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Featured Randomness. Chance. Predestination.

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by Mark Quayle, Nov 16, 2019.

  1. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If randomness is predictable, is it not therefore not random after all? If one can say, "That is not random, because randomness does not act that way", is one not then predicting how random behaves? Randomness seems to have taken on some sort of character, then, a personality, or direction of behavior.

    It is hard for me to discuss "free will", without defining the terms being discussed. In the question of "free will" vs "predestination" (as if they were in opposition, from God's point of view) to ascribe free will to mere creatures, is to give them a whole range from actual choice to absolute sovereignty. In my spectrum, it can only mean actual choice. True choice. Choice with absolute results, even in eternity. It cannot mean choice with no input, i.e. no cause, from the Creator. God did not create randomness nor chance, logical foolishness.

    Not many argue that we are not influenced from without, nor from within (at least genetically), and many who argue free will, (unbelievers, mostly), will happily admit they are thrown this way and that by their passions and desires. Why then the term, "free will"? I keep seeing this theme repeated within Christian debate. When the debate is rolling, the term becomes "choice", as if that is what is being argued. No, predestination, even absolute predestination, does not imply robotics. To my mind, to say it does is to imply that God operates within our ability to understand, or worse, that he is bound by the same principles that bind us, and must succumb to our meanings for words.

    Because that is my point for this post. In the end, God must be understood to operate not only on a whole different level from us, but as a whole different kind of being from his creation. (It is HE who invented logic and reason and math. It is HE who created time, even cause-and-effect that is absolute in our economy, sequence, matter and energy, and defines spirit, love, good, and so on. It is HE who personifies existence; it gains its definition from him, he is not defined by it. He is not subject to the concepts we garner from such words).

    If I say that logically, for him to foreknow is to forecause, since he is not bound by time, and so that he can (and has) spoken into existence the whole of Creation that we see as a timeline, having begun with nothing at the beginning and ending with Heaven and and Perdition, can you show otherwise? Even Jesus saying "it is finished" at the cross, and not before, does not prove me wrong there. In fact it supports the notion. We see time, but he sees edict.

    He is not like us. He absolutely does predestine.
     
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  2. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Okay as long as the ideas involved do not contradict free will or any other part of God's Word.
     
  3. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If I have my own choice and control of things, my free willing can isolate me with myself, and then I can be wondering why I am so lonely and bored. Plus, when I do make choices about what others do with me, I can be depending on what others choose; so, therefore, I am not really so in control. And depending on other people can be merely in order to use people, watching out mainly for my own self.
     
  4. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    excerpt from "The Spiritual Man" by W.Nee

    "How this indeed is the "narrow gate" and the hard way! It is narrow and hard because God’s will must be the standard for each footstep. It has but one rule: make no provision for self. The least deviation from this rule shall take man out of the way.

    Nevertheless it is not impossible, for as the soul life is lost by its habits, tastes, desires and longings being gradually broken, there shall remain no more resistance to the Lord.

    How lamentable that so many Christians have never passed through this gate and walked along this path; while others may have entered, yet do not patiently walk thereafter.

    Regardless how long or how short that difficult period may be, this alone is the way of life. This is God’s gate and God’s way. It is true and secure. Anyone who esteems the abundant life must become its pedestrian."
     
  5. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

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    God brought someone into my life who taught me to pray at age five. My sister, age seven, had the same opportunity and wasn't interested. Why?
     
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  6. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Perhaps a clear demonstration by Yahuweh of His Graciousness towards you, and to your sister, and His not coercing anyone to do His Bidding - letting everyone CHOOSE what they do, who they will serve.
     
  7. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

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    God enables what we cannot do ourselves. He changes our selfish wills, Hallelujah! I didn't choose to run from Satan because I didn't know that Satan exists having spent my life with unbelievers. Choice involves knowing what the choices mean.

    Romans 9:16
    It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2019
  8. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Define "Free Will" as you mean it here. And be thorough as to implications, please. Some think it means simply "choice", and that as such it implicitly denies predestination.
     
  9. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    God takes every person on the path he has chosen for them. He does this for his own sake. Your sister may well learn something that you never will, concerning God, and this for her own good. Yet it remains for God's own sake, and for the praise of his glory.
     
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  10. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Free will neither defines nor denies predestination, all though those with free will can and have defined predestination whether rightly or wrongly, whether by faith or not.

    The implications of free will are (or include) that many religious folk and religions (sects and/or doctrines and/or teachings and/or beliefs) are undone by it.
     
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  11. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

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    I agree with the reformed view. But my sister is deceased.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  12. Deade

    Deade Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Very good subject Mark. Predestination is something very real but most of us do not understand just how it works. God puts choices in front of us and, being outside of time constraints, knows what we will choose.

    How we wrap our minds around this, all-knowing of the future, remains difficult for our finite brains. But I know God loves us with a perfect love. He also knows when the best time is to call someone, or not.

    Phoebe's sister may yet be called when her time is best for her. I believe most people will be called during God's Great White Throne Judgment. Unless you think God is losing the war on saving souls, most people are not called in this first life. God knows when everyone's best chance of overcoming lies, and when.


    5thumbsup.gif
     
  13. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Sorry to hear that. I hope she met him before it was too late. You never know. God can do anything he wants to do, without our knowledge.
     
  14. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There are things the Bible tells us that give us more knowledge than we are willing to accept or acknowledge. Hard things, and things too wonderful for us. God has told us what he made us for --the Bride of Christ. It is for this that he has created, for his own glory. A people for himself.

    I cannot stomach the idea that he would depend on chance to build his church. I can't see him choosing souls from a pool of possibles. No, he made each of us exactly according to his specs, for the raw materials to each part he planned.

    This life is not for this life.
     
  15. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    Of course. God says his people did things that never entered his mind. I believe that over your theories. Perhaps God operates in a way no one has ever thought of yet. But he makes clear in the Bible that libertarian Free Will exists.
     
  16. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

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    Where's your proof? None of us can surprise God.
     
  17. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    Jeremiah 19:5
     
  18. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

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    Thank you.

    God knows everything (1 John 3:20). He knows not only the minutest details of our lives but those of everything around us, for He mentions even knowing when a sparrow falls or when we lose a single hair (Matthew 10:29-30). Not only does God know everything that will occur until the end of history itself (Isaiah 46:9-10), but He also knows our very thoughts, even before we speak forth (Psalm 139:4). He knows our hearts from afar; He even saw us in the womb (Psalm 139:1-3, 15-16). Solomon expresses this truth perfectly when he says, “For you, you only, know the hearts of all the children of mankind” (1 Kings 8:39).
    What does it mean that God is omniscient? | GotQuestions.org

    Perhaps it wasn't that He didn't know Jeremiah 19:5 but that it was never His plan.
     
  19. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    I don't disagree, but I was replying to this:
    "If I say that logically, for him to foreknow is to forecause, since he is not bound by time, and so that he can (and has) spoken into existence the whole of Creation that we see as a timeline, having begun with nothing at the beginning and ending with Heaven and and Perdition, can you show otherwise?"

    For God to know is not the same as God causing, as God clearly says in the Jeremiah verse and others. It was not his plan for his people to do the evil they did.
     
  20. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

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    He obviously didn't plan for every sinner to be saved.

    John 8
    21 Then said Jesus again unto them (the Pharisees), I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come. 22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come. 23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
     
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