Rapture pre-tribulation or post tribulation

[NOTurTypical]

None of the verses you linked says "church". The last time the church or "churches" are mentioned in Revelation after 4:1 they are in the throne room of heaven when Christ is given the scroll. Jesus Himself identifies the "candlesticks" as the churches.

When Christ begins to open the sealed scroll the "candlesticks" are in heaven. All members of the church are "saints", however not all "saints" in the Bible are members of the church, or body of Christ.

 

[wayfaring man]

None of the verses you linked says "church". The last time the church or "churches" are mentioned in Revelation after 4:1 they are in the throne room of heaven when Christ is given the scroll. Jesus Himself identifies the "candlesticks" as the churches.

When Christ begins to open the sealed scroll the "candlesticks" are in heaven. All members of the church are "saints", however not all "saints" in the Bible are members of the church, or body of Christ.

That's why I included the last two verses, there's only one Church, the body of Christ, and consequently all who are in Him are members of His Church.

Hence, pretty much every time The Bible says things which refer His saints, His people, His servants, etc. it is a reference to members of His Church.

For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. <-----> Romans 12:4+5

For as the body is one, and has many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. <-----> 1st Corinthians 12:12


May The Lord Be Magnified !

wm

 

[NOTurTypical]

That's why I included the last two verses, there's only one Church, the body of Christ, and consequently all who are in Him are members of His Church.

The last 2 verses are not relevant, we were discussing the book of Revelation.

Hence, pretty much every time The Bible says things which refer His saints, His people, His servants, etc. it is a reference to members of His Church.

Not true at all. The term "saint" or elect is used throughout the Bible, the "church" wasn't born until Acts chapter 2. Any elect of God is a "saint". Not all saints are also members of the body of Christ. John the Baptist is an example of a saint who is not a member of the church or body of Christ.

 

[wayfaring man]

Makes no sense to wrestle over words.

You have your view and are evidently quite satisfied with it.

And as such are going to face things the way you are...

Not me though, because I believe differently.

And The Spirit which teaches me, tells me not to believe otherwise.

For it is not my calling to be fooled by sweet sounding, men pleasing, let your guard down "teachings".

Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:
That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits: <-----> Isaiah 30:8-10

Every one who can be fooled, will be fooled.

And The Lord won't suffer those who've fooled themselves and others.

wm

 

[NOTurTypical]

Makes no sense to wrestle over words.

No, it's a matter of precision. Treating every word as if it is there by deliberate design by the Holy Spirit. It's very important to be diligent and very precise when it comes to God's Word. At least I believe so.

 

[wayfaring man]

But words are not in and of them self precise, only the God-given interpretation/Holy Spirit understanding of what is meant by those words is precise.

Most every word has a considerable range of meaning, and that range often alters significantly over time.

This doesn't mean we should forsake studying, but unless The Lord is revealing the intended meaning to us personally, we in all likelihood will be well "off the mark".

For what man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God. <-----> 1st Corinthians 2:11

There's probably a lot of things we can agree on... but the timing of the "rapture", doesn't appear to be one of them.

But if neither of us knows for sure, it'd be better, in most respects, to think we may indeed have to endure the great time of tribulation, and then discover we do not; then to believe we won't have to endure it - to find out that we definitely do.

Hope, and Peace, with Love in Christ.

wm

 

[Memukan]

Websters Dictionary rapture= a state of ecstasy. In Luke Yahshua said; If you can except it HEAVEN is within you. There aint no rapture until the Messiah returns. Ask your self how many last trumpets are there. At the last Trumpet the dead shall rise and those who are alive will meet the LORD in the air.If you look from a Jewish perspective about the marriage ceremony,Then u may understand what happens when Messiah returns,.....the bride knows not when the groom comes..... when they hear the groom coming they go to meet him and return with the groom for a marriage feast. 98% of Christians do not understand the Feast times of the LORD. Instead they listen to preachers that do not have a clue. Remember the BIBLE is a Jewish Book and you need to understand from Hebrew thought and not the Greek.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Makes no sense to wrestle over words.

You have your view and are evidently quite satisfied with it.

And as such are going to face things the way you are...

Not me though, because I believe differently.

And The Spirit which teaches me, tells me not to believe otherwise.

For it is not my calling to be fooled by sweet sounding, men pleasing, let your guard down "teachings".

Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:
That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits: <-----> Isaiah 30:8-10

Every one who can be fooled, will be fooled.

And The Lord won't suffer those who've fooled themselves and others.

wm

The rapture
2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled , neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand .
When it happens.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed , the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work : only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed , whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish ; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved .
What happens to those unsaved when the Wicked sets up his throne.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
But to we chosen from the beginning, He will not send the delusion.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore , brethren, stand fast , and hold the traditions which ye have been taught , whether by word, or our epistle. 16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
Let us work while it is day.
John 9:4
4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh , when no man can work .

Psalm 30:5 KJV
For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.

 

[a pilgrim]

But words are not in and of them self precise, only the God-given interpretation/Holy Spirit understanding of what is meant by those words is precise.

Most every word has a considerable range of meaning, and that range often alters significantly over time.

This doesn't mean we should forsake studying, but unless The Lord is revealing the intended meaning to us personally, we in all likelihood will be well "off the mark".

For what man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God. <-----> 1st Corinthians 2:11

There's probably a lot of things we can agree on... but the timing of the "rapture", doesn't appear to be one of them.

But if neither of us knows for sure, it'd be better, in most respects, to think we may indeed have to endure the great time of tribulation, and then discover we do not; then to believe we won't have to endure it - to find out that we definitely do.

Hope, and Peace, with Love in Christ.

wm

Brother, I disagree with the first statements about words based on this:

Prov. 30
[5] Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
[6] Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Matt. 4
[4] But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Matt. 24
[35] Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Every word is pure, important, and enduring. Having said that, let's consider the following:

1 Cor. 15
[22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
[23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
[24] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Because every word is important consider the sequence of events:

The Order of Resurrection:

1. Christ the first fruits, (approx. A.D. 33.)
2. They that are Christ's
- A. The Dead in Christ
- B. We which are alive and remain
3. At His coming, then cometh the end.

1 Cor. 15
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thess. 4
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Prior to the pouring out of God's wrath, right before the end:

Rev. 14
[14] And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
[15] And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
[16] And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Immediately afterwards:

Rev. 14
[17] And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
[18] And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
[19] And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

But we get pulled out RIGHT before the pouring out of His wrath:

1 Thess. 5
[9] For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

How long before? Thirty days.

Dan. 12
[11] And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Rev. 11
[3] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

1290 - 1260 = 30 days

Isaiah 26
[19] Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
[20] Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
[21] For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

There is the dead raised first in verse 19, see it? Then what?

Zech. 11
[8] Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.

The three wicked shepherds, The dragon, the false prophet, the antichrist.

Matt. 24
[22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The Revelation only clear depicts the last 1260 days of Earth as we know it. This is the close of the tribulation. To say, "God would never let his bride go through tribulation, what husband would do that to his wife?" is a question asked in ignorance. Ask the Chinese church, the church in Muslim nations, the church in Viet Nam, North Korea, etc. They suffer bloody tribulation EVERY DAY.

Acts 14
[22] Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Rom. 8
[35] Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Rom. 12
[12] Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;

1 Thess. 3
[4] For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

The professing American church is asleep. And what does the theory of pretribulation rapture sing to the lazy, sleepy, carnal American church?

Go to sleep, go to sleep, go to sleep little baby...............

Rom. 13
[11] And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

1 Cor. 15
[34] Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Eph. 5
[14] Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.


So, after all of my "theorizing," what IF I'm wrong and the catching away happens prior to the tribulation? It's a win win for those expecting the worst. BUT! IF, is the other way around, the sleeping church will fall to pieces and all the false professors will flee from her like roaches from the bug man.

"What should I do, Lord?"

Matt. 24
[25] Behold, I have told you before.

[36] But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

[42] Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

[44] Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

 

[ForumGuy]

I think it is evident in the Bible that there will be a rapture. My question is when is this rapture going to happen?

Don't ask when, and don't believe anyone who claims to know:

Matthew 24:36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

The Apostles themsleves were waiting for Jesus to come back, and every generation of Christians hoped Jesus would come back to them. Odds are it will not happen in your life time, it does, thats great, but live your life as though it won't, because its unlikely God's coming to scoop us up.

 

[His_disciple3]

The problem most folks have with seeing a pre-trib rapture or mid-trib rapture in scripture, is confusion, or even maybe a better term would be lack of knowledge, not a lack of knowledge of scriptures but a lack of knowledge of words. The Event on the Last day is not a rapture (a taken up) but rather a resurrection (a rising of the dead). and even the Bible in Revelation speaks of a first resurrection and the last resurrection, 1 Thes. 4:13-18 is speaking of the taken up of the saints, it says nothing about the lost being resurrected, as it does in the last resurrection, those that are asleep In Christ, (blood bought saints) are raised first then we (the remaining Blood bought saints) which remain are called up with them to be with Him forever. yes two groups are compared in 1Thes. but the lost is not one of them , it does not say those that are asleep in Christ and then we which remain and then the rest of the dead and the lost which remain are taken up, it just two groups the first are asleep in Christ and the ones that are alive that are in Christ also. ANd to say that 1 Thes. 4 is talking about all the dead is assumming so, or even adding to scriptures, it is simply not there about any lost being called up in 1 Thes. 4 as Revelation does on the judgement day!!
And to those that say that can't believe in the early rapture before the last day resurrection, simply because we can't the word "Rapture" in scriptures, how do you ever believe in the " Holy Trinity"

 

[a pilgrim]

None of the verses you linked says "church". The last time the church or "churches" are mentioned in Revelation after 4:1 they are in the throne room of heaven when Christ is given the scroll. Jesus Himself identifies the "candlesticks" as the churches.

When Christ begins to open the sealed scroll the "candlesticks" are in heaven. All members of the church are "saints", however not all "saints" in the Bible are members of the church, or body of Christ.

I used to believe pretrib rapture, and remember this point, but it must also be noted that the Book of the Revelation in not chronological. Though we do not have the word, "church," after it's mention in chap. 4, it is not a "proof" that the church does not experience some/all of the tribulation.

We must all be honest and admit we all have "theories" of the how's and when's of end times events.

Paul gave us a good word,

"Behold, I shew you a mystery. . . "

Though I have MY theory, too, (which, of course is most correct!) I believe the Lord is going to return in such a way that all of us, (hip pocket theologians,) are going to say, "Well, imagine that, he did it THAT way!"

 

[His_disciple3]

to the ones that say that the Church in not mentioned in rev. after Chap 4 you guys just don't know scriptures or you don't know the Church. And when it says in REv that this happened and then this happened and then this happened , It is in chronological order, so here is the church/ Bride in Rev. after chapter 4 and she is made ready with her white robe before the first or second resurrection, which would mean she has been taken up before the last and notable day the Lord comes. PRI_TRIB or MID_TRIB is likely but rev. 19-20 rules out a post-trib

Revelation 19:1-9
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Revelation 19:11
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
KJV
Revelation 20:1-2
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
KJV

Revelation 20:4-5
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
KJV


Revelation 20:6
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
KJV
Revelation 20:10-15
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
KJV
please take note in rev 20:4-5 it is the tribulation saints that are the first resurrected, and then the rest, on the day after the 1000 years, however the Bride is made ready in chapter 19 and Notice that John is saying and I saw , and then this happened, and I saw it is in order !

 

[a pilgrim]

O.k., let's go about this another way. IN REGARDS TO END TIMES EVENTS, how many resurrections are there? Two, right? Right. (I'm not talking about Lazarus, the dead that walked out of the tombs at Christ's resurrection, etc.) Let's look at these two resurrections:

The First Resurrection or as it is also called the Resurrection of the Righteous.

Isaiah 26
[19] Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

1 Cor. 15
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thess. 4
[13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Rev. 20
[1] And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
[3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The Second Resurrection or as it is called The Resurrection of the Damned, (or Doomed: )

Rev. 20
[5a] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. . .

[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Now, when does the First Resurrection occur? Right before the rapture/catching away, (what ever you want to call it, right? Right.)

1 Cor. 15
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thess. 4
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I know this question sounds odd but how many First Resurrections are there? One.

Is it divided into two parts? NO, there is NO scriptural support for this teaching. No verses clearly teach this, it is a theory created to put the rapture at the beginning of the tribulation to justify this teaching.

When is the First Resurrection? (What does the Bible, our final authority, say?)

1 Cor. 15
[20] But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
[21] For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
[22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
[23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
[24] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

That is NOT the beginning of the tribulation, is it? No, Christ was the firstfruits, 2,000 years ago, the next ones resurrected, in order, are they that are Christ's AT his coming, THEN cometh THE END.

Then, he delievers the kingdom to God the Father, having PUT DOWN ALL RULE AND ALL AUTHORITY AND POWER. That, friend, is the the VERY END, right before the beginning of the 1,000 year reign, (for us premills.)

I remember my professor, in Bible College, dividing the resurrection of the righteous up into, as he put it, R1 and R2, BUT NEVER GIVING SUPPORTING SCRIPTURE. That is because there is only ONE resurrection of the righteous. It happens AT THE END.

 

[Andy S. Wright]

After years of studying eschatology from every conceivable angle, I've come to one simple viewpoint that I've labeled "pan-tribulationalism". Namely, I believe the end times are going to pan out exactly how God wants them to.

 

[His_disciple3]

O.k., let's go about this another way. IN REGARDS TO END TIMES EVENTS, how many resurrections are there? Two, right? Right. (I'm not talking about Lazarus, the dead that walked out of the tombs at Christ's resurrection, etc.) Let's look at these two resurrections:

The First Resurrection or as it is also called the Resurrection of the Righteous.

Isaiah 26
[19] Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

1 Cor. 15
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thess. 4
[13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Rev. 20
[1] And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
[3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The Second Resurrection or as it is called The Resurrection of the Damned, (or Doomed: )

Rev. 20
[5a] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. . .

[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Now, when does the First Resurrection occur? Right before the rapture/catching away, (what ever you want to call it, right? Right.)

1 Cor. 15
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thess. 4
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I know this question sounds odd but how many First Resurrections are there? One.

Is it divided into two parts? NO, there is NO scriptural support for this teaching. No verses clearly teach this, it is a theory created to put the rapture at the beginning of the tribulation to justify this teaching.

When is the First Resurrection? (What does the Bible, our final authority, say?)

1 Cor. 15
[20] But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
[21] For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
[22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
[23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
[24] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

That is NOT the beginning of the tribulation, is it? No, Christ was the firstfruits, 2,000 years ago, the next ones resurrected, in order, are they that are Christ's AT his coming, THEN cometh THE END.

Then, he delievers the kingdom to God the Father, having PUT DOWN ALL RULE AND ALL AUTHORITY AND POWER. That, friend, is the the VERY END, right before the beginning of the 1,000 year reign, (for us premills.)

I remember my professor, in Bible College, dividing the resurrection of the righteous up into, as he put it, R1 and R2, BUT NEVER GIVING SUPPORTING SCRIPTURE. That is because there is only ONE resurrection of the righteous. It happens AT THE END.

SEE POST # 31
1 thes. verses you referr to we which remain alive are taken up, is not a resurrection of the dead but a taken up of those alive, which is a rapture, which is scriptural support for a rapture, and this is not the first resurrection descibed in Rev. 20, for that resurrection is clearly talking about the ones that denied the mark of the beast and who was beheaded for their belief, which is the tribulation saints, referr back to rev 7 ( i think) where a number that could not be measured, who were out of the great tribulation. and Rev. 19 says the the wedding is ready and the wife has her white robe, the bride is there before the first resurrection, do the math! and Jesus said when he comes back one will be taken and one will be left. this is not on the last day for on the last day all dead are raised, do the math!

 

[food4thought]

It is important to note that in the Bible "first" has more than one meaning. Is Jesus Christ a created being? No, Jesus Christ is the 3rd Person of the Trinity/Tri-Unity, uncreated and eternal. Then how is it that the Bible says that Christ is the "Firstborn of all creation" (Col 1:15 NKJV... also "Firstborn" in NASB and KJV)? The answer is that Christ is the pre-eminent One over all creation, taking the place of the firstborn in the family of man, ruling over His brethren.

The first resurrection is more than just the first in chronoligical order, it is the first in pre-eminence because it consists of the saved. It is not a twisting of the Scripture to see that it implies more than one stage to the first resurrection because the idea of "first" is not primarilly about chronological order.

Just sayin'

 

[His_disciple3]

It is important to note that in the Bible "first" has more than one meaning. Is Jesus Christ a created being? No, Jesus Christ is the 3rd Person of the Trinity/Tri-Unity, uncreated and eternal. Then how is it that the Bible says that Christ is the "Firstborn of all creation" (Col 1:15 NKJV... also "Firstborn" in NASB and KJV)? The answer is that Christ is the pre-eminent One over all creation, taking the place of the firstborn in the family of man, ruling over His brethren.

The first resurrection is more than just the first in chronoligical order, it is the first in pre-eminence because it consists of the saved. It is not a twisting of the Scripture to see that it implies more than one stage to the first resurrection because the idea of "first" is not primarilly about chronological order.

Just sayin'

news flash, Jesus was a created being well at least His fleshly body was created, but as I have pointed out John said "and I saw this" "and then this happen" "and then I saw this" makes it in chronoligical order, so yes to say that the first surrection, didn't occur fist is twisting scriptures

 

[Maverick1]

Job was not being punished, Paul was not either, & neither was Jesus, He was Murdered by the Murderer, the rulers of darkness. Their Suffering EXACTLY, WAS brought on by the devil, Not by God, although ALLOWED for Gods Reasons. Yes God WOULD & DID do that & Allow that to done to His own Son, with Jesus' Consent; "Not My will, But THINE Be Done" is what he prayed in the garden of gethsemane. The Wrath of GOD, has been brought about by GOD even Using the devil to Pour out hell on earth. THE FIRST Exmaple of The "Great Tribualtion"; The Ten Plagues, and God Keeping His People Preserved & untouched by such while Still in "Egypt" (a figurative also of "The World today") during The Tribualtion; was Moses & The Israelites, PRIOR TO The "Exodus"; EXIT, (figurative of The Caught Up Rapturo) before being led into The Promise of the land to come. If thats any Consolation. Im aware that it may all seem to be a great Paradox. However, we do Not use only "logic" & Our understanding that God is a Loving God", to determine Life & its events. If indeed we believe that The Holy Bible is The Authorized & Infallible Inspired Word Of The Lord, and It Is, then we must "study to show oureselves Approved, RIGHTLY DIVIDING, (interpretting) The Word Of TRUTH, with The Guidance of The Spirit of Truth; The Comforter, The Holy Spirit to realize The FACTS. Trust GOD.

 

[Greatfull]

If the rapture were to be post trib wouldn't that imply that there is no security for salvation? For if a Chirstian takes the mark of the beast, he will then lose his salvation and be condemed to Hell as if he were not saved.