RCC teaching on Salvation

[chevyontheriver]

RCSproul has an interesting little book on Roman Catholicism right now. You may be interested in that. Blessings.

Just like I would not post Catholic viewpoints against Baptist beliefs in a Baptist forum, you might consider how you might act as a guest in this forum. If you want to post Baptist viewpoints against Catholic beliefs you have all sorts of other fora to do so. Knock yourself out. This is a place where a Baptist can come and ask a question and expect to get a Catholic perspective. If a Baptist wants a Baptist perspective, there is the Baptist Forum. If they want a Seventh Day Adventist perspective they have a forum or two for that. Get it?

Now if you want to learn a bit about Catholic teaching, you can do so. We'll help. If you don't want to learn, but maybe argue against Catholic teaching, you should do that elsewhere.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I'm sure I will be corrected if I'm inaccurate, but my understanding is that RCC believes people are "born again" when baptized.

Let's start correcting then by stating that 'RCC' is not all that accurate. There are Catholics right here in this forum who are fully Catholic but in no way Roman. There are multiple rites:

• Latin liturgical tradition:
  • Latin Church
• Alexandrian liturgical tradition:
  • Coptic Catholic Church
  • Ethiopian Catholic Church
  • Eritrean Catholic Church
• Antiochian liturgical tradition:
  • Maronite Church
  • Syrian Catholic Church
  • Syro-Malankara Catholic Church
• Armenian liturgical tradition:
  • Armenian Catholic Church
• Chaldean or East Syrian liturgical tradition:
  • Chaldean Catholic Church
  • Syro-Malabar Catholic Church
• Byzantine liturgical tradition:
  • Albanian Greek Catholic Church
  • Belarusian Greek Catholic Church
  • Bulgarian Greek Catholic Church
  • Byzantine Catholic Church of Croatia and Serbia
  • Greek Byzantine Catholic Church
  • Hungarian Greek Catholic Church
  • Italo-Albanian Catholic Church
  • Macedonian Greek Catholic Church
  • Melkite Greek Catholic Church
  • Romanian Church United with Rome, Greek-Catholic
  • Russian Greek Catholic Church
  • Ruthenian Catholic Church
  • Slovak Greek Catholic Church
  • Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church

We're all Catholic. Not all of us belong to the Latin Rite. So 'RCC' is inaccurate. You can call us 'Catholic' and you can refer to the 'Catholic Church'. Unless it is about something specifically regarding the Latin Rite.

As you should know from Scripture, specifically John 3, baptism is when one is born again. That's what Catholics and the Orthodox and even some Protestants believe. And it's what Jesus tried to teach Nicodemus. Nicodemus was rather dense but eventually got it.

As you know, to be be born again is a choice that we all have to make for ourselves. RCC baptize babies. Baptists show it is a matter of obedience to Christ to be baptized.

See above.

Are you considering leaving the Baptists?

Scared he might be? He says he wants to explore different beliefs on the way to becoming a Baptist minister. But many people have been diverted from that goal by a fair look at Catholic teaching. They end up Catholic. It's risky him doing what he's doing. He might actually look at the issue you raised, about the link between baptism and being born again. He might look at what Bible really says about it. He might look at what the Church Fathers said about it. He might look at what some notable Catholic theologians have said about it, like Joseph Ratzinger, former pope Benedict. He might discover the Baptists got it backwards. Sure Baptists delink baptism from being born again. But they are linked. What's he going to do when that fact keeps on bugging him? How will he obey Jesus Christ. We obey him by presenting our children for baptism. "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven."

 

[JacquelineDeane55]

I apologize. I'm Baptist too (I have been my whole life) and I know very little about the Catholic church. I have never even stepped foot in one. My parents believe that the Catholic church endorses a lot of heresy (like praying to Mary and the Saints) and thus they would never let me visit one. I was forbidden. Sometimes they even talk bad about the Pope (like there are sexual sins prevalent in the Catholic church, amongst the Popes, sometimes). I'm just glad that no Catholic can hear them, otherwise they'd get very mad at my parents for the kind of things they say about the Pope. They don't believe in him. They think that the Pope is an agent of Satan just like much of the rest of this godless world.

Thus in the past I was forbidden on interacting with the Popes.

You know how, in the past, some of the Popes would molest young children? That is one of the big issues my parents have with the Popes. I don't think they trust them at all.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I apologize. I'm Baptist too (I have been my whole life) and I know very little about the Catholic church. I have never even stepped foot in one. My parents believe that the Catholic church endorses a lot of heresy (like praying to Mary and the Saints) and thus they would never let me visit one. I was forbidden. Sometime they even talk bad about the Pope. I'm just glad that no Catholic can hear them, otherwise they'd get very mad at my parents for the kind of things they say about the Pope.

Wow. Your parents 'protected' you well from any Catholic 'contamination'. No wonder we Christians continue to be divided.

Consider that a big chunk of what you have been taught about Catholics, the Catholic Church, and Catholic teaching is probably flat out wrong. Archbishop Fulton Sheen said once
“There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”

 

[Michie]

Oh brother...

 

[Mrs.PGL]

Let's start correcting then by stating that 'RCC' is not all that accurate. There are Catholics right here in this forum who are fully Catholic but in no way Roman. There are multiple rites:

• Latin liturgical tradition:
  • Latin Church
• Alexandrian liturgical tradition:
  • Coptic Catholic Church
  • Ethiopian Catholic Church
  • Eritrean Catholic Church
• Antiochian liturgical tradition:
  • Maronite Church
  • Syrian Catholic Church
  • Syro-Malankara Catholic Church
• Armenian liturgical tradition:
  • Armenian Catholic Church
• Chaldean or East Syrian liturgical tradition:
  • Chaldean Catholic Church
  • Syro-Malabar Catholic Church
• Byzantine liturgical tradition:
  • Albanian Greek Catholic Church
  • Belarusian Greek Catholic Church
  • Bulgarian Greek Catholic Church
  • Byzantine Catholic Church of Croatia and Serbia
  • Greek Byzantine Catholic Church
  • Hungarian Greek Catholic Church
  • Italo-Albanian Catholic Church
  • Macedonian Greek Catholic Church
  • Melkite Greek Catholic Church
  • Romanian Church United with Rome, Greek-Catholic
  • Russian Greek Catholic Church
  • Ruthenian Catholic Church
  • Slovak Greek Catholic Church
  • Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church

We're all Catholic. Not all of us belong to the Latin Rite. So 'RCC' is inaccurate. You can call us 'Catholic' and you can refer to the 'Catholic Church'. Unless it is about something specifically regarding the Latin Rite.

As you should know from Scripture, specifically John 3, baptism is when one is born again. That's what Catholics and the Orthodox and even some Protestants believe. And it's what Jesus tried to teach Nicodemus. Nicodemus was rather dense but eventually got it.


See above.

Scared he might be? He says he wants to explore different beliefs on the way to becoming a Baptist minister. But many people have been diverted from that goal by a fair look at Catholic teaching. They end up Catholic. It's risky him doing what he's doing. He might actually look at the issue you raised, about the link between baptism and being born again. He might look at what Bible really says about it. He might look at what the Church Fathers said about it. He might look at what some notable Catholic theologians have said about it, like Joseph Ratzinger, former pope Benedict. He might discover the Baptists got it backwards. Sure Baptists delink baptism from being born again. But they are linked. What's he going to do when that fact keeps on bugging him? How will he obey Jesus Christ. We obey him by presenting our children for baptism. "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven."

Well, it seems I have offended you - as was not my intent. I saw a need in a Christian brother and filled it. I'm sorry you have difficulty with that. Blessings

 

[Rhamiel]

We should be charitable to guests

I will answer your questions after work

 

[Gnarwhal]

Unless I'm missing something, I don't think anyone was being uncharitable. We shouldn't have to be PC when it comes to non-Catholics misrepresenting the Truth of the Church. Much less on our turf (OBOB). They've been indoctrinated with the usual anti-Catholic propaganda, and when they're offered correction here they act offended and melodramatic? That's not okay.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Well, it seems I have offended you - as was not my intent. I saw a need in a Christian brother and filled it. I'm sorry you have difficulty with that. Blessings

No. You haven't offended me. You expected some corrections and I provided some corrections. If you can handle that, we're fine.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

Oh brother...

Where art thou?

Sorry, feeling cinematic.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Oh brother...

Catch you all next week.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

Catch you all next week.

Cash me outside, howbowdah?

I don't even know.

Hi Chevy.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

I have Catholic contamination. Do I need a vaccine?

 

[Michie]

Where you going??!

 

[Michie]

Where you going??!

 

[chevyontheriver]

Where you going??!

Staycation. Work. Walks. Read. Stuff. 3D stuff that is.

 

[Michie]

Refuel! I don't blame you.

 

[Michie]

Refuel! I don't blame you.

 

[tz620q]

I apologize. I'm Baptist too (I have been my whole life) and I know very little about the Catholic church. I have never even stepped foot in one. My parents believe that the Catholic church endorses a lot of heresy (like praying to Mary and the Saints) and thus they would never let me visit one. I was forbidden. Sometimes they even talk bad about the Pope (like there are sexual sins prevalent in the Catholic church, amongst the Popes, sometimes). I'm just glad that no Catholic can hear them, otherwise they'd get very mad at my parents for the kind of things they say about the Pope. They don't believe in him. They think that the Pope is an agent of Satan just like much of the rest of this godless world.

Thus in the past I was forbidden on interacting with the Popes.

You know how, in the past, some of the Popes would molest young children? That is one of the big issues my parents have with the Popes. I don't think they trust them at all.

Dear one, I learned a long time ago that the first rule of apologetics is to learn about a group from the group itself. We are all defined by our beliefs; not by what others believe about us.

 

[Meowzltov]

That's an excellent question. I'll let actual Catholics explain the theology in more clarity and detail.

But I hope you'll be surprised and moved by the answers. I also came to Christ in a Baptist church, and am looking into Catholic and Orthodox understandings of what it means to be fully a Christian.

Before I start, let me say that a lot of misunderstanding happens because Protestants and Catholics use the same words but mean different things. Since I used to be Protestand and am now Catholic, I think I will be good for translating back and forth between "Protestantese" and "Catholicese."

FIRST lets talk about what Baptists call getting saved, which is what Catholics call initial salvation. This is the moment when you FIRST become a Christian.

• Catholicism teaches that GRACE precedes everything and permeates everything. The very fact that we can come to repentance is by the grace of God. God first reaches out to us. We then choose to take that outstretched hand, but again, we only have the strength to do so because of grace. Grace is free and undeserve. That's right. Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) 1996.
• When it comes to "getting saved" aka "initial salvation" we respond to that grace with baptism and a working faith. By working faith we mean a faith that will come to produce good works. We do not merit initial salvation (CCC 2010).

But it doesn't stop there and here is where there are massive misunderstandings between Protestants and Catholics over the words Salvation and Justification. For Protestants, Salvation and Justification ONLY refer to that first moment, that "getting saved" that "initial justification. Not so for Catholics. For Catholics, "getting saved" is a lifelong process. Justification is the Christian Walk. Salvation is a journey. Initial Justification is just the first step of that journey.

This is what Protestants (and Catholics) call Sanctification. Thus, when a Catholic says salvation, the Protestant needs to ask himself if the Catholic means getting saved or getting sanctified. Remember also that Catholics don't believe in OSAS, so ongoing salvation is very serious.

So SECOND, let's talk about the Catholic Churches teaching for the REST of Salvation (Sanctification):

• Grace continues to be at the heart of Salvation. Nothing that happens in one's walk as a Christian can happen apart from grace.
• Just as baptism was included as part of Initial Justification, so Confession and Eucharist are part of ongoing Justification. The Sacraments are not considered our works, but works of God.
• Faith continues to apply, but it must be a working faith.
• This is where obedience is a must. A Christian must abstain from sin. Good works are necessary. In other words merit comes into play -- but again, this merit is only possible via grace just as faith is only possible via grace.
• Other things we can do also help to deepen our relationship with Christ: constant prayer, the reading of Scripture, meditation upon his will and ways.
• This period also means accepting suffering as a way God disciplines us, and as a way of coming closer to the cross.