Rapture debate

[Soon Rev 22:11-12]

There is no "secret rapture" years before the second coming of Christ.

No mortals survive into an earthly millennium.

 

[holdon]

There is no "secret rapture" years before the second coming of Christ.

No mortals survive into an earthly millennium.

And you base this on what???

 

[eph3Nine]

There is no "secret rapture" years before the second coming of Christ.

No mortals survive into an earthly millennium.

There IS no rapture "debate"....LOL LOL

The rapture is part of the MYSTERY truths given to Paul for we the church which is His Body. If you are not a member of this Body, then you wont need to worry. NO RAPTURE FOR YOU!

For the rest of us who ARE...we are looking for the UPPER TAKER! We will spend the rest of Eternity with OUR Lord in the AIR...heaven...YEEEE haw.

 

[Soon Rev 22:11-12]

Post your the bible verses that you claim to support a rapture years before the 2nd coming, please.

 

[eph3Nine]

There is no "secret rapture" years before the second coming of Christ.

No mortals survive into an earthly millennium.

I believe YOU are the one who made the comment that needs some substantiation. YOU show US where there is no secret rapture before the second coming of Christ. NO ONE here made the statement that it would take place YEARS before...so this is something YOU brought with you to the conversation.

Also, where are you getting your information that no mortals survive into an earthly milennium?

 

[xenia]

Jeepers, Soon Rev. I don't believe in a Rapture either but you can't just post "I don't believe in the Rapure now you people take the time to prove to me it's true." It's upon you, in this forum, to prove that it's not true.

 

[Soon Rev 22:11-12]

... It's upon you, in this forum, to prove that it's not true.

OK. None of the Bible verses teach a rapture, as commonly believed. The whole Bible is my proof text. They all teach that the rapture/resurrection occur at the time of the 2nd coming and "the end of the world" as we know it.

There are no New Testament statements that could support mortals surviving the 2nd coming. All are destroyed or changed into immortals.

 

[holdon]

OK. None of the Bible verses teach a rapture, as commonly believed. The whole Bible is my proof text. They all teach that the rapture/resurrection occur at the time of the 2nd coming and "the end of the world" as we know it.

Here is your rapture verse:

1 Thess. 4:16 for the Lord himself, with an assembling shout, with archangel's voice and with trump of God, shall descend from heaven; and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
4:17 then *we*, the living who remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall be always with the Lord.

There are no New Testament statements that could support mortals surviving the 2nd coming. All are destroyed or changed into immortals.

Just take a look at these verses:

His coming:

Rev 19:11 And I saw the heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and one sitting on it, called Faithful and True, and he judges and makes war in righteousness.
19:12 And his eyes are a flame of fire, and upon his head many diadems, having a name written which no one knows but himself; 19:13 and he is clothed with a garment dipped in blood; and his name is called The Word of God.
19:14 And the armies which are in the heaven followed him upon white horses, clad in white, pure, fine linen.
19:15 And out of his mouth goes a sharp two-edged sword, that with it he might smite the nations; and he shall shepherd them with an iron rod; and he treads the wine-press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. And:

19:19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against him that sat upon the horse, and against his army.
19:20 And the beast was taken, and the false prophet that was with him, who wrought the signs before him by which he deceived them that received the mark of the beast, and those that worship his image. Alive were both cast into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone;
19:21 and the rest were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which goes out of his mouth; and all the birds were filled with their flesh.


And here some 1000 years after His coming:

20:5 the rest of the dead did not live till the thousand years had been completed. This is the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy he who has part in the first resurrection: over these the second death has no power; but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
20:7 And when the thousand years have been completed, Satan shall be loosed from his prison,
20:8 and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of the heaven and devoured them.

 

[Soon Rev 22:11-12]

1 Thess. 4 is not contrary to the fact that the "rapture" and 2nd coming are the same event. More on that later, as the thread may unfold.

Revelation 19 proves that mortals are all destroyed (if they are not made immortal in the rapture/resurrection - same event).

The people who are alive on earth who get burned in v.9 are these people from v. 5: the rest of the dead did not live till the thousand years had been completed.

 

[holdon]

Revelation 19 proves that mortals are all destroyed (if they are not made immortal in the rapture/resurrection - same event).

Whre is the rapture in Rev. 19???

The people who are alive on earth who get burned in v.9 are these people from v. 5: the rest of the dead did not live till the thousand years had been completed.

???Hellooo. 20:3 says that Satan is bound so as to not deceive the nations for a 1000 years. Which means that nations are present on earth during these 1000 years. Out of these nations comes the immense army led by Satan to make war, however, they are devoured by God's fire in 20:9.

 

[Soon Rev 22:11-12]

...says that Satan is bound so as to not deceive the nations...

It doesn't say, "so as."

All unsaved mortals are destroyed at the 2nd coming, as Jesus clearly indicated over and over. See the latter half of Luke 17, for example.

The word for "bottomless pit" in the original Greek is "abussos," or abyss. That same word is used in the Greek Old Testament in Genesis 1:2 in connection with the creation of the earth, but there it is translated "deep." The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep." How interesting! The words "deep," "bottomless pit," and "abyss" here refer to the same thing - the earth in its totally dark, disorganized form before God made order of it. Jeremiah, in describing this earth during the 1,000 years, used virtually the same terms as these in Genesis 1:2: "without form and void," "no light," "no man," 'black." Jeremiah 4:23, 25, 28. So the battered, dark earth with no people alive will be called the bottomless pit, or abyss, during the 1,000 years just as it was in the beginning before Creation was completed. Isaiah 24:22 also speaks of Satan and his angels during the 1,000 years as "gathered in the pit" and "shut up in the prison."

The chain is symbolic - a chain of circumstances. A spirit being cannot be confined with a literal chain. Satan is "tied down" because he has no people to deceive. The wicked are all dead and the righteous are all in heaven. The Lord confines the devil to this earth so he cannot roam the universe hoping to find someone to deceive. Forcing the devil to stay on the earth, alone with his demons for a thousand years with no one to deceive, will be for him the most galling chain ever forged.

REVIEW THE EVENTS OCCURRING AT THE BEGINNING OF THE 1,000 YEARS:
Devastating earthquake and hailstorm (Revelation 16:18-21; Revelation 6:14-17).
Second coming of Jesus for His saints (Matthew 24:30, 31).
Righteous dead raised to life (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17).
Righteous given immortality (1 Corinthians 15:51-55).
Righteous given bodies like Jesus (1 John 3:2; Philippians 3:21).
All righteous caught up into the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17).
Living wicked slain by the breath of the Lord's mouth (Isaiah 11:4), destroyed by the brightness of His coming (2 Thess 2:8), cast away (Matt 13:48), destroyed (Luke 17:29), slain with the sword (Rev 19:21), damned (2 Thess 2:12).
Wicked in graves remain dead until the end of the 1,000 years (Revelation 20:5).
Jesus takes righteous to heaven (John 13:33, 36; 14:1-3).
Satan bound (Revelation 20:1-3).

 

[Soon Rev 22:11-12]

Living wicked slain by the breath of the Lord's mouth (Isaiah 11:4),

4 but with righteousness he will judge the needy,
with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth.
He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth;
with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked.

destroyed by the brightness of His coming (2 Thess 2:8),

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

cast away (Matt 13:48),

48 and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away. 49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,

destroyed (Luke 17:29),


29 but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 "It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.

slain with the sword (Rev 19:21),

21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

damned (2 Thess 2:12).

8... brightness of his coming...12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[holdon]

It doesn't say, "so as."

Here is the Word of God:

20:2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 20:3 and cast him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, that he should not any more deceive the nations until the thousand years were completed

All unsaved mortals are destroyed at the 2nd coming, as Jesus clearly indicated over and over. See the latter half of Luke 17, for example.

????

17:34 I say to you, In that night there shall be two men upon one bed; one shall be seized and the other shall be let go.17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be seized and the other shall be let go. 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be seized and the other let go.

The word for "bottomless pit" in the original Greek is "abussos," or abyss. That same word is used in the Greek Old Testament in Genesis 1:2 in connection with the creation of the earth, but there it is translated "deep." The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep." How interesting! The words "deep," "bottomless pit," and "abyss" here refer to the same thing - the earth in its totally dark, disorganized form before God made order of it. Jeremiah, in describing this earth during the 1,000 years, used virtually the same terms as these in Genesis 1:2: "without form and void," "no light," "no man," 'black." Jeremiah 4:23, 25, 28. So the battered, dark earth with no people alive will be called the bottomless pit, or abyss, during the 1,000 years just as it was in the beginning before Creation was completed. Isaiah 24:22 also speaks of Satan and his angels during the 1,000 years as "gathered in the pit" and "shut up in the prison."

The chain is symbolic - a chain of circumstances. A spirit being cannot be confined with a literal chain. Satan is "tied down" because he has no people to deceive. The wicked are all dead and the righteous are all in heaven. The Lord confines the devil to this earth so he cannot roam the universe hoping to find someone to deceive. Forcing the devil to stay on the earth, alone with his demons for a thousand years with no one to deceive, will be for him the most galling chain ever forged.

REVIEW THE EVENTS OCCURRING AT THE BEGINNING OF THE 1,000 YEARS:
Devastating earthquake and hailstorm (Revelation 16:18-21; Revelation 6:14-17).
Second coming of Jesus for His saints (Matthew 24:30, 31).
Righteous dead raised to life (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17).
Righteous given immortality (1 Corinthians 15:51-55).
Righteous given bodies like Jesus (1 John 3:2; Philippians 3:21).
All righteous caught up into the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17).
Living wicked slain by the breath of the Lord's mouth (Isaiah 11:4), destroyed by the brightness of His coming (2 Thess 2:8), cast away (Matt 13:48), destroyed (Luke 17:29), slain with the sword (Rev 19:21), damned (2 Thess 2:12).
Wicked in graves remain dead until the end of the 1,000 years (Revelation 20:5).
Jesus takes righteous to heaven (John 13:33, 36; 14:1-3).
Satan bound (Revelation 20:1-3).

Here is Mt 25

25:31 But when the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit down upon his throne of glory, 25:32 and all the nations shall be gathered before him; and he shall separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 25:33 and he will set the sheep on his right hand, and the goats on his left. 25:34 Then shall the King say to those on his right hand, Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the world's foundation:
He comes (on earth) and sits on his throne of glory let's the righteous nations get into the kingdom. On earth.

 

[Soon Rev 22:11-12]

No, you don't. That scripture cannot be interpreted to do away with all the other verses I posted.

If you take Matt 25:31-35 literally, and you shouldn't, what happens to the goats? Do they survive in a mortal state? No!

41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." Why didn't you quote v. 41, which proves my point that there are no mortal survivors on Earth after the 2nd coming?

 

[holdon]

No, you don't. That scripture cannot be interpreted to do away with all the other verses I posted.

If you take Matt 25:31-35 literally, and you shouldn't, what happens to the goats? Do they survive in a mortal state? No!

41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." Why didn't you quote v. 41, which proves my point that there are no mortal survivors on Earth after the 2nd coming?

The goats are judged and removed. Compare the verses in Luke 17: they are the ones that shall be taken away. The sheep stay to enter the kingdom.

 

[lightninboy]

The pre-trib rapture is kind of hard to imagine.

Maybe it is misinterpreted.

 

[TruthSetsFree]

The pre-trib rapture is kind of hard to imagine.

Maybe it is misinterpreted.

I agree. For over 10 years I believed the rapture until I took a close look at the word of God. Now I think we're going to go through part of the tribulation and are probably already in it, yet IT IS ALL GOOD NEWS. There's no myth of being "left behind" in the bible. I hope I'm left behind because the bible says that the wicked will be raptured out of here and the righteous will remain who follow Jesus Christ their King who will return to the earth riding on a white horse for Judgement.

 

[IamAdopted]

Here is the scripture that Jesus talks of the raputre

1"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

When Christ comes at the glorious Appearance He sets His kingdom up on earth. This is also spoken of in Revelations when we see that the bride. Comes back with Him.

7

"Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready."
8It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

9Then he said to me, "Write, 'Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb '" And he said to me, "These are true words of God."
10Then I fell at his feet to worship him But he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.

 

[JerryShugart]

The pre-trib rapture is kind of hard to imagine.

Maybe it is misinterpreted.

It is not hard to imagine when one considers what Paul says about the event when the Christian will be "caught up".

For our citizenship is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body.… The Lord is at hand" (Phil.3:20,21;4:5).

The word “look” is translated from the Greek word “apekdechomai”, which means “assiduously and patiently to wait for” (“Thayer's Greek English Lexicon”).

Paul is telling believers to be constantly and unremittingly (assiduously) waiting for the Lord's return.

Paul says that “the Lord is at hand”. The Greek word translated “at hand” is “eggus”, and the meaning is “concerning things imminent and soon to come to pass” (“Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon”).

Paul tells the Christians that they should be looking for the Lord Jesus' appearing at any moment. That could not be in regard to His “coming” mentioned at Matthew 24:30:

“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory” (Mt.24:30).

Before this can happen there are many things which must precede His coming in the clouds of heaven. The “abomination of desolation” must first stand in the holy place (Mt.24:15) and the “great tribulation” must take place (Mt.24:21).

Therefore Paul would not be saying that His appearance could happen at any moment if certain things must happen before that appearance. That means that the "catching up" must precede all these prophesised events.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[JDS]

It is hard to imagine that the church of Jesus Christ, which is the pillar and ground of the truth, is so misinformed and ignorant about such fundamental and simple doctrines as the definition and explanation of the church. This after 2000 years of church history!

The doctrine of the church of Jesus Christ includes not only it's beginning but also its glorification at the rapture. It is the family of God and all that are born again of the Spirit of God (who was sent at pentecost in Acts 2 to form the church and will be taken with it at the rapture when it is complete, since the church is the habitation of the Spirit) have God as their Father and Jesus Christ as their brother. He is the firstborn in the family and we who are born again of the Spirit are all children. There were no children of God before the resurrection and there will be none added to this family after the rapture. It will be complete.

Fact
1) There is no OT saint, with the exception of Adam before the fall, that was ever called a son of God and Adam was the federal head of the earthly family.

Fact
2) All those who are born again are called the children of God and Christ is the federal head of this heavenly family.

This age is about the church and the expression of God's grace to humanity in granting the great privilege of forgiving our sins though we sure don't deserve it and giving us his Spirit to whosoever will accept him by faith in his word. No one will have this priviledge after the rapture though multitudes will be saved. The church is unique being presdestined to heavenly rewards as opposed to earthly rewards, like the house of Israel and other nations and peoples.

Consider these verses in connection with the firstborn Son of God.

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Notice that he is the firstborn and those of us who are born as sons later are predestined to be (future tense) conformed to his image. His image (as a our brother) is trinitarian, Soul, Spirit, Glorified Body. We will be glorified at the rapture when we recieve the new body, an event also called the adoption. Compare the following two verses.

Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption (when we were saved), whereby we (presently) cry, Abba, Father.

Ro 8:23 And not only [they] (the creature = the gentiles), but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit (The Jews had the first-fruits of the Spirit), even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body. (At the resurrection, read 1 Co 15)

But when did Jesus become the firstborn Son of God according to Scripture and can anyone be a son of God before the firstborn? Of course the answer is no to the last question.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

The answer to when he became the firstborn is at his resurrection. That is when he recieved his glorified body, was indwelt by the Spirit, and we see him in his physical person as a trinity such as we will be at our resurrection or transformation at the rapture.

For his divine and human trinity see this passage.

Ro 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

The Spirit of holiness is the Holy Spirit. He was the Son of David by the physical birth and the Son of God by the Spiritual birth.

These passages need much meditation.

20 For our conversation (Citizenship) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Yes, the church is God's family, entered into by the new birth, the formation of which is unique to this age! Glory to God for his wonderful grace to all of us!