Rapture Before Wrath

Rev20 said:

How do you know that the Revelation means hailstones of ice that weigh 100 pounds, and not 100 pound white stones?

Symbolism is used throughout the Revelation, beginning with angels being stars and churches being candlesticks, and migrating to a city being a woman (and a harlot,) and waters being nations of people. I may as well mention that the Lord is a lamb, Satan is a dragon, and his chief servant is a beast. Why believe that hail must be the cold, icy stuff?


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If you wish to think God will drop big stones, that is fine. Both will kill. However, there are many scriptures in the Old Testament where hail is also mentioned. I just tend to believe what I read. It seems every English translation I found calls it hail, not rock kind of stones. Same with the commentaries. Therefore I believe it will be real hail - yes, the cold, icy stuff.

LAMAD

Manasseh_ said:

you've just exposed another of the contradictions with the false pretrib teaching, first pretrib says Christs' return is imminent,ie, he could return at any time, but here you say a certain prophetic event must occur shortly after your "rapture" ie, the man of sin revealed, I've heard other pretribbers claim that the man of sin is revealed first then the rapture, you all can't even get your false doctrine agreed upon among yourselves much less prove your first assumption to begin with..........just another of the many ways pretrib misunderstands and mis-uses scripture, adding and taking away from God's word as it pleases and supposedly agrees with this lie passed off as truth...........when anyone reads the actual verses in question here, it says that Christ destroys this man of sin at his coming and there's nothing there to even imply that this happens in 2 parts/phases, one SINGLE return is the only thing taught..........again you have to ASSUME it's a 2 part return to believe and or teach this false doctrine

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I just follow and believe what the bible tells me, not what I hear or have heard in churches, or read in books about it. This is certainly NOT "mis-uses" scripture, it is understand the intent of the Author. The scripture never will contradict itself, as God will never contradict Himself.

Do you imagine he is revealed and destroyed at the same moment in time? What about his 42 months of authority? I don't believe in a "2 part return." He comes first FOR His bride, and returns to heaven. He comes 7 plus year later WITH His bride. In other words, He will return to earth TWICE MORE.

It is a fact, both post-trib and pre-trib use 2 Thes 2. How can this be? Simply because one group does not understand it. Of course anyone can just pull verse three out of its context and it does seem to say that the man of sin comes first. However, it is a mistake to take any verse out of its context. In the context, the man of sin CANNOT be revealed until the one restraining him is "taken out of the way." THEN He will be revealed. Several of the first translations into English said the man of sin cannot be revealed until the "departing." I understand that to be the rapture of the church being "taken out of the way." It makes a LOT of sense that it is the Holy Spirit working through the church that is preventing the man of sin from coming before his time.

Speaking of misusing scripture, what scripture do you use for your false POST-TRIB doctrine? I know: you ASSUME that Matthew 24 is talking about the rapture.

If you go back and really STUDY 1 Thes, 4 & 5, you will discover that the rapture comes as a SUDDEN event at a time of peace and safety, and becomes the TRIGGER for the Day of the Lord. And this fits perfectly with what John wrote in Revelation. The raptured church was seen in heaven (chapter 7) before John has even started the 70th week, much less arrived at the midpoint where Jesus said the days of GT would come.

So who really misuses scripture. Our goal should be to understand the intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit.

LAMAD

CryOfALion said:

When you think of the entire position of the rapture - not even how it is not biblically explicitly outlined or mentioned - when you look at what it is for, or represents, then you see how disrespectful and even shameful of a doctrine it can be, and how much of a slap in the face it can be to those of faith.

The rapture claims that, despite all of humanity's sin (one sin = death,) somehow a group of believers will be carried off planet, dimension or Terra because they are considered worthy to escape. This is curiously part of a super secret interim advent Christ never spoke about. Then, everyone else - no matter a later transformation to God - suffers His wrath, and is left behind. Supposedly, those left behind will see calamity so bad not even Noah saw, and judgment of God is fair for them. No Christian is supposed to go through those hard times.

The truth is besides nowhere in the bible suggesting a 3rd or 4th advent of Christ, and besides the fact that a 19th century woman had a self-proclaimed demonic dream about people sucking up into clouds had her dream exploited for church politics and attendance, we all deserve judgment. The rapture doctrine suggest that despite the fact that belief in Christ saves, and He will do this completely at Resurrection, somehow a group of people are "high up" enough to get their resurrection early - without formally facing death as appointed to all men - and they get to watch everyone else go through God's wrath. There are too many people who are being persecuted and tried for their faith this day. Just because "tribulation" is not intense where one lives does not mean it is not here. Tribulation is tribulation, and I really don't know where the idea of a "Antichrist Era specific" tribulation came to be. Daniel's 70 weeks have already happened; the last week is not some 2000+ year gap: the covenant made with many was the ministry of the new covenant Christmas preached. It was roughly seven years between when John baptism Him, and when He resurrected.

I believe the rapture is a pseudo message of hope. Hope is in God, not a supposed event that removes you from danger. And, if it doesn't happen, the damage will be catastrophic to many people - when they realize they will have to go through being a witness to God's wrath just like Noah, just like Lot and Abraham, just like Moses and the slaves, and so on. In reality, the hope in such a horrible time should come from the fact that God protects His people and does not leave them without a way out - like He did for Moses and the slaves, Noah, Lot and Abraham, etc. We should know enough about God's character to know that He doesn't usually just fly people out of danger (especially if they brought it upon themselves.) God will give the people a bunch of His qualities to push through and OVERCOME as a WITNESS of His character. I have something against the rapture doctrine; I believe it for at least 10 years as a Christian, and I really had to stop and think about it vs. What the Bible says. Then, I learned the origin of the theory. This is not a healthy doctrine; our focus shouldn't be on escaping anyway. And, there is no evidence of a rapture ever happening besides stretched remote verses, and etymological gymnastics.

Even though I don't believe me or my family will be taken away if we happen to be in the absolute last bit of time with the Abominable One, I find peace that God will keep me for as long as He wants, and I will be a witness of the events of that age, and of His complete character. Then, if I am found worthy to be resurrected, I can take that testimony along with me in the next life during the reign of Christ. Same with every other believer. To people who believe the rapture will happen, this seems like a worst case scenario - to be left behind at all, even as a witness.

As an aside, please look into the history and construction of Revelation, specifically explanations concerning it's canonical status in the past, it almost over the top use of literary devices, and the wording compared to what OT books say on the same subject. For example, Daniel makes no mention of a numerator amount of selected people who will be especially preserved (the 144,000.) Daniel simply says the "wise one" in reference to believers in the end (and yes, it is talking about the end, because 1335 days after the Abominable One/Antichrist is revealed the end comes, and those who endured will be given life. Daniel mirrors the resurrection event, and yet no mention of 12 groups of 12,000. There is not even mention of two "great" witnesses. It has been said many times the numbers were not originally part of the text of revelation: 2 witnesses, or the 144,000...12,000 from the 12 tribes.

It would be a shame for millions of believers to falter in faith because they were not caught up in a rapture, when there was none to begin with. Paul and the early Christians knew of a resurrection, but not an interim taking. The references to the last trump, the wise virgins with oil, a diligent watchman all point to one event.

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Why don't you just believe the BIBLE? Did you ever read Luke 21:36? It speaks of being WORTHY to escape what is coming.

Did you ever read John 14? Do you imagine Jesus has spent the last 2000 years preparing places (mansions, palaces) for us in heaven, only to never take us there? The truth is, John 14 and 1 Thes 4:17 are sister passages. Jesus comes FOR His bride and takes us to heaven - to the places prepared for us. It is the typical Jewish wedding.

If one really believes what John wrote, it is impossible for anyone to get to the marriage and supper in heaven, in a posttrib rapture scenario. That is one reason why God is PRETRIB; He will take His own bride to the marriage and supper.

It is certainly not "shameful" that God has chosen to remove His bride from the earth before He pours out His wrath. He has NO REASON to punish His own bride! The judgment is for the SINNER.

"Tribulation is tribulation" NO, it is not! Jesus TOLD US when the days of GT that HE spoke of will begin: at the abomination which will divide the 70th week - which you consider past, but is really FUTURE. Then, AFTER the abomination, the antichrist BEast of Rev. 13 will erect an image and force all to worship this image or lose their head. Along with the image will be a MARK of the image. Again, all who refuse the mark will lose their head. I do hope you have read REvelation 13?

LAMAD

bibletruth469 said:

I strongly believe that any believer who is truly saved are the ones worthy to escape all these things. We are commanded in other words, that to pray that we are really saved and are considered worthy in the sense of being saved, not that we are worthy as in trusting our own selves. No one is worthy without Christ! All believers that are truly saved will escape at the rapture, not the professing ones that think they are saved. My prayer is for people not to be deceived thinking that they are saved when they really are not . I pray that people will pray that they are worthy to escape all these things because they will pray for true salvation for themselves .

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You may strongly believe that...BUT...what did the apostles escape? Why is it the Peter tells Christians in 1 Peter 2:21;
21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,

Frankly this idea of escaping anything is not biblical! James tells us of "the trial of our faith, Paul tells us if we live Godly in Christ we will suffer persecution...and it goes on and on.

The ONLY wrath Christians will escape is God's wrath that sends unbelievers to eternal separation in hell. That is God's ultimate wrath.

In America, we still have freedom of religion (to a degree) because nowadays Christianity is being viewed as a hinderance, but in many countries Christian are IN THE FIRE!

The best thing we can do is "endure to the end" and Christ promised to be with us in WHATEVER we suffer for His name.

Bible2 said:

Note that Matthew 24:30 refers only to unsaved people, who will be left on the ground, mourning at Jesus' 2nd coming, not to saved people, who will be raptured (gathered together) into the sky (the 1st heaven) at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven (Mark 13:27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1). Also, Matthew 24:30 isn't (as is sometimes claimed) referring only to unsaved Jews mourning, but to all unsaved people of all tribes (or kindreds) of the earth. For Matthew 24:30 means that everyone on the earth will see Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 1:7). The same Greek word translated as "tribes" in Matthew 24:30 is translated as "kindreds" in Revelation 1:7.

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Mourning in matt24:30 state all will mourn: tribulation saints, unsaved even the 144,000 will mourn but as the church goes we are with Christ 7 year party in heaven before the marriage

Some states that we will be there during the trib
Others state only the good Christians will be raptures
Yet it's GOD who gives mercy or who he hardens
One for glory another for destruction Romans 9

Note that the happy, or blessed, hope (Titus 2:13) is the hope of eternal life: "In hope of eternal life" (Titus 1:2), "that blessed hope" (Titus 2:13), "the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:7), by which is meant the hope of obtaining an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Also, Jesus himself is the hope of believers (1 Timothy 1:1b), for he himself is eternal life (John 14:6), and only by believing in him can people have eternal life (John 3:36).
[\QUOTE]
Eternal life to the Jews was a promise after their resurrection according to Dan 12:1-13....

No Christians are hoping for the tribulation instead of Jesus' 2nd coming, even though those Christians who (rightly) hold to the post-tribulation rapture view know that the tribulation must come first (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13). For a Christian (whether male or female) who holds to the post-tribulation rapture view is like a pregnant woman nearing the end of her term. She isn't hoping for birthing pains instead of the birth of her child, but she knows that birthing pains must come first (John 16:21-22, Isaiah 26:17-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23).
[\QUOTE] taking neighbors bills and checks and claiming for your own .... Very dangerous for your Christian life in practice right now

Note that on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

The New Covenant is a new law (Hebrews 7:12,18,19, Hebrews 10:1-23), consisting of Jesus' New Covenant/New Testament commandments (John 14:15), such as those he gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29) and in the epistles of Paul the apostle (1 Corinthians 14:37). These commandments exceed in righteousness the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48). So there is no reason why any believer should ever want to go back under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). It was just a temporary schoolmaster (Galatians 3:24-25), a temporary shadow (Colossians 2:16-17), which God set up because of sins long after he had set up the original promise of the Abrahamic Covenant, and long before he brought that promise to fulfillment in Jesus' New Covenant (Galatians 3:16-29, Matthew 26:28).

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I could rip this apart but why the law will come back more stricter with different priest in the 1000 yr regein of Christ example ... Matt 5:27-32

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iamlamad said:

The raptured church was seen in heaven (chapter 7) before John has even started the 70th week, much less arrived at the midpoint where Jesus said the days of GT would come.

LAMAD

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What John saw in revelation chapter 7 -These are they which came out of (the)Great Tribulation- .Simply put John saw the souls of those who will be put to death (the beheaded) during the future Great Tribulation .This is a parenthesis ( )

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+7&version=KJV

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
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13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Now a simple analysis of Rev 7:14 .... if the multitude of all nations that John saw in the vision Came Out of (the) Great Tribulation as the Bible clearly state ...they cannot have been rapture before the great tribulation.

iamlamad said:

I just follow and believe what the bible tells me, not what I hear or have heard in churches, or read in books about it. This is certainly NOT "mis-uses" scripture, it is understand the intent of the Author. The scripture never will contradict itself, as God will never contradict Himself.

Do you imagine he is revealed and destroyed at the same moment in time? What about his 42 months of authority? I don't believe in a "2 part return." He comes first FOR His bride, and returns to heaven. He comes 7 plus year later WITH His bride. In other words, He will return to earth TWICE MORE.


LAMAD

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it's already a given that scripture doesn't contradict itself, the contradiction is in your false pretrib doctrine as I pointed out.......... it certainly is clear by now according to your responses that when you hit a road block you just ignore the direct question and at the same time create even more contradictions for yourself, so we add yet another contradiction here since you say you don't believe in a 2 part return then state that Christ does come "TWICE MORE"............your false doctrine is like the parable of the man that built his house on sand........your false doctrine just comes crumbling down with your very own words

IIThess.2:10 This "wrath" is the unrighteousness already described in v.4, which opposes self and exalts self against everyone called God, or against what is sacred, to the extent of sitting in God's own sanctuary (central complex in the Temple building) and showing off as God. This is the pinnicale of all unrighteousness which is santanic in the highest degree exponentially and successfully only in connection with proportionate deceit.

btw the "hypergrace" of today purports there is no wrath today, ie, all grace and mercy.....deception here for sure.

There is a balance of our Lord's righteous wrath and justice with His righteous mercy and grace...we should not remove the "wrath" and "justice" part out of the equation for economical reason....bring your money and land to the church and guaranteed a ticket to heaven upon one's passing...I don't think so.

If our Lord casting down "delusions" from heaven does not come under His righteous "wrath" and "mercy," what topic would we place it under?

Old Jack's opinion

Isaiah Jeremiah said:

So 1/3 of the world's population will be destroy in the future by catapults? No doubt, you're just willing to say anything to make your case.

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Where does it say 1/3rd of the world's population will be destroyed?


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Rev20 said:

Where does it say 1/3rd of the world's population will be destroyed?


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It's common knowledge in the bible. If you didn't know that, what makes you think your theology is accurate and the truth?

iamlamad said in post 643:

He comes first FOR His bride . . .

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Note that Jesus' coming FOR his bride and WITH his bride will occur at the same 2nd coming. For 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth and their physical bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the 1st heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be right above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It is because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).

iamlamad said in post 643:

He comes 7 plus year later WITH His bride.

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Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That is why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the physical resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there is a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church, he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be physically resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

iamlamad said in post 643:

If you go back and really STUDY 1 Thes, 4 & 5, you will discover that the rapture comes as a SUDDEN event at a time of peace and safety . . .

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1 Thessalonians 5:3 could include reference to when, near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at the 2 witnesses' death at the legal end of the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:8,15, Revelation 13:5-18), the unsaved world will rejoice and make merry because it will then be free from the tormenting plagues from the 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:10,6). But little will the unsaved world realize that the plagues of the 7 vials of God's judgment and wrath will then be poured out upon it (Revelation 16). And then Jesus will return and bring the 2nd-coming judgment and wrath of God (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3).

The unsaved people of the world will have no idea that most of them are going to be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming until it happens (Matthew 24:37-39). For they could think that the 2nd coming had already occurred with the coming into power of the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20), who could claim to be Jesus returned. And just as the people of the world shortly before Noah's flood, even though they could see or hear about Noah building his huge ark, no doubt rejected the idea that YHWH God had the power to actually cause a global flood which would kill them, so the people of the world at the end of the future tribulation could reject the idea that YHWH has the power to actually defeat them.

For during the tribulation's 2nd half, the world will see the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and his fallen angels (Revelation 12:9), and the power Lucifer will give to the Antichrist to take over the entire earth (Revelation 13:4-8), and to utterly revile YHWH year after year without being destroyed (Revelation 13:5-6, Daniel 11:36), and to physically overcome and kill people in the church in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). And the world will see the amazing miraculous powers which Lucifer will give to the Antichrist's False Prophet, by which he will be able to even call fire down from heaven in the sight of everyone (Revelation 13:13, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

And near the end of the future tribulation, the world will see the Antichrist's defeat of YHWH's amazingly-powerful 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3-9), after which defeat the world will rejoice and make merry and send gifts to each other because the 2 witnesses had been sending plagues on the world (Revelation 11:10,6). And even though those plagues will be shortly followed by even more plagues from YHWH, poured out directly from heaven (Revelation 16, the tribulation's final stage), the people of the world won't lose their confidence that YHWH can still be defeated. For after almost all of the plagues from heaven are over, the world will see the amazing miraculous powers of some unclean spirits, convincing the world's armies to gather together for a battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:13-14, Revelation 19:19). And so the world could come to that battle at the very end of the tribulation with the same careless attitude as some people at the start of the American Civil War, who held picnics at the expected first battleground of Bull Run/Manassas to watch the battle and what they expected to be a quick and easy victory.

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iamlamad said in post 644:

Did you ever read John 14?

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Note that there is no pre-tribulation idea in John 14:3, just as there is no "take you back" (somewhere). Instead, there is only a coming again of Jesus (i.e. his 2nd coming), and then a receiving of the church unto himself. Also, the pre-tribulation rapture view can't claim that the rapture is referred to only by Paul, and then admit that John 14:3 refers to the rapture.

John 14:2 means that one of the reasons that Jesus left was to prepare a place for the church in the literal city of New Jerusalem, God the Father's house in heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). John 14:3 means that Jesus' leaving to prepare a place for the church means that he is not done with the church, but will come back to it. John 14:3 means that the church will be received to Jesus where he will be first at his 2nd coming, which will be in the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:17), before he lands on the earth at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:30-31, Zechariah 14:3-21), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

The church will live in its place in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:24 to 22:5) on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3) sometime after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15). For during the millennium, the physically resurrected church will be ruling on the present earth with the returned Jesus (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Also, the church has already come to God the Father's house, New Jerusalem, which is currently in heaven, in the spiritual sense of coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26, Matthew 26:28). Also, the souls of obedient people in the church go to God the Father's house when they die, for their still-conscious souls go into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And they go into paradise (Luke 23:43), which is in heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b,4), in the city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 2:7 and Revelation 22:2).

iamlamad said in post 644:

If one really believes what John wrote, it is impossible for anyone to get to the marriage and supper in heaven, in a posttrib rapture scenario.

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Actually, it isn't, because in Revelation 19:7, the church is in the 1st heaven, the sky, for the wedding, and it got there at the post-tribulation rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31).

For the 10-virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the (never fulfilled) tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated by Jesus' at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Also, regarding the 10-virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6 "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' 2nd coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

Bro in Christ said in post 647:

Mourning in matt24:30 state all will mourn: tribulation saints, unsaved even the 144,000 will mourn . . .

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Regarding "tribulation saints", note that Jesus spoke specifically of his "church" (Matthew 16:18, Matthew 18:17) before he spoke Matthew 24. And Matthew 24 refers to the future tribulation, by which time the church will have existed for some 2,000 years. The saints who will be in the tribulation will be the church, for they will be believers in Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 7:9,14, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Those in the church who will be in the tribulation could include most of the believers alive today (whether Jewish or Gentile), for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31).

Also, Matthew 24 was addressed privately only to believers (Matthew 24:3,4,9), and in Jesus' mind all believers of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-6). The entire book of Revelation was likewise addressed only to believers (Revelation 1:1-4, Revelation 22:16). Just as the (mistaken) pre-tribulation rapture view admits that, for example, John 14, Matthew 24's parallel chapter of Luke 21, and Matthew 28 can apply to those in the church today (e.g. Luke 21:36, John 14:3, Matthew 28:18-19), so the pre-tribulation rapture view should be able to admit that Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can apply to those in the church today.

Matthew 24:9-13 refers to the future killing of Christians, whether genetic Jews or Gentiles, those who will be hated and killed for the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9) in every nation during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Matthew 24:9-13 shows that not all Christians will continue to love Jesus during that time, but some Christians' love for him will grow cold because of their unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), and/or because they will become offended (Matthew 24:10) that he is letting them and their little ones suffer in the tribulation (Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22; 1 Peter 4:12-13). Only those Christians who continue to love Jesus to the end will be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13, Matthew 10:37-39).

Bro in Christ said in post 647:

Mourning in matt24:30 state all will mourn: tribulation saints, unsaved even the 144,000 will mourn . . .

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Regarding the 144,000, note that they will all be Christians (Revelation 14:1,4), and so they will all be part of the church (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6). They will be the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). They will be male virgins (Revelation 14:4), who could all have been born in the 20th or 21st century, and who could all already be part of the church. For they will all be alive on the earth, and will all already be God's servants (Revelation 7:3; cf. Romans 6:22, Philippians 1:1), by the time of Revelation 7:3-8, during the first stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will have entered the tribulation along with the rest of the church alive at that time, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Also, the 144,000, who are of the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 7:4-8), can include both Jews and Gentiles in the church. For all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the 144,000's twelve tribes (Revelation 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Numbers 1:32, Psalms 78:67, Ezekiel 37:16b,19) because the Israel they are from isn't genetic Israel with its 12 genetic tribes which include Dan (Genesis 49:28,17), but rather spiritual Israel (Romans 9:6-8), which consists of all the elect (Romans 9:11-13), both elect Jews and elect Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

Bro in Christ said in post 647:

... Matt 5:27-32

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Jesus shows in the Sermon on the Mount how his New Covenant, Christian commandments are stricter than the letter of the commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade murder (Matthew 5:21, Exodus 20:13), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids even calling people names (Matthew 5:22). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade adultery (Matthew 5:27, Exodus 20:14), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids even looking at another woman with lust (Matthew 5:28). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law permitted divorce and remarriage (Matthew 5:31, Deuteronomy 24:1-2), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids it (Matthew 5:32, Mark 10:11-12, Luke 16:18), except for a single exemption granted only to husbands who discover that their newlywed wife isn't a virgin, but had committed fornication (Matthew 19:9).

Jesus also shows in the Sermon on the Mount that while his New Covenant, Christian law is stricter than the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, at the same time it is also more merciful. For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required taking an eye for an eye (Matthew 5:38, Deuteronomy 19:21), while Jesus' New Covenant law requires turning the other cheek (Matthew 5:39). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required hatred for one's enemies (Matthew 5:43, Deuteronomy 23:6), while Jesus' New Covenant law requires love for one's enemies (Matthew 5:44). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, the ministration of death (2 Corinthians 3:7), required, for example, that adulterers be put to death (Leviticus 20:10), while Jesus showed mercy to the woman caught in adultery (John 8:4-11). And, for another example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required that anyone who does any work on the sabbath is to be put to death (Exodus 31:14, Numbers 15:32-36), while Jesus allowed his disciples to work on the sabbath and said that they were guiltless (Matthew 12:1-8), just as Jesus himself worked on the sabbath (John 5:17-18).

So in obeying Jesus' New Covenant commandments (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29, John 14:15; 1 Corinthians 14:37), believers, whether Jews or Gentiles, are both more merciful and loving, and also exceed in righteousness those who try to keep the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19).

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah were so also the coming of the son of man be.

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition


We are in the time of the great falling away. The only thing we lack is the revealing of the AntiChrist.

rockytopva said:

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah were so also the coming of the son of man be.

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition


We are in the time of the great falling away. The only thing we lack is the revealing of the AntiChrist.

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Antichrist revealed centureis ago.

Great, we are at the very end of the great falling away where Satan is about to be personally be loosed.....on the other hand, not so great my brother.

Old Jack's opinion

rockytopva said:

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah were so also the coming of the son of man be.

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition


We are in the time of the great falling away. The only thing we lack is the revealing of the AntiChrist.

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You are right: something must happen FIRST. Truthfully, the time of a great "catching away" is rapidly approaching. Readers, are you READY? Once the one restraining is "taken out of the way" the HOLY SPIRIT working through the church, THEN the man of sin will be revealed.

LAMAD

A new video is being produced which shows the true origin of the pretrib doctrine that many of us have been writing about for some time now.

Kirk Cameron, star of some of the "Left Behind" movies has now seen the truth and has come over to our side of the argument.

The trailer for the soon to be released video, is found in the link below.

Get ready for the sound of wailing and gnashing of teeth from the opposition.


Left Behind or Led Astray

Left Behind or Led Astray? Examining the Origins of the Secret Pre-Tribulation Rapture

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BABerean2 said:

A new video is being produced which shows the true origin of the pretrib doctrine that many of us have been writing about for some time now.

Kirk Cameron, star of some of the "Left Behind" movies has now seen the truth and has come over to our side of the argument.

The trailer for the soon to be released video, is found in the link below.

Get ready for the sound of wailing and gnashing of teeth from the opposition.


Left Behind or Led Astray

Left Behind or Led Astray? Examining the Origins of the Secret Pre-Tribulation Rapture

.

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What is it you have written?

All you do is post other's work and decry the same fraud's out there that many Dispensationalists see as fraud's - Hunt, Van Impe, Jeffrey, et al...

rockytopva said in post 655:

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

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Note that Matthew 24:44, like Matthew 24:36,42, refers to Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:37,42,44), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). So in Matthew 24:42,44, Jesus can mean that only if believers don't watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the tribulation, the 2nd coming will happen at an hour they don't know/think not (cf. the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). In the context of Matthew 24:36,42,44, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4).

Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36); he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it is possible that at a certain point in our future, some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of the 2nd coming before it happens. Also, if we mistakenly think that Jesus can come today or tomorrow (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-tribulation and preterist views), then how can we also claim that he will come when nobody thinks he will (Matthew 24:44)?

Also, compare the following: "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), "the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Corinthians 2:11). If we claim that the first verse means that no man will ever know the date of the 2nd coming until it happens, then to be consistent we would have to also claim that the second verse means that no man, not even believers, can know the things of God until the 2nd coming. But who would say that? For the Holy Spirit can currently reveal to believers the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:12-13). He can currently guide them into all truth and show them what will happen in the future (John 16:13), including the date of the 2nd coming. For, again, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the 2nd coming: Surely God the Father won't send Jesus back without having first revealed to some believers the secret of the date of the 2nd coming.

Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

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