Re-Evaluating Rapture Theology

[HeavensWorship]

I spent most of my 20 years as a Christian believing that there would be two "raptures" or three comings of Christ. The first happened 2000 years ago. The second will happen at any time, and then there will be a 7 year tribulation when we will be taking part in the marriage supper of the Lamb, then we will all come back with Christ for His third coming to rule and reign with Him for 1000 years.

Having said that, and after spending countless hours I must say I have a different view.

To the best of my understanding the "rapture" theology revolves around two portions of scripture 1)When Jesus said that there will be two working in the feild and one will be taken and the other lfet.... and there will be two in bed - one will be taken and the other left.... etc...etc.. and 2)the passage in 1 thessalonians 4:16 where paul said when Jesus comes back we will be caught up together with Him in the clouds.

OK, with that as my basis please let me explain my "different view".

When the disciples asked Jesus what He meant He said somethinmg to the effect of where the vultures gather there the body lies! That scipture has always stumped me until now.

This is what I now believe. Jesus said that as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the coming of the Son of Man. So Jesus drew a clear parallel between the last days and the days of Noah.

So what happened in the days of Noah? The flood didn't come until everyone who knew the Lord was dead (except Noah and his family). The bible makes this very clear. God waited until Methuselah died (the last God fearing man) before the flood came.

Could Jesus mean when one will be "taken" and the other left, that he or she will be "taken" in death? Doesn't that make since when Jesus followers asked him what he was talking about he referred to death?

If you really think about this, it really fits into the big picture a whole lot better than millions of people disappearing into thin air!

I want to make it clear that I do believe that there will be a "rapture" when Jesus comes back on that great and terrible day of the LORD!
But it seems to me that there won't be two raptures. I mean there won't be a rapture when Jesus "sneaks" into the world to get His bride, and then another rapture when He comes yet again!

I think if you re-read all of the rapture scriptures, and all of the scripture about end-time prophecy that you will see that the great tribulation will begin when the antichrist takes over. At that time all who are true followers of Christ will be martyred, previous to that most of the Christians would die off. So then the "taken away" term means death, not disappearing into thin air.

Before you reply, PLEASE re-read the sciptures, and think about it. Remember Isaiah 57 says that the LORD will take away the righteous from the evil to come. How? the scripture is clear in Isaiah 57.. death

 

[josephearl]

““Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him.” (Matthew 24:22–23, NASB95)

What scripture do you have in mind leading you to say all the Christians will be martyred during the great tribulation? I think the one I have inserted above says otherwise.

 

[Kingdom_Come]

“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord” (1 Th 4:17).

When Jesus told them about the one that shall be taken and the other left, they asked where? Jesus gives what seems to be a cryptic answer.

“…And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together” (Luke 17:37).

“…He said to them, ‘Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather’” (Luke 17:37).

Yet that answer not only appears to answer the question of where but also when. Where else do we see this imagery used?

“There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with her mate” (Is 34:15).

A closer examination of Isaiah 34 reveals that Isaiah is prophesying about the day of The Lord, specifically His judgment. We can see parallels in Isaiah 34:4 to what Jesus said regarding the timing of His return.

“And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree” (Is 34:4).

Jesus mentions this event when He describes the circumstances surrounding His imminent appearing and the gathering of His elect.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:” (Mat 24:29).

So we can link what Isaiah is prophesying about to the time period of the Lord’s return. This means we can link what Jesus said to the time period of His return since Isaiah provides that link for us. We also see it in Revelation.

“And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great” (Rev 19:17-18).

So Jesus’ reply is a clear reference to not only where but when one shall be taken and one shall be left. It happens when the eagles (vultures in some translations) are gathered together. They are gathered together for the great and terrible day of The Lord. As far as answering where, look at Revelation 16:16. Of course the gathering of the elect will be from everywhere.

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,” (1 Co 15:51).

 

[erickson]

To the best of my understanding the "rapture" theology revolves around two portions of scripture 1)When Jesus said that there will be two working in the feild and one will be taken and the other lfet.... and there will be two in bed - one will be taken and the other left.... etc...etc.. and 2)the passage in 1 thessalonians 4:16 where paul said when Jesus comes back we will be caught up together with Him in the clouds.

The first one you mention very often isn't seen as the "rapture". (I mean in the pre-trib view.)

So what you're saying here is dubious.

A comparison of 1 Thess. 4/5 and Matt. 24, I suggest, should be enough to destroy both the "pre trib" and partial preterist viewpoints. (Both of which are modern inventions anyway.)

 

[Choose Wisely]

I spent most of my 20 years as a Christian believing that there would be two "raptures" or three comings of Christ. The first happened 2000 years ago. The second will happen at any time, and then there will be a 7 year tribulation when we will be taking part in the marriage supper of the Lamb, then we will all come back with Christ for His third coming to rule and reign with Him for 1000 years.

Having said that, and after spending countless hours I must say I have a different view.

To the best of my understanding the "rapture" theology revolves around two portions of scripture 1)When Jesus said that there will be two working in the feild and one will be taken and the other lfet.... and there will be two in bed - one will be taken and the other left.... etc...etc.. and 2)the passage in 1 thessalonians 4:16 where paul said when Jesus comes back we will be caught up together with Him in the clouds.

OK, with that as my basis please let me explain my "different view".

When the disciples asked Jesus what He meant He said somethinmg to the effect of where the vultures gather there the body lies! That scipture has always stumped me until now.

This is what I now believe. Jesus said that as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the coming of the Son of Man. So Jesus drew a clear parallel between the last days and the days of Noah.

So what happened in the days of Noah? The flood didn't come until everyone who knew the Lord was dead (except Noah and his family). The bible makes this very clear. God waited until Methuselah died (the last God fearing man) before the flood came.

Could Jesus mean when one will be "taken" and the other left, that he or she will be "taken" in death? Doesn't that make since when Jesus followers asked him what he was talking about he referred to death?

If you really think about this, it really fits into the big picture a whole lot better than millions of people disappearing into thin air!

I want to make it clear that I do believe that there will be a "rapture" when Jesus comes back on that great and terrible day of the LORD!
But it seems to me that there won't be two raptures. I mean there won't be a rapture when Jesus "sneaks" into the world to get His bride, and then another rapture when He comes yet again!

I think if you re-read all of the rapture scriptures, and all of the scripture about end-time prophecy that you will see that the great tribulation will begin when the antichrist takes over. At that time all who are true followers of Christ will be martyred, previous to that most of the Christians would die off. So then the "taken away" term means death, not disappearing into thin air.

Before you reply, PLEASE re-read the sciptures, and think about it. Remember Isaiah 57 says that the LORD will take away the righteous from the evil to come. How? the scripture is clear in Isaiah 57.. death

Actually, there will be two raptures.

The pre trib rapture of the church will be like the days of Noah. Noah was in the ark 7 days before the destruction came. (a day can represent a year) This rapture will occur at the trump of God and will include the dead in Christ.

The pre wrath rapture will be like the days of Lot. The very day Lot left Sodom, destruction came. This will be the rapture of Israel, who are the elect. We see the first fruits of this rapture as the 144000, 12000 from each tribe...so we know the harvest will be Israel. This rapture will occur at the last trump and will include the old testment saints.

If you don't think people will disappear then you are not paying attention to your TV. How many stories or TV shows are there about alien abductions.....people lost....people in different dimensions or going back in time. Those shows are there for a reason.

 

[cimbk]

““Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him.” (Matthew 24:22–23, NASB95)

What scripture do you have in mind leading you to say all the Christians will be martyred during the great tribulation? I think the one I have inserted above says otherwise.

I agree there are many scriptures to infer many Christians will escape the hand of the antichrist, even Daniel makes references to areas in the concerning area of his reign in power that will escape his hand (See Daniel 11:41) but I'm glad the OP is searching the scriptures, theres alot of false teaching concerning this topic

 

[HeavensWorship]

““Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him.” (Matthew 24:22–23, NASB95)

What scripture do you have in mind leading you to say all the Christians will be martyred during the great tribulation? I think the one I have inserted above says otherwise.

Rev 13:7 KJV - And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.


Rev 20:4 KJV - And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

From these two scriptures I get that ALL Christians would be beheaded. I say this because logically speaking a Christian cannot worship the beast or have the mark of the beast. Also note that it says in Revelation 13 that he (Antichrist) causes ALL to receive the mark. Scripture also tells us that all who do receive the mark will end up in fire that burns forever.

Having said that, it is only logical to say that ALL Christians will be faced with a choice: renounce Christ and worship the beast, or be beheaded!

* This of course does not include the 144,000 who will be miraculously saved through it all.

 

[HeavensWorship]

“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord” (1 Th 4:17).

When Jesus told them about the one that shall be taken and the other left, they asked where? Jesus gives what seems to be a cryptic answer.

“…And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together” (Luke 17:37).

“…He said to them, ‘Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather’” (Luke 17:37).

Yet that answer not only appears to answer the question of where but also when. Where else do we see this imagery used?

“There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with her mate” (Is 34:15).

A closer examination of Isaiah 34 reveals that Isaiah is prophesying about the day of The Lord, specifically His judgment. We can see parallels in Isaiah 34:4 to what Jesus said regarding the timing of His return.

“And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree” (Is 34:4).

Jesus mentions this event when He describes the circumstances surrounding His imminent appearing and the gathering of His elect.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:” (Mat 24:29).

So we can link what Isaiah is prophesying about to the time period of the Lord’s return. This means we can link what Jesus said to the time period of His return since Isaiah provides that link for us. We also see it in Revelation.

“And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great” (Rev 19:17-18).

So Jesus’ reply is a clear reference to not only where but when one shall be taken and one shall be left. It happens when the eagles (vultures in some translations) are gathered together. They are gathered together for the great and terrible day of The Lord. As far as answering where, look at Revelation 16:16. Of course the gathering of the elect will be from everywhere.

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,” (1 Co 15:51).

I totally understand what you are saying. Please keep in mind I took a formal course in end-time bible prophesy that was quite extensive and taught exactly that.

However, you have to be honest: The scriptures you quoted also makes room for what I am saying.
Although Isaiah 34 mentions a vulture, it does not line up with what Jesus taught in mentioning death. And yes, I do acknowledge that Isaiah 34, earlier in the chapter, does talk about the day of the Lord.
But based upon the fact that Jesus painted a different picture (death), I am not convinced to link the two together.

One must also say that the scripture “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord” (1 Th 4:17) COULD also be talking about the "elect" (144,000) who remain through the tribulation until the Lord comes back with all his saints. At that time will a "rapture" occur.

And once again Rev 19:17-18 "....Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great" ONLY makes sense AFTER Armageddon.
Since only after the last great war will there be such carnage.

And yet again, the "we shall not all sleep" passage can also be referring to those "elect" who remain through the tribulation, the 144,000 who will be on the earth when He returns in a VERY visible way!

Basically what I am saying is that I see from years of study is that some misinterpret the rapture saying that there will be two raptures. And some misinterpret the coming of the Lord, saying that there will be actually three comings 1) 2000 years ago, 2) "quietly" "sneaking the church out of the world", and 3) in great power and great glory which everyone will witness.

I contend that the rapture scriptures are at least in part talking about the dying off, or martyrdom of all the "righteous". And that there will only be one rapture, when Jesus returns once and for all!
Also I don't believe that Jesus, seeing how He is extremely powerful right now, sitting at the right hand of the Father, and shining as bright as the sun in all His glory can possibly "sneak" to earth to get His church. I can't see it. Maybe as a pre-glorified man he could, but now He is WAY too great for that!

 

[cimbk]

Rev 13:7 KJV - And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.


Rev 20:4 KJV - And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

From these two scriptures I get that ALL Christians would be beheaded. I say this because logically speaking a Christian cannot worship the beast or have the mark of the beast. Also note that it says in Revelation 13 that he (Antichrist) causes ALL to receive the mark. Scripture also tells us that all who do receive the mark will end up in fire that burns forever.

Having said that, it is only logical to say that ALL Christians will be faced with a choice: renounce Christ and worship the beast, or be beheaded!

* This of course does not include the 144,000 who will be miraculously saved through it all.

Yet Jesus says to the faithful church in Rev. 3:10
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. ...........although the rapture escape people believe this refers to the rapture, Its very likely those who are solidly following Jesus and keeping His commands will be kept from falling into his hand just as Daniels friends were kept from the fires of the furnace, and Daniel from the lions

 

[HeavensWorship]

Yet Jesus says to the faithful church in Rev. 3:10
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. ...........although the rapture escape people believe this refers to the rapture, Its very likely those who are solidly following Jesus and keeping His commands will be kept from falling into his hand just as Daniels friends were kept from the fires of the furnace, and Daniel from the lions

Very interesting point.

Rev 13:7 says more or less the same thing as Daniel 7:21 - that the Antichrist will prevail against the Christians in war.

Yet Rev 3:10 says exactly what you quoted.

There are only three possibilities regarding Rev. 3:10:

1) the "hour of trial" is not the great tribulation
2) Jesus was talking to the church in Philadelphia ONLY -which could have referred literally to the church in Philadelphia at that day and time, or prophetically speaking of another "church age" that has already passed, or...
3) The bible contradicts itself

Either way Dan, and Revelation is clear over and over again stating that the Antichrist will overpower the Christians in war, and "behead" them (except for the 144,000)

 

[Biblewriter]

Very interesting point.

Rev 13:7 says more or less the same thing as Daniel 7:21 - that the Antichrist will prevail against the Christians in war.

Yet Rev 3:10 says exactly what you quoted.

There are only three possibilities regarding Rev. 3:10:

1) the "hour of trial" is not the great tribulation
2) Jesus was talking to the church in Philadelphia ONLY -which could have referred literally to the church in Philadelphia at that day and time, or prophetically speaking of another "church age" that has already passed, or...
3) The bible contradicts itself

Either way Dan, and Revelation is clear over and over again stating that the Antichrist will overpower the Christians in war, and "behead" them (except for the 144,000)

Your error here is in assuming that the word "saints" necessarily means "Christians." There was never even one "Christian" before the Lord Jesus came, but there were many "saints."

If all those who have already trusted in the Lord Jesus had already been removed from this earth, and God was again dealing with Israel as a people, He could justly use the word "saints" as a description of those whose hearts are set upon himself, even if they have not yet realized that The God they love is the Jesus whose name they despise.

Zechariah 13:6 plainly tells us that when He comes, they will be surprised to see the wounds in his hands. But Zechariah 12:11-14 just as plainly tell us that when they see him, they will ALL repent with mourning.

 

[zeke37]

I spent most of my 20 years as a Christian believing that there would be two "raptures" or three comings of Christ. The first happened 2000 years ago. The second will happen at any time, and then there will be a 7 year tribulation when we will be taking part in the marriage supper of the Lamb, then we will all come back with Christ for His third coming to rule and reign with Him for 1000 years.

Having said that, and after spending countless hours I must say I have a different view.

To the best of my understanding the "rapture" theology revolves around two portions of scripture 1)When Jesus said that there will be two working in the feild and one will be taken and the other lfet.... and there will be two in bed - one will be taken and the other left.... etc...etc.. and 2)the passage in 1 thessalonians 4:16 where paul said when Jesus comes back we will be caught up together with Him in the clouds.

OK, with that as my basis please let me explain my "different view".

When the disciples asked Jesus what He meant He said somethinmg to the effect of where the vultures gather there the body lies! That scipture has always stumped me until now.

This is what I now believe. Jesus said that as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the coming of the Son of Man. So Jesus drew a clear parallel between the last days and the days of Noah.

So what happened in the days of Noah? The flood didn't come until everyone who knew the Lord was dead (except Noah and his family). The bible makes this very clear. God waited until Methuselah died (the last God fearing man) before the flood came.

Could Jesus mean when one will be "taken" and the other left, that he or she will be "taken" in death? Doesn't that make since when Jesus followers asked him what he was talking about he referred to death?

If you really think about this, it really fits into the big picture a whole lot better than millions of people disappearing into thin air!

I want to make it clear that I do believe that there will be a "rapture" when Jesus comes back on that great and terrible day of the LORD!
But it seems to me that there won't be two raptures. I mean there won't be a rapture when Jesus "sneaks" into the world to get His bride, and then another rapture when He comes yet again!

I think if you re-read all of the rapture scriptures, and all of the scripture about end-time prophecy that you will see that the great tribulation will begin when the antichrist takes over. At that time all who are true followers of Christ will be martyred, previous to that most of the Christians would die off. So then the "taken away" term means death, not disappearing into thin air.

Before you reply, PLEASE re-read the sciptures, and think about it. Remember Isaiah 57 says that the LORD will take away the righteous from the evil to come. How? the scripture is clear in Isaiah 57.. death

i was pre trib for a while.[/quote]
i do not think there will be any mass beheadings in the trib.
i think Rev20 refers to the beheaded ones of the past,
like the notible John the baptist.
and even in our day today....

they, along with the folks that don't take the mark during the trib,
reign and rule the ones that do (during the Millennium)

““Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him.” (Matthew 24:22–23, NASB95)

What scripture do you have in mind leading you to say all the Christians will be martyred during the great tribulation? I think the one I have inserted above says otherwise.

ya, i also like the protection promised in Luke20

12But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19In your patience possess ye your souls.
​

put to death is, to me,
refering to the elect literally having to testify against Satan,
who is death.

not a hair on their head will perish, so it is not refering to literal death.

​

 

[zeke37]

Your error here is in assuming that the word "saints" necessarily means "Christians." There was never even one "Christian" before the Lord Jesus came, but there were many "saints."

and, every time in the NT,
who is represented by the word "Saints"?
you may dispute Mat27 as being Christians, but i don't.

who did Saul (Paul) persecute?

Acts10And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
12And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
13Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: 14And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
vvv
vv
v
40But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.
41And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive. 42And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord.



Acts26:9I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
10Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
11And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
​

too many to quote...all explicite James...

i'll try...

in Roman's 1/8/12/15/16
in 1Cor1/6/14/16
in 2Cor1/8/9/13
in Eph1/2/3/4/5/6
in Phil1/4
in Col1
in 1Thes3
in 2Thes1
in 1Tim5
in Phil1
in Heb6/13
in Jude

and although disputed, in Rev5/8/11/13/14/15/16/17/18/19/20

it actually really easy...
just do a bible search on the word saints in the NT.

If all those who have already trusted in the Lord Jesus had already been removed from this earth, and God was again dealing with Israel as a people, He could justly use the word "saints" as a description of those whose hearts are set upon himself, even if they have not yet realized that The God they love is the Jesus whose name they despise.

ya right.
plus, trib converts are a fantasy, and completely debunked by Rev7.
the 144,000 are sealed before the 4 winds blow,
and are the only ones redeemed of men/from the earth (Rev7)

Zechariah 13:6 plainly tells us that when He comes, they will be surprised to see the wounds in his hands. But Zechariah 12:11-14 just as plainly tell us that when they see him, they will ALL repent with mourning.

but will it be accepted?
there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

iow, that doesn't mean that unbelieving Jews of today (or in the trib) are the Saints in prophesy.

if they are good with God, then they are Saints...OT or NT
i find it really hard to believe that God is "good" with an antiChrist theology.

 

[zeke37]

“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord” (1 Th 4:17).

When Jesus told them about the one that shall be taken and the other left, they asked where? Jesus gives what seems to be a cryptic answer.

“…And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together” (Luke 17:37).

“…He said to them, ‘Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather’” (Luke 17:37).

Yet that answer not only appears to answer the question of where but also when. Where else do we see this imagery used?

“There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with her mate” (Is 34:15).

A closer examination of Isaiah 34 reveals that Isaiah is prophesying about the day of The Lord, specifically His judgment. We can see parallels in Isaiah 34:4 to what Jesus said regarding the timing of His return.

“And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree” (Is 34:4).

Jesus mentions this event when He describes the circumstances surrounding His imminent appearing and the gathering of His elect.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:” (Mat 24:29).

So we can link what Isaiah is prophesying about to the time period of the Lord’s return. This means we can link what Jesus said to the time period of His return since Isaiah provides that link for us. We also see it in Revelation.

“And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great” (Rev 19:17-18).

So Jesus’ reply is a clear reference to not only where but when one shall be taken and one shall be left. It happens when the eagles (vultures in some translations) are gathered together. They are gathered together for the great and terrible day of The Lord. As far as answering where, look at Revelation 16:16. Of course the gathering of the elect will be from everywhere.

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,” (1 Co 15:51).

A comparison of 1 Thess. 4/5 and Matt. 24, I suggest, should be enough to destroy both the "pre trib" and partial preterist viewpoints. (Both of which are modern inventions anyway.)

 

[zeke37]

Rev 13:7 KJV - And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

hi
he overcomes them by his lies...
that's the flood that comes from his "mouth"
he claims to be Jesus Christ, and he has supernatural angelic powers.
that is how he gets Christians to worship him, thus take the mark of the beast.

Rev 20:4 KJV - And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

i colour coded it for ya.
martyrs for Jesus from the past, like John the baptist.
martyrs for God, like the OT prophets
AND, those that don't take the mark and are alive and remain unto His Coming.

it just doesn't say, or imply, that the trib Christians shall be beheaded.
be-headed is used for martyrs, because of the notible John the baptist.

From these two scriptures I get that ALL Christians would be beheaded. I say this because logically speaking a Christian cannot worship the beast or have the mark of the beast.

sure we can...that is the test.
it is the "faithfull virgin" vs the "seduced harlot"
who will you be?

Also note that it says in Revelation 13 that he (Antichrist) causes ALL to receive the mark. Scripture also tells us that all who do receive the mark will end up in fire that burns forever.

all but the 144,000...
they are sealed before the 4 winds blow (trib) Rev7
and are gathered by Christ, the only ones redeemed of men/earth Rev14

(but it is the smoke of the others torment that goes up forever
not that they are tortured forever in flames.
that tells me that there is something going on in the Millennium for the seduced folks.

see Ez44...the first fruits reign and rule over the deceived)

Having said that, it is only logical to say that ALL Christians will be faced with a choice: renounce Christ and worship the beast, or be beheaded!

na...the choice will be,
either stay faithfull/in patience, and wait for the Lord to Come,
be a spiritual virgin

or be deceived and believe that Satan is Jesus, worship him instead,
becoming a seduced harlot
and have to be refined in the Millennium.

Satan already has the rest of the world...he is coming for the Christians.

* This of course does not include the 144,000 who will be miraculously saved through it all.

imo this number is not literal.

 

[zeke37]

Yet Jesus says to the faithful church in Rev. 3:10
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. ...........although the rapture escape people believe this refers to the rapture, Its very likely those who are solidly following Jesus and keeping His commands will be kept from falling into his hand just as Daniels friends were kept from the fires of the furnace, and Daniel from the lions

Very interesting point.

Rev 13:7 says more or less the same thing as Daniel 7:21 - that the Antichrist will prevail against the Christians in war.

Yet Rev 3:10 says exactly what you quoted.

There are only three possibilities regarding Rev. 3:10:

1) the "hour of trial" is not the great tribulation
2) Jesus was talking to the church in Philadelphia ONLY -which could have referred literally to the church in Philadelphia at that day and time, or prophetically speaking of another "church age" that has already passed, or...
3) The bible contradicts itself

Either way Dan, and Revelation is clear over and over again stating that the Antichrist will overpower the Christians in war, and "behead" them (except for the 144,000)

the "hour or temptation" is the trib.
to be here, and yet kept from it, is to be "sealed" and prevail during it.

how can we be kept from teptation?
we can be kept from temptation by knowing who comes first,
and not be tempted by his lies.

it is just not written that anyone is specifically be-headed in the trib

 

[HeavensWorship]

Your error here is in assuming that the word "saints" necessarily means "Christians." There was never even one "Christian" before the Lord Jesus came, but there were many "saints."

If all those who have already trusted in the Lord Jesus had already been removed from this earth, and God was again dealing with Israel as a people, He could justly use the word "saints" as a description of those whose hearts are set upon himself, even if they have not yet realized that The God they love is the Jesus whose name they despise.

Zechariah 13:6 plainly tells us that when He comes, they will be surprised to see the wounds in his hands. But Zechariah 12:11-14 just as plainly tell us that when they see him, they will ALL repent with mourning.

Here is a subject that is too large to get into here in its entirety. So I'll begin by saying that this short exposition will not do it justice. You will have to spend some time and look into it yourself.
I just pray that you don't hit the "ignore" button, figuratively speaking, and say "nah".
Be humble enough to look into it before you actually say no. I am not about to say anything that I didn't spend countless hours studying, and hearing from the Lord Himself. Here is the truth I want to present to you. It is the absolute truth:

1. Jesus did not begin in the New Testament. Jesus was around before time. Actually, He created time. Jesus existed WAY before Adam. The scriptures and the Holy Spirit teaches this clearly.
I define a "Christian" as someone who believes in, follows, adheres to, and loves Jesus will ALL their being.
That said, Christianity (as defined above) existed WAY before the New Testament. In fact Paul taught us that Abraham believed the gospel! Abraham believed in Jesus! Yes. It is true.
Jesus, Himself, said that He existed way before Abraham. In fact, He said that Abraham saw Him! But this just makes sense because the LORD appeared to Abraham many times. Who is the LORD? Jesus, of course. So then, Abraham was a true Christian. He believed the gospel (there is only ONE gospel), he saw Jesus, the LORD appeared to him, spoke to him, fellowship-ed with Him... etc...etc..
Like I said in the beginning, new baby Christians, and Christians who do not do their homework, but believe everything that was taught them will find this hard to understand. There is a LOT more to it than what I just said, but if you look into it with an honest heart you will see what I see.

2. There is no such thing as a Christian who is not a saint, and a saint who is not a Christian. Paul wrote all his letters to saints! Not to unbelievers. If you are not a saint you better get your head out of the Holy Book who is written explicitly to saints.

Do you think that the 144,000 are not Christians? That's absurd. Of course they are Christians. They are teachers, and preachers of the LORD. The LORD (Jesus) cannot save the 144,000 without them being blood-bought, and sanctified by His precious work on the cross. Anything other than this is blasphemy, and degrading to the blood of Christ.

 

[HeavensWorship]

zeke37, do you know what daniel was talking about when he said the end-time kingdom will be a "mixed" kingdom of clay and iron?

 

[josephearl]

Originally Posted by josephearl

““Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him.” (Matthew 24:22–23, NASB95)

What scripture do you have in mind leading you to say all the Christians will be martyred during the great tribulation? I think the one I have inserted above says otherwise.
​

Rev 13:7 KJV - And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.


Rev 20:4 KJV - And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

From these two scriptures I get that ALL Christians would be beheaded. I say this because logically speaking a Christian cannot worship the beast or have the mark of the beast. Also note that it says in Revelation 13 that he (Antichrist) causes ALL to receive the mark. Scripture also tells us that all who do receive the mark will end up in fire that burns forever.

Having said that, it is only logical to say that ALL Christians will be faced with a choice: renounce Christ and worship the beast, or be beheaded!

* This of course does not include the 144,000 who will be miraculously saved through it all.

Scripture has used the word "whole" in cases where it plain to all that the meaning could not have been literally the whole earth. It is possible that the use of the word all in these cases could be much the same. I recall seeing some passages that say there will be those who resist and fight against the AC, the word 'all' could then be seen as used here in a localized sense as in that Middle-eastern geographical region. I do not believe that every nation is going to bow down to the AC however I am dogmatic on the issue just aware of its possibility...

 

[HeavensWorship]

Scripture has used the word "whole" in cases where it plain to all that the meaning could not have been literally the whole earth. It is possible that the use of the word all in these cases could be much the same. I recall seeing some passages that say there will be those who resist and fight against the AC, the word 'all' could then be seen as used here in a localized sense as in that Middle-eastern geographical region. I do not believe that every nation is going to bow down to the AC however I am dogmatic on the issue just aware of its possibility...

Two questions:

1. Could you give me some examples where the Bible uses the word whole, where it is very clear it doesn't mean whole in a literal sense?

2. Do you not think it is possible, with the ever increasing threat of global problems such as the "border blurring" Internet transgressing laws in every nation, the very real threat of terrorism that would make 9/11 look like a walk in the park (nuclear), and the pandemic of ID theft that the world will one day be pressured into a global government? Borders are disappearing more and more as every minute passes. Don't you think it is very possible that with SEVERAL more successful major terrorist attacks that the world will become much more globalized for security? I'm talking about 9/11 scale attack and greater. We all know how much 9/11 changed the world! Think about many attacks of exponential proportions. There will be a call not only national security, but personal security.
Don't think it can't happen. Not 19, like 9/11, but thousands are being trained right now to attack developed nations in ways that you can't even imagine.... forcing a global economy, a global legal system (sharia law), and a global religion. It is not possible?