Rate of Abortion is highest in countries where it is illegal

[MikeK]

Why have laws criminalising puppy abuse then? If someone want to drown a puppy they're going to do it anyway.

If you were interested in an honest comparison, you would have asked about legality of performing abortions on animals, which is legal pretty much everywhere.

Abortion is murder, it probably doesn't qualify as torture though. I would be surprised if it were more mentally traumatic for the child than natural birth.

When you hinge your arguments on apealing to emotions you will lose every time.

 

[Davidnic]

That's unfair. Abortion is a women's rights issue, no matter which way you look at it. And there are plenty of feminist organisations lobbying against the selective abortions that take place (mostly) in India and China.

But they are fine with the gender based, Club foot based, Cleft pallet based or economic based ones that kill 25 million. Abortion is modern honor killing and often at the behest of a man who does not want to be responsible.

There are many parts of it that make it a women's rights issue for the women being killed. The one's called cells or globs.

You are right, we can not just say it is baby killing. But it is. So we need to say...it is baby killing...and this is why. Then explain. But if they do not understand or do not see. Someone still was killed.

So the question is, at the end of the day...how many do we still let die while we try to convince someone who is wrong of the truth. If someone is waling down the street killing people, you don't let it go until everyone agrees on a course of action.

Moral leadership demands decisions that do what is right, even if people do not see it. Many people thought blacks were not people when the government and Church forced the issue of civil rights in America. It did not make waiting an option until those who were wrong knew it.

We can not let innocents be martyrs to relativism. Work to make it illegal and to educate people about why it is wrong at the same time.

Now, for those who work against it to ignore the poor is a sin and that needs to be addressed. Many who pretend to oppose abortion in the political realm really have a vested interest in it staying legal. Gotta lock those votes up. And also if they actually take efforts to help the poor who want to have the children and are sold the bill of goods that abortion is an option...that costs money.

Most opposition to the teachings on life can be summed up in one of two things that makes people ignore the right thing to do:

They are not like me or as human as me
That would be expensive

Those two justifications cost so many lives.

 

[Antigone]

Alright, I'll say it one more time and then I'm bowing out of this thread because I've got nothing to add:

You CANNOT criminalise abortion unless there is enough support because that won't stop abortion.

Anyone who is serious about abortion needs to realise this.

 

[WarriorAngel]

That's unfair. Abortion is a women's rights issue, no matter which way you look at it. And there are plenty of feminist organisations lobbying against the selective abortions that take place (mostly) in India and China.

Ooooook...so what if the tables were turned and it was male babies?
Fish fodder or what?

All countries are examples to the other ones. Sadly the examples are horrible.

Time these leaders get their heads put on right and do the right thing. No babies need to die just because they are merely inconvenient.

 

[Davidnic]

Alright, I'll say it one more time and then I'm bowing out of this thread because I've got nothing to add:

You CANNOT criminalise abortion unless there is enough support because that won't stop abortion.

Anyone who is serious about abortion needs to realise this.

And I understand that. But the drive to educate and to make it criminal are not exclusive. They can be done at the same time. That is my point.

 

[S.ilvio]

That's because abortion involves moral complexities for most people that don't exist for Catholics. Not all people are Catholic and therefore you can't just brush these complexities aside with 'it's babykilling'.

You can't compare it to killing a puppy for reasons that you as well as I understand, so I won't do any of us the injustice of prentending you are stupid enough to need them typed out.

I'm coming at this as a human being, my Catholicism is irrelevant. If it were the case how do you explain non Christians who are as adamantly (Black and white) pro-life as I am..?

Please do pretend I'm stupid and explain your capacity to endorse criminalising abuse of pupppies, and not the killing of unborn babies...

 

[S.ilvio]

That's unfair. Abortion is a women's rights issue, no matter which way you look at it. And there are plenty of feminist organisations lobbying against the selective abortions that take place (mostly) in India and China.

Could you refer us to one Feminist organisation in The Netherlands that lobbies against selective abortions in...... The Netherlands..?

 

[S.ilvio]

When you hinge your arguments on apealing to emotions you will lose every time.

In your opinion.

Whereas I'm still waiting on an explanation on a justification for criminalising animal abuse while baby killing remains legal...

 

[S.ilvio]

Alright, I'll say it one more time and then I'm bowing out of this thread because I've got nothing to add:

You CANNOT criminalise abortion unless there is enough support.

What a cop out...

 

[Gwendolyn]

What a cop out...

It isn't a cop-out.

She is saying this: if a government makes a law that a huge section of the population is going to break anyway (even if they have to get creative), then is the law really effective?

Only if the cultural mindset shifts to one that sees the horror of abortion will a law banning abortion be truly effective.

So what do we do? Help shift that mindset.

 

[S.ilvio]

It isn't a cop-out.

She is saying this: if a government makes a law that a huge section of the population is going to break anyway (even if they have to get creative), then is the law really effective?

Only if the cultural mindset shifts to one that sees the horror of abortion will a law banning abortion be truly effective.

So what do we do? Help shift that mindset.

Another massive cop out.

The diatribe of defeatism while babies are legally killed on your watch with your placid and implicit imprematur.

 

[Adam Warlock]

And I understand that. But the drive to educate and to make it criminal are not exclusive. They can be done at the same time. That is my point.

Exactly

 

[MikeK]

The diatribe of defeatism while babies are legally killed on your watch with your placid and implicit imprematur.

LOL. Everybody, look at me, quick!

 

[MikeK]

But the drive to educate and to make it criminal are not exclusive. They can be done at the same time.

Agreed. Educate, make it criminal, and do whatever is possible to ease the burdens of women who might (for any reason, no matter how seemingly trivial) want to procure an abortion.

I do worry that criminalising abortion might even popularise it more than it is now. Nobody likes to see their "rights" being taken away.

At any rate, I am in favor of doing what we can to reduce abortions to the lowest number possible by any means necesarry that do not directly or indirectly lead to the loss of more human life.

 

[S.ilvio]

LOL. Everybody, look at me, quick!

This from the king of the dramaitc exit... and return the following month...

 

[MikeK]

This from the king of the dramaitc exit... and return the following month...

...by popular demand. Did you not see those threads?

 

[S.ilvio]

...by popular demand. Did you not see those threads?

OK, thread hijack over...

 

[Joshua G.]

It isn't a cop-out.

She is saying this: if a government makes a law that a huge section of the population is going to break anyway (even if they have to get creative), then is the law really effective?

Only if the cultural mindset shifts to one that sees the horror of abortion will a law banning abortion be truly effective.

So what do we do? Help shift that mindset.

Gwen, what's going on here? If you're just playing devil's advocate then please say so because right now I am.... I don't know. I'm at a loss for words.

 

[Gwendolyn]

Gwen, what's going on here? If you're just playing devil's advocate then please say so because right now I am.... I don't know. I'm at a loss for words.

Just playing devil's advocate. Sometimes I just want to be contrary.

 

[Joshua G.]

I think perhaps this is a good example of pragmaticism gone too far, where the (percieved) end justify the means.