RCC Catechism is full compilation of the full Word of God

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Hi David
Sorry, I didn't take notice of your question nine days ago.
The building blocks of nature are the basic units of creation or nature which contain the word of God. They carry in them a lot of information about the Divinity of God the Holy Trinity and their Mission Activity coded into them. There are five of them carrying their Trinitarian elements like the Holy Trinity.. They are the Atom as the building block of nonliving things, the DNA as the building block of living things, the solar system as the building block of the galaxy, the family unit as the building block of society and the human spirit as a cell of the spiritual sphere. We no longer use reason only to prove the existence of God and Divine operations. Rather, this time, we use pure scientific facts under Chem, Bio, Phys, Math, etc. These building blocks mentioned are embedded with the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity and used in constructing them as God's signature of creation.
I already delivered a comprehensive list of posts for continuos 20 days, right from the last Christmas day during my one month vacation. I finished that particular lecture on Chemistry of the Atom Table this Jan the 13th, using it to teach about the life of the Holy Trinity. You can check it here under Discussions and Debated > Atheistic Evolution.
We dissected the Atom, got the summary as the Atom table with the Neutron, Proton and Electron to transpose God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit respectively in the much we know about them. This pure Science about God is called Trinitarian Science. So, you can learn about it. An honest hardened atheist will seek God if you can explain it to him. Many of them are honest people; only that they want you to use Science to convince them about the existence of God.
Take care.
 
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The Liturgist

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John Hus published the Bible in English and they burned him at the stake because of it. Maybe your version of church history doesn't include that.

You are conflating two people and two events:

Jan Hus was a Czech martyr who was in fact burned at the stake for organizing the schismatic church on the basis of Eastern Orthodox lines (and thus we venerate him, and also St. Jerome of Prague, as martyrs), some of whose descendants include the Mora. St. Jan Hus did not as far as I am aware issue a Bible, and indeed the more mild faction of the Bohemian reform he is most associated with, the Utraquists, mainly wanted the reintroduction of communion in both kinds at mass. The full program of reform also included the reintroduction of a liturgy in Church Slavonic or another liturgy the Czechs could under stand, which ironically the Catholic Church had been doing for centuries in Dalmatia (basically modern Croatia and Herzegovina) with the Galgolithic Mass, which was in Galgolithic, basically an accent of Church Slavonic written in a Gothic text rather than the Cyrillic alphabet.

John Wycliffe on the other hand did translate and distribute a Bible in Middle English which is barely intelligible today, which was controversial, but he died of natural causes, however, his remains (or perhaps those of a neighbor, it is not sure if a correct identification) were desecrated some years after his death, with official sanction, which is appalling and horrific, but it is not the case that he was burned at the stake.

Forgive me but I feel obliged to insist upon a certain historical and factual accuracy and when people literally conflate two entirely separate individuals to maintain a narrative I find this to be troubling, even if the conflation is itself accidental.
 
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The Liturgist

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Actually, it was John Wycliffe. Jan Hus was much earlier and lived in Moravia. He stirred the pot with the Catholic heirarchy as a pre-reformer and was also burned at the state. Peter Waldo was even earlier. He and his followers were heavily persecuted, but the Waldensians have survived to this day - waldensians - Bing

Really the two men (Hus and Wycliffe) were nearly contemporaries but I am not aware of any communication between them, since the Czech speaking region of the Austrian Empire and England represented opposite extremities of the Latin Christian world, separated as tney were by the Channel and many mountains and valleys. Even today, a land journey from London to Prague will cross at a minimum the intermediate borders of France and Germany.
 
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That was in the 1970's, so it is quite possible that the laws could easily have changed since then.

Still openly practicing Christianity in public outside of an embassy or a company town occupied by expat oil industry workers or other foreigners is a good way to get beheaded.
 
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You are conflating two people and two events:

Jan Hus was a Czech martyr who was in fact burned at the stake for organizing the schismatic church on the basis of Eastern Orthodox lines (and thus we venerate him, and also St. Jerome of Prague, as martyrs), some of whose descendants include the Mora. St. Jan Hus did not as far as I am aware issue a Bible, and indeed the more mild faction of the Bohemian reform he is most associated with, the Utraquists, mainly wanted the reintroduction of communion in both kinds at mass. The full program of reform also included the reintroduction of a liturgy in Church Slavonic or another liturgy the Czechs could under stand, which ironically the Catholic Church had been doing for centuries in Dalmatia (basically modern Croatia and Herzegovina) with the Galgolithic Mass, which was in Galgolithic, basically an accent of Church Slavonic written in a Gothic text rather than the Cyrillic alphabet.

John Wycliffe on the other hand did translate and distribute a Bible in Middle English which is barely intelligible today, which was controversial, but he died of natural causes, however, his remains (or perhaps those of a neighbor, it is not sure if a correct identification) were desecrated some years after his death, with official sanction, which is appalling and horrific, but it is not the case that he was burned at the stake.

Forgive me but I feel obliged to insist upon a certain historical and factual accuracy and when people literally conflate two entirely separate individuals to maintain a narrative I find this to be troubling, even if the conflation is itself accidental.
The fact is that I don't recognise the authority of a church that is riddled with immorality, adultery, pedophilia and homosexuality.
 
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The fact is that I don't recognise the authority of a church that is riddled with immorality, adultery, pedophilia and homosexuality.

This does not justify misrepresenting the history of such a church, and also I would note such a remark is likely highly insensitive to traditionalist Catholics such as my friend @chevyontheriver who are deeply distressed by the actions of Pope Francis.

I would also lament that the mainline Protestant denominations, in the US and certain other countries, including Anglicans, Lutherans and various churches of Presbyterian heritage, have become much more open in their embrace of the remarriage of adulterers, and homosexuality, whereas in the Roman Catholic Church these are still officially regarded as sinful acts.
 
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Still openly practicing Christianity in public outside of an embassy or a company town occupied by expat oil industry workers or other foreigners is a good way to get beheaded.
That would be true for a native, but not true for a foreigner. Because Saudi Arabia maintains close economic relationships with foreign countries they are not in the practice of beheading foreigners for any reason. They simply label them as persona non grata and then deport them.

In Islam the preferred method of execution of those who renounce Islam, for whatever reason, is for the family to execute the individual, frequently by stoning and sometimes by other methods. It is believed that these heretics have gone mad and have completely lost their senses such that it is an honor to put them out of their misery.
 
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That would be true for a native, but not true for a foreigner. Because Saudi Arabia maintains close economic relationships with foreign countries they are not in the practice of beheading foreigners for any reason. They simply label them as persona non grata and send deport them.

In Islam the preferred method of execution of those who renounce Islam, for whatever reason, is for the family to execute the individual, frequently by stoning and sometimes by other methods. It is believed that these heretics have gone mad and have completely lost their senses such that it is an honor to put them out of their misery.

Indeed so.
 
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This does not justify misrepresenting the history of such a church, and also I would note such a remark is likely highly insensitive to traditionalist Catholics such as my friend @chevyontheriver who are deeply distressed by the actions of Pope Francis.

I would also lament that the mainline Protestant denominations, in the US and certain other countries, including Anglicans, Lutherans and various churches of Presbyterian heritage, have become much more open in their embrace of the remarriage of adulterers, and homosexuality, whereas in the Roman Catholic Church these are still officially regarded as sinful acts.
This is the actual reason why any church should assert their own authority over Christ Himself. It is a question of whether churches actually follow the Jesus Christ of the Bible, or another Jesus made up out of imagination and church tradition. This goes for Protestant as well as Catholic churches.

In my opinion, none of the mainline churches, Catholic, Evangelical, Pentecostal, or Charismatic, are anything like the 1st Century Early Church. They all have serious faults, and are still affected by the paganism introduced into the 4th Century church by Constantine - some more than others. Modern studies in the Evangelical churches show that the occult is mixing itself with many of the involvements of the churches with New Age liberalism, "Christian" psychology based on the atheistic theories of Freud and Jung, Positive Confession coming out of the Christian Science background of E W Kenyon, and the occult background of Norman Vincent Peale. So it is not just the Catholic Church, but any church that tries to assert its own authority that in my opinion is denying Christ by doing so.

So yes. You can quite rightly point to the Protestant Evangelical churches to being just the same. All that shows is none of these churches have any right to assert their own authority on its members.
 
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This is the actual reason why any church should assert their own authority over Christ Himself. It is a question of whether churches actually follow the Jesus Christ of the Bible, or another Jesus made up out of imagination and church tradition. This goes for Protestant as well as Catholic churches.

In my opinion, none of the mainline churches, Catholic, Evangelical, Pentecostal, or Charismatic, are anything like the 1st Century Early Church. They all have serious faults, and are still affected by the paganism introduced into the 4th Century church by Constantine - some more than others. Modern studies in the Evangelical churches show that the occult is mixing itself with many of the involvements of the churches with New Age liberalism, "Christian" psychology based on the atheistic theories of Freud and Jung, Positive Confession coming out of the Christian Science background of E W Kenyon, and the occult background of Norman Vincent Peale. So it is not just the Catholic Church, but any church that tries to assert its own authority that in my opinion is denying Christ by doing so.

So yes. You can quite rightly point to the Protestant Evangelical churches to being just the same. All that shows is none of these churches have any right to assert their own authority on its members.
I do find it curious (to put it mildly) when any denomination claims to be the one, unchanging church established by Jesus Christ. All have changed over time, as you have correctly observed and one can trace the various changes through the historical record.

I also find it odd that, when confronted with the changes within a denomination, a wide variety of rationales have been developed to excuse the changes that have taken place in a (supposedly) unchanging church.
 
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This is the actual reason why any church should assert their own authority over Christ Himself. It is a question of whether churches actually follow the Jesus Christ of the Bible, or another Jesus made up out of imagination and church tradition. This goes for Protestant as well as Catholic churches.

In my opinion, none of the mainline churches, Catholic, Evangelical, Pentecostal, or Charismatic, are anything like the 1st Century Early Church. They all have serious faults, and are still affected by the paganism introduced into the 4th Century church by Constantine - some more than others. Modern studies in the Evangelical churches show that the occult is mixing itself with many of the involvements of the churches with New Age liberalism, "Christian" psychology based on the atheistic theories of Freud and Jung, Positive Confession coming out of the Christian Science background of E W Kenyon, and the occult background of Norman Vincent Peale. So it is not just the Catholic Church, but any church that tries to assert its own authority that in my opinion is denying Christ by doing so.

So yes. You can quite rightly point to the Protestant Evangelical churches to being just the same. All that shows is none of these churches have any right to assert their own authority on its members.


I don’t question your intent, or your sense of morality; my objection is to your posts which are extremely inaccurate concerning Church history. Criticize churches for their legitimate faults, but not on the basis of urban legends.

Take Emperor Constantine, for example. You claim, as do many members of Restorationist denominations who believe in a “Great Apoastasy” having occurred immediately after the Apostles, a claim unsupported by historical evidence but maintained as something of an article of faith, that the Emperor introduced paganism into the Christian church. But an analysis of the actual facts proves this to be incorrect. What Constantine actually did is this:

In 314 AD, he issued the Edict of Milan, which legalized Christianity in the Roman Empire. In 325, when Arius, an heretical priest in the ancient Church of Alexandria, whose Patriarch, St. Alexander of Alexandria, had been tortured under the Diocletian persecution which Emperor Constantine stopped, refused to desist from teaching the false doctrine that bears his name, which is that Jesus Christ is not God incarnate, but was rather created by God the Father, as opposed to being begotten, and there was a time when He was not. This is abject heresy, and it was causing strife in the Church, and so Emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea, which upheld the defrocking and excommunication of Arius imposed by the Church of Alexandria, which was the correct thing to do, and which also agreed that Pascha, the Feast of the Resurrection, should be celebrated on the first Sunday following the vernal equinox. It further enacted twenty canons, or guidelines, for church operations. The first canon prohibits any man who has castrated himself from being ordained to clergy, for such a man is a self-murderer. The 20th canon, which most churches ignore, including the Roman Catholic Church, prohibits kneeling on Sundays or during the period from Pascha through Pentecost Sunday, known as the Pentecost or in English as Eastertide (in English Pentecost is also called Whitsunday; there is no actual evidence suggesting these names have pagan connotations, but even if they do, it is irrelevant, since the Council of Nicaea did not create or enforce them, and Greek was the language spoken at the aforesaid council). Lastly, the council adopted a Creed, which in the revised form adopted at the Council of Constantinople in 381 AD, became the basis of normative Christianity and is the integral part of the Christian Forums Statement of Faith, which is located here: CF Statement of Faith

However the Arians were dissatisfied with this ruling, to put it mildly. An Arian bishop, Eusebius of Nicomedia, began persecuting Christians starting with St. Athanasius, the successor to Alexander of Alexandria, who was also the bishop who presented the case against Athanasius at Nicaea, who he had exiled to Trier for two years under the false allegation that Athanasius had murdered a layman (despite the layman still being alive; eventually Athanasius was allowed to return, although he would be exiled again after Emperor Constantine’s heir, who was moved by Eusebius baptizing his father before his death, became an Arian and persecuted Christians who believed in the deity of Christ throughout his reign.

Additionally, Constantine financed an effort conducted by his mother, St. Helena, to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, whose old name was destroyed (this city had been left largely in ruins following the failed Bar Kochba revolt in 130 AD, with all the Jews and most likely any remaining Christians forced out, in 130 AD, and only gradually allowed to return, so that the center of Christianity in the Holy Land until the rebuilding of Jerusalem in the 4th century and the construction of churches on what were, with good reason, believed to be its holy places, was Caesarea. Indeed the Romans had even renamed Jerusalem to Aeolia Capitolina, signifying its capital of the former provinces of Judea and Galilee, which had been renamed Syria Palestina. Emperor Constantine restored the name Jerusalem and financed the efforts by his mother, who no doubt influenced his conversion as much as the vision he had before moving against his rival contenders for the Imperial throne on the basis of Christianity, to rebuild the ruined city.

So that is what Emperor Constantine did. And what I said can be verified by reading any impartial history of the early church. Basically, the only books which allege Pagan-influenced meddling in the Church by Constantine are works that include the writings of Ellen G White, which Seventh Day Adventists very controversially claim to be inspired prophecy, and similar writings by related movements such as Landmark Baptists and indeed the Jehovah’s Witnesses who were invested in the idea of a Great Apostasy in the Early Church.

Now, if you want to find an example of a secular ruler who had a really destructive influence on Western Christianity, who caused changes that would ultimately lead to the East-West schism in 1054, Charlemagne is a much more valid example.

This all matters because the false narrative against Constantine when promoted by Christians has the effect of inadvertently making the job of Jehovah’s Witnesses and other neo-Arian cults that much easier, since if Constantine is incorrectly believed to have introduced pagan elements, then this makes all the good that he did before his Arianized son Constantius II, who was genuinely horrible for the Christian Church, came along, wrongfully suspected of heresy, when in fact the Council of Nicaea actually worked against heresy.

Also, I would note that the Council of Nicaea enacted two canons, canons 6 and 7 which directly contradict the Roman doctrine of Papal supremacy, by stating that the churches of Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem, have the same rights and privileges of the Church in Rome. So there is absolutely no reason for Protestants with traditional moral values to oppose this council, since it made correct rulings concerning Pascha, not ordaining men who have castrated themselves either by their own hand or by having a doctor do it (the canon contains a clear exception for surgeries performed of medical assistance or people who were involuntarily castrated against their will), which is important because this canon disqualifies trans-sexual persons from the ministry, who should not be ordained under any circumstances.

And nothing that Constantine did had the effect of contributing to the eventual unpleasant situation in the Western Church with Roman Catholicism which led to the Reformation, which the Roman church could have prevented had it even enacted the reforms it later made at the Council of Trent, not even the reforms made at Vatican II, since the Council of Trent was where the sale of indulgences was officially prohibited, and it had been that which drove Martin Luther over the edge, and I cannot criticize him for this, (not the least because of the demonstrable Orthodoxy of some of my Lutheran friends on the forum, such as the stalwart @MarkRohfrietsch ) since before Martin Luther, nearly every Pope for more than a century had been seriously problematic, including Alexander VI of the notorious Borgias, and the militant Julius II. By the way, St. Julius was a martyr in the early church, although the Pope bearing his name acted in a manner more evocative of Gaius Julius Caesar, who of course lived before Christians and never personally persecuted them, but who is nonetheless not an ideal model for a Christian bishop.

I am curious why you regard yourself as a Presbyterian despite your investment in the ahistorical narrative of the Great Apostasy, since most Presbyterians and Calvinist Christians known to me, such as my friend @bbbbbbb , strive for an accurate history of the early church, since John Calvin regarded this as important and it played an important role in his Institutes, which were very thoughtful concerning ecclesiastical history. I believe an accurate knowledge of ecclesiastical history is extremely important, because it allows us to trace, for example, when the Roman church actually started having the problems that contributed to its decline and the need for the Reformation. It also helps us to identify which churches most closely resemble the Apostolic faith, since contrary to your assertion, some are much closer than others, and we know this because of the historical literature of the first and second and third century churches and the connection with that, the fourth century and so on. One can literally evaluate every denomination and make a reasonable assessment of how apostolic they are, or are not, by comparing them to what is described in these texts and in Scripture.
 
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I don’t question your intent, or your sense of morality; my objection is to your posts which are extremely inaccurate concerning Church history. Criticize churches for their legitimate faults, but not on the basis of urban legends.

Take Emperor Constantine, for example. You claim, as do many members of Restorationist denominations who believe in a “Great Apoastasy” having occurred immediately after the Apostles, a claim unsupported by historical evidence but maintained as something of an article of faith, that the Emperor introduced paganism into the Christian church. But an analysis of the actual facts proves this to be incorrect. What Constantine actually did is this:

In 314 AD, he issued the Edict of Milan, which legalized Christianity in the Roman Empire. In 325, when Arius, an heretical priest in the ancient Church of Alexandria, whose Patriarch, St. Alexander of Alexandria, had been tortured under the Diocletian persecution which Emperor Constantine stopped, refused to desist from teaching the false doctrine that bears his name, which is that Jesus Christ is not God incarnate, but was rather created by God the Father, as opposed to being begotten, and there was a time when He was not. This is abject heresy, and it was causing strife in the Church, and so Emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea, which upheld the defrocking and excommunication of Arius imposed by the Church of Alexandria, which was the correct thing to do, and which also agreed that Pascha, the Feast of the Resurrection, should be celebrated on the first Sunday following the vernal equinox. It further enacted twenty canons, or guidelines, for church operations. The first canon prohibits any man who has castrated himself from being ordained to clergy, for such a man is a self-murderer. The 20th canon, which most churches ignore, including the Roman Catholic Church, prohibits kneeling on Sundays or during the period from Pascha through Pentecost Sunday, known as the Pentecost or in English as Eastertide (in English Pentecost is also called Whitsunday; there is no actual evidence suggesting these names have pagan connotations, but even if they do, it is irrelevant, since the Council of Nicaea did not create or enforce them, and Greek was the language spoken at the aforesaid council). Lastly, the council adopted a Creed, which in the revised form adopted at the Council of Constantinople in 381 AD, became the basis of normative Christianity and is the integral part of the Christian Forums Statement of Faith, which is located here: CF Statement of Faith

However the Arians were dissatisfied with this ruling, to put it mildly. An Arian bishop, Eusebius of Nicomedia, began persecuting Christians starting with St. Athanasius, the successor to Alexander of Alexandria, who was also the bishop who presented the case against Athanasius at Nicaea, who he had exiled to Trier for two years under the false allegation that Athanasius had murdered a layman (despite the layman still being alive; eventually Athanasius was allowed to return, although he would be exiled again after Emperor Constantine’s heir, who was moved by Eusebius baptizing his father before his death, became an Arian and persecuted Christians who believed in the deity of Christ throughout his reign.

Additionally, Constantine financed an effort conducted by his mother, St. Helena, to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, whose old name was destroyed (this city had been left largely in ruins following the failed Bar Kochba revolt in 130 AD, with all the Jews and most likely any remaining Christians forced out, in 130 AD, and only gradually allowed to return, so that the center of Christianity in the Holy Land until the rebuilding of Jerusalem in the 4th century and the construction of churches on what were, with good reason, believed to be its holy places, was Caesarea. Indeed the Romans had even renamed Jerusalem to Aeolia Capitolina, signifying its capital of the former provinces of Judea and Galilee, which had been renamed Syria Palestina. Emperor Constantine restored the name Jerusalem and financed the efforts by his mother, who no doubt influenced his conversion as much as the vision he had before moving against his rival contenders for the Imperial throne on the basis of Christianity, to rebuild the ruined city.

So that is what Emperor Constantine did. And what I said can be verified by reading any impartial history of the early church. Basically, the only books which allege Pagan-influenced meddling in the Church by Constantine are works that include the writings of Ellen G White, which Seventh Day Adventists very controversially claim to be inspired prophecy, and similar writings by related movements such as Landmark Baptists and indeed the Jehovah’s Witnesses who were invested in the idea of a Great Apostasy in the Early Church.

Now, if you want to find an example of a secular ruler who had a really destructive influence on Western Christianity, who caused changes that would ultimately lead to the East-West schism in 1054, Charlemagne is a much more valid example.

This all matters because the false narrative against Constantine when promoted by Christians has the effect of inadvertently making the job of Jehovah’s Witnesses and other neo-Arian cults that much easier, since if Constantine is incorrectly believed to have introduced pagan elements, then this makes all the good that he did before his Arianized son Constantius II, who was genuinely horrible for the Christian Church, came along, wrongfully suspected of heresy, when in fact the Council of Nicaea actually worked against heresy.

Also, I would note that the Council of Nicaea enacted two canons, canons 6 and 7 which directly contradict the Roman doctrine of Papal supremacy, by stating that the churches of Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem, have the same rights and privileges of the Church in Rome. So there is absolutely no reason for Protestants with traditional moral values to oppose this council, since it made correct rulings concerning Pascha, not ordaining men who have castrated themselves either by their own hand or by having a doctor do it (the canon contains a clear exception for surgeries performed of medical assistance or people who were involuntarily castrated against their will), which is important because this canon disqualifies trans-sexual persons from the ministry, who should not be ordained under any circumstances.

And nothing that Constantine did had the effect of contributing to the eventual unpleasant situation in the Western Church with Roman Catholicism which led to the Reformation, which the Roman church could have prevented had it even enacted the reforms it later made at the Council of Trent, not even the reforms made at Vatican II, since the Council of Trent was where the sale of indulgences was officially prohibited, and it had been that which drove Martin Luther over the edge, and I cannot criticize him for this, (not the least because of the demonstrable Orthodoxy of some of my Lutheran friends on the forum, such as the stalwart @MarkRohfrietsch ) since before Martin Luther, nearly every Pope for more than a century had been seriously problematic, including Alexander VI of the notorious Borgias, and the militant Julius II. By the way, St. Julius was a martyr in the early church, although the Pope bearing his name acted in a manner more evocative of Gaius Julius Caesar, who of course lived before Christians and never personally persecuted them, but who is nonetheless not an ideal model for a Christian bishop.

I am curious why you regard yourself as a Presbyterian despite your investment in the ahistorical narrative of the Great Apostasy, since most Presbyterians and Calvinist Christians known to me, such as my friend @bbbbbbb , strive for an accurate history of the early church, since John Calvin regarded this as important and it played an important role in his Institutes, which were very thoughtful concerning ecclesiastical history. I believe an accurate knowledge of ecclesiastical history is extremely important, because it allows us to trace, for example, when the Roman church actually started having the problems that contributed to its decline and the need for the Reformation. It also helps us to identify which churches most closely resemble the Apostolic faith, since contrary to your assertion, some are much closer than others, and we know this because of the historical literature of the first and second and third century churches and the connection with that, the fourth century and so on. One can literally evaluate every denomination and make a reasonable assessment of how apostolic they are, or are not, by comparing them to what is described in these texts and in Scripture.
There is a variation of authors of Church History. It depends on how each authority writes it from his theological perspective. What this means is that Catholic, Protestant, Pentecostal authors will emphasize their theology and leave out parts that don't support their view. A secular author without any theological bias at all will write from a totally different perspective, not favouring one church denomination over another. While a cessationist author will leave out all the miracles from his history, a secular author will include them. While a Catholic author will favour the strong points of the Catholic church, a Protestant author will favour the good points of Protestantism and highlight the faults of the Catholic church. This is basic human nature.

We are never going to agree on all this, but there is a lot to learn in discussions like these.
 
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There is a variation of authors of Church History. It depends on how each authority writes it from his theological perspective. What this means is that Catholic, Protestant, Pentecostal authors will emphasize their theology and leave out parts that don't support their view. A secular author without any theological bias at all will write from a totally different perspective, not favouring one church denomination over another. While a cessationist author will leave out all the miracles from his history, a secular author will include them. While a Catholic author will favour the strong points of the Catholic church, a Protestant author will favour the good points of Protestantism and highlight the faults of the Catholic church. This is basic human nature.

This cynical interpretation would be justified were it not for the fact that most churches agree on ecclesiastical history, and instead rely on theological arguments to justify their actions. For example, Roman Catholics never deny that Canons VI and VII of Nicaea exist, and most will concede Charlemagne meddled where he ought not to have, and nearly all will concede the Roman church was having a problem in the period before the Reformation.

As a convert to Eastern Christianity, which puts a great emphasis on ecclesiastical history, two things that surprised me were the extent to which the major denominations agree with each other on the basic narrative of what happened in the church, while disagreeing over the theological interpretation of these events.

However, some things that continually frustrates me is the false dichotomy some Western Christian denominations and groups emphasize between Catholicism and Protestantism, and also the untrue historical narratives advocated by some, and also the complete ignorance concerning the Eastern churches one frequently encounters among some Western Christians. This results in events being needlessly polemicized and sources from the “other side” being mistrusted by the members of some denominations, including some schismatic traditional Catholics as well as a minority of Protestants, and a majority of Restorationists, when there exists three independent non-secular witness in the form of the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches and the Assyrian Church of the East whose perspective is not prejudiced either for or against one side, since we recognize both the failures of Catholic and Protestant churches, and all Eastern Christians, even extremists such as the Old Calendarist churches (not to be confused with Old Believers or Old Rite Orthodox) are aware of the failures of their own denominations, from a historical perspective.

We are never going to agree on all this, but there is a lot to learn in discussions like these.

I don’t see why we can’t come to agreement on the basics of church history, since the past is a matter of historical fact and there are historical records and other documents.

The difference in opinion normally, among most Christians engaging in theological disagreements, comes down to a question of theology. Roman Catholics believe Martin Luther’s actions were inherently wrong. Protestants disagree. Orthodox can be found sympathetic to some perspectives.

The only other area of disagreement is with regards to hagiography, mainly after the schisms. Anglicans tried to bypass this by focusing initially on only those pious Christians mentioned in the New Testament being venerable saints, but since they never bothered to rename the majority of their churches, this resulted in this approach being discarded in favor of a more ecumenical and also factually oriented hagiography, which I admire (except where it has been politicized by the left wing of the Anglican Communion, for example, the current Calendar of the Episcopal Church USA contains many people who I feel should not be included, however, the calendar at the time the 1979 BCP was published was very good.

Some Protestants and Restorationists take an anti-hagiographical view but I object to this as it discredits tens of thousands, nay, hundreds of thousands of Christian martyrs and other exemplary Christians, for no reason, since Lutherans and many Anglicans still venerate these persons without engaging in the more controversial practice of seeking their intercession in prayer.
 
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