Rapture

[Jerrysch]

Will those who died and were considered" justified by faith", prior to the comming of Messiah participate in the Rapture? Why or why not?

 

[eph3Nine]

Will those who died and were considered" justified by faith", prior to the comming of Messiah participate in the Rapture? Why or why not?

NO. The rapture is part of the MYSTERY truth revealed and relevant to the church, which is His BODY. Those prior to the coming of Messiah were JEWS and not members of the Body of Christ, but of the KINGDOM Church, the "little flock". They will rule and reign on EARTH, while we will rule and reign in heaven.

 

[Dispy]

Will those who died and were considered" justified by faith", prior to the comming of Messiah participate in the Rapture? Why or why not?

Jerry:
Since the fall of man God had demonistraded His grace by always providing a means in which one could be saved/justified. It was by FAITH (believing/doing) what God required at that point in time of human history.

Under the Law, one's FAITH was demonstrated by observing/doing the deed/works of the Civil, Moral, and Ceremonial Laws of Moses.

Thefore it is concluded that salvation/justification was always on the basis of FAITH.

Those saved under the Law and the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom" will inherit an earthly kingdom. Those saved under the preaching of "the gospel of the grace of God" (the Body of Christ), will inherit a heavenly home.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[Tractor1]

Will those who died and were considered" justified by faith", prior to the comming of Messiah participate in the Rapture? Why or why not?

Only those placed into the Body of Christ by the Spirit's baptism will participate.

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[TheScottsMen]

Where are the dead kingdom saints and all those who died prior to the ministry of Paul today?

 

[Jerrysch]

NO. The rapture is part of the MYSTERY truth revealed and relevant to the church, which is His BODY. Those prior to the coming of Messiah were JEWS and not members of the Body of Christ, but of the KINGDOM Church, the "little flock". They will rule and reign on EARTH, while we will rule and reign in heaven.

First off Jews were of the sons of Israel, your statement suggests that no one other than the decendants of Israel were justified by faith. This is just incorrect, there were many who were not Jews who were justified by faith, Abraham is one example of a nonJew who the Scripture refers to as justified by faith.

I do also note that you suggested that the pivital point is the comming of Messiah not the preaching/conversion of Paul. I think the true "piviot point" is to be found in Acts 2 at the Baptism in/with the Holy Spirit it was at this point the Old(er) Testament believers were distinguished from the New(er) Testament believers, yet there were some who participated in both, the disciples would be an example, they were members of both groups.

 

[eph3Nine]

First off Jews were of the sons of Israel, your statement suggests that no one other than the decendants of Israel were justified by faith. This is just incorrect, there were many who were not Jews who were justified by faith, Abraham is one example of a nonJew who the Scripture refers to as justified by faith

You have said a lot but confused many, including myself. LOL

Anyone saved BEFORE the advent of Messiah is NOT a member of the Body of Christ. That was my point. The body concept was UNIQUE and first preached by Paul, as revealed to him by the Risen Christ.

I do also note that you suggested that the pivital point is the comming of Messiah not the preaching/conversion of Paul. I think the true "piviot point" is to be found in Acts 2 at the Baptism in/with the Holy Spirit it was at this point the Old(er) Testament believers were distinguished from the New(er) Testament believers, yet there were some who participated in both, the disciples would be an example, they were members of both groups.

Acts 2 was still the KINGDOM Church...ie: JEWS. NOTHING new here, but a continuation of the same church or called out ones that were before. ONLY one game in town and it was JUDAISM.

NOT until the saving of Paul in ACTS 9 are we presented with anything NEW, not the least of which is the formation OF the Body of Christ. No body of Christ is in acts 2. Still a very jewish program on a jewish feast day with Jews in attendance.

The disciples...were members of the KINGDOM CHURCH, never of the Body of Christ. They never preached such a thing as it was still a SECRET, Hid in God.

 

[Tractor1]

I think the true "piviot point" is to be found in Acts 2 at the Baptism in/with the Holy Spirit

We're in agreement.

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[Jerrysch]

Acts 2 was still the KINGDOM Church...ie: JEWS. NOTHING new here, but a continuation of the same church or called out ones that were before. ONLY one game in town and it was JUDAISM.

Nothing new? Wouldn't you consider the baptism in/with the Holy Spirit new? It was this act of God which transformed the Apostles of Messiah from men who were afraid of their own shadow into men willing to call down the Jewish leadership and tell them they were responsible for the killing of Messiah.

 

[Jerrysch]

NOT until the saving of Paul in ACTS 9 are we presented with anything NEW, not the least of which is the formation OF the Body of Christ. No body of Christ is in acts 2. Still a very jewish program on a jewish feast day with Jews in attendance.

The disciples...were members of the KINGDOM CHURCH, never of the Body of Christ. They never preached such a thing as it was still a SECRET, Hid in God.

If I agreed with the first point here I would agree with the final, yet I do not, it is my understanding, and I consider it to be correct, that the body of Messiah began when that new event, the baptism in/by the Holy Spirit occured. To present two chruches butted up against each other is to misrepresent Scripture. Throughout the book of Acts after the Baptism the beleivers are collectively refered to as the church, the body of Messiah, they are never referred to as the Kingdom church, sadly, it is my opinion that this term "kingdom church" was coined to define that group of beleivers who were members of the church who Paul sought to destroy prior to his conversion. This then falls into the same catagory as those who seek to call the instruction which God gave to Adam as a Covenant, a theological issue, not a Scriptural issue. This "kingdom church" concept is a concept which is read into the Scriptures, it is not read out of it.

And for the record, the Apostles were members of the body of Messiah, the church as soon as they had been baptized by/with the Holy Spirit. It was at this point that the dispensation changed.

 

[WAB]

If I agreed with the first point here I would agree with the final, yet I do not, it is my understanding, and I consider it to be correct, that the body of Messiah began when that new event, the baptism in/by the Holy Spirit occured. To present two chruches butted up against each other is to misrepresent Scripture. Throughout the book of Acts after the Baptism the beleivers are collectively refered to as the church, the body of Messiah, they are never referred to as the Kingdom church, sadly, it is my opinion that this term "kingdom church" was coined to define that group of beleivers who were members of the church who Paul sought to destroy prior to his conversion. This then falls into the same catagory as those who seek to call the instruction which God gave to Adam as a Covenant, a theological issue, not a Scriptural issue. This "kingdom church" concept is a concept which is read into the Scriptures, it is not read out of it.

And for the record, the Apostles were members of the body of Messiah, the church as soon as they had been baptized by/with the Holy Spirit. It was at this point that the dispensation changed.

Agree wholeheartedly.

Shalom.... (Peace, if you prefer)... WAB

 

[Dispy]

If I agreed with the first point here I would agree with the final, yet I do not, it is my understanding, and I consider it to be correct, that the body of Messiah began when that new event, the baptism in/by the Holy Spirit occured. To present two chruches butted up against each other is to misrepresent Scripture. Throughout the book of Acts after the Baptism the beleivers are collectively refered to as the church, the body of Messiah, they are never referred to as the Kingdom church, sadly, it is my opinion that this term "kingdom church" was coined to define that group of beleivers who were members of the church who Paul sought to destroy prior to his conversion. This then falls into the same catagory as those who seek to call the instruction which God gave to Adam as a Covenant, a theological issue, not a Scriptural issue. This "kingdom church" concept is a concept which is read into the Scriptures, it is not read out of it.

And for the record, the Apostles were members of the body of Messiah, the church as soon as they had been baptized by/with the Holy Spirit. It was at this point that the dispensation changed.

Jerry:
It wasn't the Chruch, the Body of Christ that started in Acts 2, at Pentecost, It was the beginning of the fulfillment of the prophesy by Joel in Joel 2:28-32, the Tribulation.

Those at Pentecost thought those to whom the Holy Spirit poured out upon, were drunk. Peter in Acts 2:15-20 tells them it is the fulfillment of Joel's prophesy, and then Peter continues to quote Joel almost word for word.

The Church, the Body of Christ consists of Jew and Gentile on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law. That Church didn't even exist at Pentecost. It was still future revelation to the Apostle Paul who wasn't saved until Acts 9, at least 7 years after Pentecost.

Prior to the setting aside of Israel, it was unlawful for a Jew to go to one of another country (cf. Acts 10:28). There was still a "middle wall of partition" between the Jew and Gentile.

It wasn't until after the leaders of Israel rejected the 3rd Person of the Trinity (they, and the children of Israel had already rejected God the Father, and God the Son), that God raised up Saul/Paul, in Acts 9, and then showed Peter, in a vision in Acts 10, that the Gentiles were no longer to be considered "unclean."

That vision to Peter proves to me that Israel, as a nation, is in a set aside condition, just as God set the Gentiles aside back at the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11. Paul tells us in Romans 11:32 "For God hath concluded them all (Jews and Gentiles) in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all."

It is after the raising up of Saul/Paul, and the setting aside of the nation of Israel, that God MADE "the one new man", the Body of Christ. The Church, the Body of Christ is a "new creation," made up of believing "set aside" Jews and Gentiles. NOT Gentiles grafted into the nation of Israel.

 

[RodJones]

Will those who died and were considered" justified by faith", prior to the comming of Messiah participate in the Rapture? Why or why not?

Israel's "good news" was that the "meek shall inherit the earth", and that their heavenly kindom will be set in Isreal, notice did Jesus ever preach that man will exsit in the heavens?, NO he makes it clear that "no man has ascended into the heavens", and when he talked about the "hereafter", he spoke about paradise in hell, and the kingdom that will be set up on the earth. Peter and the 11 did not preach the rapture, nor did they think that their hope was in heavenly places, in our epistles (Rom-Philmon) we are told that we are "seated in heaven places", and we place our hope in being "caught up", but the only place you will find this doctrine is in our epistles; from Romans thru Philmon.

 

[eph3Nine]

Israel's "good news" was that the "meek shall inherit the earth", and that their heavenly kindom will be set in Isreal, notice did Jesus ever preach that man will exsit in the heavens?, NO he makes it clear that "no man has ascended into the heavens", and when he talked about the "hereafter", he spoke about paradise in hell, and the kingdom that will be set up on the earth. Peter and the 11 did not preach the rapture, nor did they think that their hope was in heavenly places, in our epistles (Rom-Philmon) we are told that we are "seated in heaven places", and we place our hope in being "caught up", but the only place you will find this doctrine is in our epistles; from Romans thru Philmon.

AMEN, and very well done, rod. Welcome!

 

[WAB]

Where are the dead kingdom saints and all those who died prior to the ministry of Paul today?

It would take a long post to address all of the implications here, but just briefly... let us assume by "dead kingdom saints" you are referring to Jews and proselytes who were looking forward to the coming Messiah; and then of course Christians who have died up till the present.

1Peter 3:18-20a... "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened (brought to life) by the Spirit; By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime (in time past) were disobedient..."

Now Eph. 4:7,8... "But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. Therefore it (the Scripture) says, 'When He ascended on high he led a host (or multitude) of captives, and He gave gifts to men."

The Scripture referred to in Eph.8 is Psalm 68:18.... "Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive; thou hast received gifts for men..."

In the KJV above, where it says "led captivity captive" many translations clarify this by saying.. "...He led a host (or multitude) of captives..."

When Christ was "three days and three nights" in the bowels of the earth... at least part of that time He went and preached to those who (before His death and burial) had not heard of the Messiah/Saviour. That would include a multitude of so-called Gentiles.

When Christ resurrected, He led those who responded to His preaching (to the spirits in prison) to their heavenly home. Of course we don't have all the details, but the facts are clear.

Of course the ones He led included those who were "...in Abraham's bosom..."

So... as your question intimates, those referred to are in the presence of the Lord, and enjoying His fellowship.

And one of these days...

 

[heymikey80]

did Jesus ever preach that man will exist in the heavens?

Yep.

"In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. And where I go you know, and the way you know.” John 14:2-4

... nor did they [Peter and the 11] think that their hope was in heavenly places ...

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you," 1 Pt 1:3-4

"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them." Heb 11:13-16

 

[eph3Nine]

Yep.

"In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. And where I go you know, and the way you know.” John 14:2-4

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you," 1 Pt 1:3-4

"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them." Heb 11:13-16

All the scripture you quoted is about and TO the nation Israel. They are not about YOU, the church , which is His body at all!

Sigh...no wonder so many are confused.

 

[RodJones]

Yep.

"In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. And where I go you know, and the way you know.” John 14:2-4

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you," 1 Pt 1:3-4

"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them." Heb 11:13-16

The verses that you gave was talking about the kingdom, that is going to be set up ON THE EARTH (ZION), thats why he tells Israel what to pray for "thy kingdom COME, thy will be done IN EARTH", also if the Jews were to go to heaven, Why did Peter say in ACTS that " David has not ascend into the heavens"?