixed" kingdom is the LAST kingdom of this world. Then Jesus will come!
The Hebrew word in the original manuscripts that is translated "mixed" is the Hebrew word "Arab" from which we get the word "Arab, and from which the word "Arabian" is derived.
Literally Daniel said that the last day government will be "Arab"!
Final Thoughts
When the disciples asked Jesus about the end times the first thing he said was NOT to believe anyone who claims to be the Christ because he knew the Antichrist (Mahdi) will come with a false christ who they will say is "Jesus".
Jesus goes on to say that in those days people will kill you thinking that they are doing the will of God. Islam fits this description. The last thing the 9/11 terrorists said before they crashed into the buildings was "Alahu Akbar" meaning "God is Great!" They are killing, thinking that they are doing the will of God.
In fact, the Antichrist (Mahdi) will kill all who do not follow Sharia law. How? The same way they always have done it, even to this day - beheading. Don't believe me? Do a search on the Internet. You will find lots of videos of people being beheaded by Islamic militants.
This explains why the Bible says there will be lots beheaded in the last days.
But how and why would Islam be the end time global religion? The religion of the Antichrist
- Islam is advancing forcefully and continues to grow exponentially
- Islam is the only world religion that provides a concrete political system that will put an end to much of the evils of today (homosexuality, abortion, seductive spirits of half naked or fully naked women, etc...etc...etc..)
- People are afraid of Muslims - generally speaking - the consensus is that you can speak against Christianity openly but don't you dare speak against Mohammad. You will pay!
- Islam is focused like a laser beam on taking over the political systems of the world. Check it out on the Internet. For example: They brag about how more and more Muslims are getting government positions. They are focused on world domination and are forcefully advancing with militancy such as we do not currently see in any other religion. And the "politically correctness" of our culture is making way for them.
- Islam presents a solid system of government and religion that Christianity is miserably failing at.
- Many of you don't know this but there is an organization call the OIC (Organisation of the Islamic Conference). The OIC is an association of 56 Islamic countries promoting Muslim solidarity in economic, social, and political affairs.
Can you imagine getting 56 countries together for the sake of the furtherance of Christianity? We can't even get two together to promote Christianity! Yet they have 56 (and counting) countries standing together for the sake of Islam. That is a force to reckon with!
In a nutshell, from what the LORD has shown me, and from what I have gleaned from 20 years of study this is what will happen:
- The "good 'ole" Christians will continue to die off. The churches are full of older people who will not be will us very much longer. The Christianity of developed nations is dying. 150 years ago there was much better morals, and much better Christianity in our culture.
- People are becoming more and more lost because of secularism. They are losing sight of the God of the Bible. They are entering 'limbo' land spiritually. This culture is becoming more and more corrupt (rotten) because the "salt" of the earth is dying off and fizzling out. The church has lost its ability to be the "salt" and do what the main purpose of salt was in Jesus day - preserve from corruption - preserve from rottenness. We are failing to preserve.
- Iran and other Muslim countries are agressively teaching that the Mahdi is coming soon, with "Jesus" (false Jesus of course), thus preparting the world for the Antichrist
- Terrorism, and the #1 crime in the world - ID theft is abounding! Thus catalyzing the need of a global government with financial security (the mark), and national security (Sharia law)
- The Antichrist will come. The world will know him as the Islamic Mahdi. The false prophet will come. The world will know him as Jesus
- They will put to death all who refuse to honor the teachings of Islam, and the government system. This is according to Sharia law as is practiced in many countries already.
- They will set up a global currency that will be implemented by a microchip planted in the right hand or forehead of every person, thus symbolizing their acceptance of the end time Antichrist system. They will make it look good by saying that it will completely do away with the black market, illegal drugs, ID theft and tax evasion.
- The temple will be rebuilt
- The false prophet (Muslim "Jesus") will enter the temple, before the orginal ark of the covenant and cause the abomination that causes desolation.
- 3.5 years of entense tribulation will occur
- The REAL Jesus will come back with great power and great glory to rule and reign! Those who are on the earth at the time (144,000) will be caught up together with Him in the air - thus fulfilling "rapture" scriptures.
- So shall we ever be with the LORD - HALLELUJAH!
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zeke37
IMO...
here at this sub-forum, not much "shocks" me anymore.
they are not the "only" one.
the present day Jewish faith does the same...worse even.
ya, i realized that a long time ago.
but it doesn't mean he will be a muslim, or Jew, or Christian for that matter.
rather that he will lead them as they believe his lies.
much like what i think the same guy will do to Christianity...
he will lead them as they will believe his lies.
IMO the false prophet IS the antiChrist...another title...
a contrast to Jesus being the true prophet...
i do not think there is another individual
but i know why most folks think there is.
it has to do with who leads the Iron beast.
IMO man (clay) mingled / mixed with angels (iron)
6151
`arab
ar-ab'
(Aramaic) corresponding to '`arab' (6148); to commingle:--mingle (self), mix.
6148
`arab
aw-rab'
a primitive root; to braid, i.e. intermix; technically, to traffic (as if by barter); also or give to be security (as a kind of exchange):--engage, (inter-)meddle (with), mingle (self), mortgage, occupy, give pledges, be(-come, put in) surety, undertake.
it doesn't say that.
if you are referencing Rev20,
it says that there were beheaded folks, like John the baptist
in the past...even present...
but it does not say that they were beheaded in the trib.
nor is it meant to imply that.
Satan, the fallen angel,
will pretend to be Jesus Christ returned.
he is coming here playing church, not lopping off heads.
he wants to be worshipped as God.
who's gonna worship (as God) someone lopping off heads?
to be honest, there's a lot there i disagree with.
i see the antiChrist/muslim end time connection, as you do...
but he will likewise fool not only the muslims, but the Christians too.
no micro chip needed, a world wide currency would do that on it's own.
no temple rebuilt, as we are the temple of God
no 3.5 year tribulation, as the time was shortened for the elect's sake
the arc is in heaven (and pointed to Jesus anyway), as seen in Rev
to be "caught up in the air" means to be "seized" to Jesus
in the "changed" heavenly/spiritual body, same as 1Cor15.
there is no "up".
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The AC will be seen as the Mahdi by Muslims but Jesus will not be seen by them as a type of a false Christ. That is Mahdi's role is Islamic eschatology, as a savior. Jesus in Arabic is called Isa and in Islamic thrology they call him Isa son of Miriam. This is their acknowledgment of him as a prophet of God and is also their denial of him as the Son of God. Islam does not believe that God has a son and if I am not mistaken that is a rough translation of the Arabic script seen encircling the dome of the Rock on the Temple Mount. They believe that Isa son of Miriam will come and kneel behind Mahdi as a lesser then.
I also think that allah akbar is correctly translated as god is greater implying that their god is the greatest god.
Indeed I also believe that a lot of people will be beheaded in the last days, perhaps even hundreds of millions if the final beast empirie is indeed wrldwide maybe, hopefully, less if the use of the word whole or all is meant to be understood as a more localized or regional geographical area. It is pretty much guranteed that many Christians and Jews will die in the greatest holocaust the world has ever witnessed. I am of the mind that it will make 1939-1945 look like a match when compared to a roaring bonfire but I sure hope not. Here is a list of some NT scriptures that reveal the scale of some of this.
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4, NASB95)
and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. (Matthew 22:6, NASB95)
Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, (Matthew 23:34, NASB95)
Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. (Matthew 24:9, NASB95)
Which one of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? They killed those who had previously announced the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become; (Acts 7:52, NASB95)
I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth. (Revelation 6:8, NASB95)
And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also. (Revelation 6:11, NASB95)
And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed. (Revelation 13:15, NASB95)
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28, NASB95)
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I'm a little confused about what you are saying. I say that the AC will be viewed as the Mahdi, and the "false prophet" as the Bible teaches, will be viewed as Jesus by the Muslims.
I am very aware of Jesus' Muslim name, Isa, as my wife spent most of her life born and raised as a Muslim in a Muslim country. I am also very aware of their views on God's ability or lack of ability to have a son.
I understand that the Mahdi is viewed as savior in Islam. But this is very much a political savior and not a "spiritual" savior as we see Jesus. In other words, Islam teaches the Mahdi will be the savior as far as a political leader who will turn the world to Islam.
However, as far as I understand Islam does not teach that the Mahdi's role will be that of a "prophet". That is where Jesus (the false christ) comes in. This false Jesus, who Muslims will claim to be the real Jesus, will be more of a "prophet". And Mahdi will be more of a ruler.
Let's put it this way: the president of Iran and the Ayatollah's are like the Mahdi, and Jesus (the false Jesus). One leads as a king would lead. The other takes care of the spiritual part of things.
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There is no rapture because Jesus never mentions one, either in the Gospels or in the Revelation given to us directly by Jesus. It is a figment of Paul's imagination.
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In number 2 you have 2 choices listed it looks like to me.
Part A.Jesus was talking to the church in Philadelphia ONLY -which could have referred literally to the church in Philadelphia at that day and time,
Part B. or prophetically speaking of another "church age" that has already passed,
I am sure that there are other possibilities. It does seem as if it was not really directed towards the churh of that age, a conclusion one could reach if the traditional manner in which people view the translation of the Greek word holos is applied. The traditional way is to assume that when the Bible says whole world it means global. Since this is a real letter directed towards real people in a real place in time one would not be to radical in exegesis to assume that it was aimed in the first tense at them. In that sense the season ('hour' in some translations:Greek: hora) of testing may have been limited to a geographical, political, or cultural arena and not planetwide as we oft assume. And now that I express it like that I think it makes a Biblical case for the whole position of 'all the world',' 'whole world,' and the like for being regional at times, or localized rather then global.
Shucks thats enuff of that for awhile. Love ya, JE
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If you read my posts you will see that I don't believe in the rapture as some evangelicals teach. However I wouldn't go as far as to say that Paul is writing from figments of his imagination. I think that is disrespectful. As if we know better than Paul. Remember, Paul is one of the most influential and highly respected Christians that have ever lived, giving us 2/3 of the New Testament. If he doesn't know what he is talking about you better throw out two thirds of the NT!
Remember two things:
1. The bible says that Jesus said and done more things than any book can ever contain. So just because it isn't written doesn't prove that He didn't say it!
2. Jesus, Himself said that there is MUCH more that we are to learn. That is one of the reasons why He sent the Holy Spirit. He clearly said that the Holy Spirit will take up where He left off, and teach us more, and lead us into all truth.
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Its important to be careful when reading the Scriptures not to isolate a verse or two from their passage, or a passage from its context within the passages concerning its subject, or passages from the entire book they are in, or any element from the entire Scripture. This can lead to problematic interpretations. Its akin to taking a paragraph from a chapter in a novel and trying to sum up the entire novel and its meaning based solely on that one paragraph. The paragraph must be understood in context of the rest of the story or it becomes easy to lose its real meaning.
You are focusing on the word taken. This word in no way implies death. Youve drawn a parallel with Jesus reference to it being in the last days as it was in the days of Noah. But Jesus also explains what he means by that reference. Simply, the people of the time of Noah went on eating, drinking, marrying and living life as normal until the day the flood came and washed them all away. Once it began and the door to the ark was shut, it was too late for them to escape the flood waters.
But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be (Mat 24:37-39).
Jesus was trying to paint a picture of the attitude of the people at the time of the end. They will continue with their lives as if they have no concern for what is coming. They will ignore or remain willfully ignorant of the things transpiring in the world around them, they will ignore the gospel and those that preach it, they will continue in their sins until the moment arrives when it will be too late.
So the meaning of Jesus reference to the days of Noah was given to us in the same passage where He makes the reference. There is no reason to infer much else. After all, Noah was alive when the flood came, and he was saved from it.
You also made reference to Revelation 13:7, And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. Its important take this passage in context of Prophetic Scripture as a whole. First of all, this Scripture does not say he will kill all saints. It simply states he will make war with the saints and overcome them. But how many of them will he overcome? We are required to infer that all saints are overcome and that he overcomes them by killing them. We must infer these things because the text does not say that he will overcome all saints. It says he will overcome the saints. It may seem like a minor splitting of hairs, but it is very important especially when we consider the rest of Scripture on the subject. Second, it does not say he kills all the saints. It says he overcomes them. There will be persecution, and some saints will die. The question is, should we infer that this text is telling us that they will all die?
I like to look to other Scripture to help paint the whole picture for me. Daniel is another place where we read about him overcoming the saints.
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. But the judgment shall sit, and they [who are they?] shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. (Dan 7:25-27)
And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed [the church], which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Rev 12:15-17)
Now while these passages paint the picture of him making war with the saints, there are others that indicate that there will be some who survive unto the coming of The Lord. Revelation 18 shows that at the destruction of Mystery Babylon as the beast heads into Armageddon, a voice from heaven calls Gods people out of Mystery Babylon. This clearly indicates that they are present and alive at the time this voice calls them out. Daniel 12 tells us that at the time when the last great king of the north falls, all of Gods people will be delivered including those that sleep in the dust.
Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15:51, Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. Paul also explains in 1 Thessalonians 4 that we which are alive and remain will be caught up to meet The Lord at His arrival.
In Jesus story in Matthew 24 (and also in Luke 17), we are told that two people will be in the field and one will be taken while the other one will be left there. Two women will be grinding at the mill working and one will be taken while the other one will be left. Clearly both are depicted as alive and busy at this point. When is one taken? It happens when the Son of Man appears in the clouds in power and glory and all of the tribes of the earth mourn.
So if I take those scriptures about the man of sin making war with the saints in context of what else is said regarding the gathering of His elect at the time of His arrival which is also the time He destroys the man of sin with the brightness of His coming (2 Thes 2:8), the only conclusion I can draw is that not all saints will be killed or die off before His return. So, clearly those passages are not telling us that the man of sin will destroy and kill all the saints, or that all the saints will be dead before the day of The Lord. If that were so, then these many passages depicting saints of God alive and being transformed at His appearing would be inaccurate. Since I do not believe they are inaccurate, I must draw the conclusion that while he will persecute many and many will die along the way, someone will be preserved and left standing when The Lord returns.
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You reference Rev. 13:7 and say overcoming the saints does not mean all of them, and in the same chapter speaking of the same people, in verse 15, it says "as many as" do not worship the image of the beast would be killed, the rest of the population would receive the mark, and not be killed.
Everywhere "as many as" is used in the NT it means all, and that is why I believe there will be NO survivors among the ones who refuse the mark, and thus, no one alive to be "caught up" in any post-trib. rapture.
Just my opinion.
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The Seven Trumpets are the last warnings (see Joel 2:1) that we will have to endure through. At the 7th (last) trumpet, we will be raptured. At that time, the Seven Bowls of God's wrath are realeased on those who are left who have the mark of the Beast.
Now, let me back up. 3 1/2 years prior to this, we have two witnesses (maybe Elijah and Enoch --since they did not die),who evangelize 144,000 Jewish male virgins. I'd like to submit to you that there shall also be enough female Jewish virgins converted for them to repopulate the earth during the Millennial Kingdom.
References to the "supper" and "various birds" gathering is not a feast for us, it is for them --millions and millions of dead bodies in the valley of Megeddo piled as high as a horse's bridle for 200 miles long (blood is used in scripture).
This is a vision of Gehenna in the past, outside of Jerusalem, which was a dumping ground for dead animals and earlier, a place of evil human sacrifice. This perpetual burning dump "where the worm never dies" is a close enough vision of Hell on Earth.
Jesus arrives during a time when 1/3 of the earth will be on fire which would surely darken 1/3 of the sunlight, moon and stars in that part of the world. This is confirmed by the scriptures:
"But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT" Mark 13:24 (also see Is.13:10; Ezek.32:7; Joel 2:10 & 30) "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Matt.24:30
He'll show up when the sky is darkened with smoke and He'll light up the sky!
Sorry to burst the bubble of the Pre-tribbers. It's best that you know now then to be confused and disillutioned when castastrophic events start to happen and we are all still here. As you might suspect, I'm a Mid-Tribber.
I know many will say, "Hey, I thought we were supposed to be raptured and spared all this? This of course will result in a great falling away from the faith expecially after the events of the six trumpets, lasting years!!!
Your faith will be tested ... so hold on. What's the worst that can happen anyway, death. Wait a minute, death, will be a good thing, since we'll be with Him sooner.
Now, let me back up. 3 1/2 years prior to this, we have two witnesses (maybe Elijah and Enoch --since they did not die),who evangelize 144,000 Jewish male virgins. I'd like to submit to you that there shall also be enough female Jewish virgins converted for them to repopulate the earth during the Millennial Kingdom.
References to the "supper" and "various birds" gathering is not a feast for us, it is for them --millions and millions of dead bodies in the valley of Megeddo piled as high as a horse's bridle for 200 miles long (blood is used in scripture).
This is a vision of Gehenna in the past, outside of Jerusalem, which was a dumping ground for dead animals and earlier, a place of evil human sacrifice. This perpetual burning dump "where the worm never dies" is a close enough vision of Hell on Earth.
Jesus arrives during a time when 1/3 of the earth will be on fire which would surely darken 1/3 of the sunlight, moon and stars in that part of the world. This is confirmed by the scriptures:
"But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT" Mark 13:24 (also see Is.13:10; Ezek.32:7; Joel 2:10 & 30) "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Matt.24:30
He'll show up when the sky is darkened with smoke and He'll light up the sky!
Sorry to burst the bubble of the Pre-tribbers. It's best that you know now then to be confused and disillutioned when castastrophic events start to happen and we are all still here. As you might suspect, I'm a Mid-Tribber.
I know many will say, "Hey, I thought we were supposed to be raptured and spared all this? This of course will result in a great falling away from the faith expecially after the events of the six trumpets, lasting years!!!
Your faith will be tested ... so hold on. What's the worst that can happen anyway, death. Wait a minute, death, will be a good thing, since we'll be with Him sooner.
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Again, it never says that all saints are going to be killed. Jesus and Paul among others cannot tell us one thing and someone else tell us another and there be harmony in the word of God. This is why the word must be rightly divided and taken in context of everything else. In other words, it isnt possible to interpret things this way simply because Jesus and Paul told us that some will be alive when He returns. Therefore, nothing can contradict this and be true to Scripture. Fortunately, Revelation does not contradict this at all and even confirms that some will be alive in Chapter 18.
Consider also the promises to the churches at the beginning of Revelation. To the angel (messenger or pastor) of Thyatira John writes that those that commit adultery (spiritually) will be cast into great tribulation, unless they repent (turn away from their sin). However, John writes to the church of Philadelphia that they will be kept from the hour of temptation that will come upon the whole world.
If we reference this with what Daniel wrote in Daniel 11, we can see a purpose to trial and tribulation. And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. (v33-35)
Now we can look at these as archetypes. I dont want to get into a long explanation of this, but we can see certain themes in Scripture that are played out over and over again with different groups of people at different points in time. To give a couple of general examples, The Canaanites were evicted from their land and destroyed because of their continued sin and rebellion and the land was given to the Israelites. The Israelites were evicted from the land and scattered among the nations because they committed the same sins as the Canaanites before them which they were explicitly warned not to do. The rebellious angels are evicted from their place in heaven and cast into the earth because of their rebellion (and ultimately they will be judged). Rebellious people on the earth will be cast from their estate (the earth) into the abyss or lake of fire because of their continued rebellion and sin. What are the common themes? People rebel against God and His commandments, and He removes them from their estate and destroys them.
Its a theme that has been played out before, and will be played out again. We see ourselves in the examples of Scripture, and since we do, we see ourselves reflected in the description of these seven churches. Since God is the same yesterday, today and forever, we see a common type of judgment and outcome for those essentially guilty of the same thing. The Lord remains true and faithful to His word throughout distance and time.
For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. (Mal 3:6)
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. (Heb 13:8)
For almost every example of Gods judgment, we can also see an example of His mercy. He spared Noah when He decided to send the flood. He spared Lot when He decided to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. In Genesis 18:23, Abraham asks God if He will destroy the righteous along with the wicked. God makes it clear that He will not.
In the end, God promises that He will keep some from the hour of temptation that will come upon the world. In the end, we are told that some will remain alive unto the coming of The Lord. We may not like it, but many of the trials that come upon us are a test for us just as they were for Job. They are there for our purification. This is what Daniel 11 (v33-35) demonstrates as well as Revelation And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb (Rev 7:14). Which church does God say will be cast into tribulation? What is the overall purpose of trial and tribulation? Who is told they will be kept from that hour? Why are they kept from that hour? Notice that temptation, trials and tribulation come to all. But the scale is often quite different for those that fail and even enter into a sinful and rebellious state of mind and living as opposed to those who remain faithful through it. Remember Thyatira, the ones that God will cast into tribulation because of their sin? God also promises that those that are part of Thyatira that have not followed the false prophetess teachings will not have more burdens placed upon them (not be cast into great tribulation).
God will preserve some and ultimately save all that turn to Him and remain faithful to Him. Some will be cast into great tribulation. Some will suffer, and some will die. However, not all will. Some will be preserved. Some will be kept from it.
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You must have missed something. Earlier I quoted the scripture from Isaiah 57 which CLEARLY equated the term "taken" with death.
I agree with everything you said about the days of Noah. However, don't forget that the "tribulation" of the flood DID'NT start until ALL of the righteous died except Noah and his family. In fact God said that the flood will not come until Methuselah, the last of the righteous men, died. That is why the name "Methuselah" means "his death shall bring". So God didn't do anything until all of those who knew the Lord - all of the righteous ones -died. Indeed the whole world, compared to 8 people is not much. I believe the 8 people that was kept safe on the ark during the flood is prophetic of the 144,000 who are kept safe in the tribulation.
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Yes, and I would ask those who look for surviving believer converts out of the tribulation, to find a place where "as many as" is used, where it does not mean all.
Rapture first, then all heck breaks loose, some left behind see the light, and are beheaded, Rev. 20:4
Blessed Hope we're looking for is not the anti-christ.
So comfort one another with these words, 1 Thess. 4:18
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We are given no reason to believe that only 144,000 Hebrews will be preserved unto the coming of The Lord. And I did not miss what you said about Isaiah. I simply said in essence that Isaiah cannot contradict what Jesus Himself said or what Paul said; neither can Revelation or any other speaker or writer whose writings we find in Scripture, and we are given no reason to take what Jesus said about those who are taken as a reference to death especially since those who Jesus is speaking about are clearly alive at the time of His return and taken by His angels at His return. This is clearly different than what Isaiah is talking about in the passage you referred to.
Jesus makes it clear that two will be in the field and two working at the mill. This means they are alive, not dead. A dead person would not be grinding at the mill. One will be taken, and the other left. When does this happen? When is one taken? It happens when He returns in the clouds. In other words, the person grinding at the mill must be alive when He returns in the clouds in order to be taken by His angels when He returns in the clouds. Paul says specifically that we (who are we? What group does Paul belong to and thus include himself in?) that are alive and remain as such will be caught up to meet The Lord in the air. He is actually addressing in this passage the fact that some have died. He is comforting the living with the promise of the resurrection of the dead (the dead in Christ will rise first), and he also makes it clear that whoever is alive at that time will be taken as well.
Nothing can contradict this or Jesus and Paul were wrong, either that or those who contradicted them were wrong. It really is as simple as that. If Jesus and Paul were correct, then someone from the same group of believers that Paul included himself in will be alive to be taken when the sign of The Son of Man appears. If we are believers as Paul was, then we are part of that group even though we are far removed in time. No matter how many of us die or how many generations pass between now and the return of Christ, someone who is part of that same group of believers will be alive when He returns.
And again, all does not apparently mean all if it does not include everyone. Fortunately, the scripture does not phrase things in such absolute terms as to encompass all, but rather allows for the exception of some. By your own admission, some will have to be left to witness His return since 144,000 would be part of the all. However, I see nothing in Scripture that limits the survivors to only the 144,000. They are a specific remnant of Israelites that are mentioned as being sealed (as God still plans to honor His covenant with Abraham; see Gen 17:1-8).
After this, we see a host of people of all nations standing before the throne. When we are told who they are, it is revealed that they are those that came out of great tribulation. Again, turn back a few chapters to the beginning of Revelation. Which of the churches are to be cast into great tribulation? Which of the churches are to be kept from that hour of temptation that is to come upon the whole world? In other words, who are these we see in Revelation 7? Would they not clearly have to include those that were cast into great tribulation and died as a result (and it must be understood that these of the number that no man can number that came out of great tribulation are not necessarily limited to only those persecuted by the prophesied man of sin; but rather all who have been martyred throughout the ages for the cause of The Lord)? So where do we see those that are kept from the hour of temptation?
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I ripped the writings of Paul from my Bible. He was also wrong about us being saved entirely by grace and faith. We are told in the Revelation that in the final judgemnt we are judged according to our works.
Again, I challenge you to come up with one instance of Jesus mentioning a rapture.
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Hismessenger
Senior Member
I would say that I believe that much of the confusion about the catching away is predicated on a misconception that God is powerless to keep his people from harm apart from removing them from this life. The teaching of the Passover, The red sea, Noah and the ark, Daniel in the lions den and Shadrack, Mesahck and Abednigo all dispute this belief by the word of God. Something else which also decries the belief of removal is the fact that the church is a thing of the heart and is therefore known only to God. Those who say and boast of the fact that they are Christians and therefore are of those who will be saved by virtue of what they say are displaying one of the very things which will keep them out of the kingdom. For that mentality is the same as Israel carried about them and the gentiles. Thinking they were above because they could be seen of men but in reality their hearts were far from God. If you are hoping for escape rather than glory, you miss the principle behind what Christ went through for us.Glory in us is death for the father.
hismessenger
hismessenger
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