Random or Conditional

[guuila]

My view has a logical, just, fair reason for whom God is saves and your view has this unknowable (reason/cause/condition) internal to God himself for saving some.

Yes, because you have decided that it's only "fair" as long as you do your part. God would be unfair to infallibly bring you to saving faith by his own decree, because that would require intruding on your free will. In your view, it would also be unfair for God to not give someone a "chance" to be saved. By the way, how does the fact that people die having never heard the Gospel message square with all your presuppositions? Doesn't that make God unfair?

Are you seriously saying that if God saves according to his own good pleasure and decree that makes him unfair? Does God really have to run all his decisions by you? Have you not read the book of Job? God put Job in his place for the very attitude you have sir!

“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
Who determined its measurements—surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
when the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
(Job 38:4-7 ESV)

 

[bling]

Yes, because you have decided that it's only "fair" as long as you do your part. God would be unfair to infallibly bring you to saving faith by his own decree, because that would require intruding on your free will. In your view, it would also be unfair for God to not give someone a "chance" to be saved. By the way, how does the fact that people die having never heard the Gospel message square with all your presuppositions? Doesn't that make God unfair?

It is not the “intruding” on my free will that makes it “unfair” it is the not intruding on everyone’s free will the same saving way, which makes it “unfair”. It is not that we “do” something, but it is our allowing God to do something with us.

There are good excellent logical reasons why some people will never mature enough (babies and mentally challenged) to ever hear the “Good News of Christ”. From my understanding of God’s Love and sin, these people are in a “save” condition, not needing to be “saved”, but they also have not fulfilled their main earthly objective of obtaining Godly type Love. They would then enter heaven (Like a Lazarus, in the rich man and Lazarus) with only a strong child for wonderful parent type love, but would be protected and preserved by people that have obtained Godly type Love (like Abraham in the rich man and Lazarus story).

I do not find in scripture a lot of references and information on how God treats those not aware of what is in scripture. You have a little side glance with Nineveh in Jonah, but what was said to them before Jonah went there is speculation.

If a person under the pressure of past actions that hurt others (sin), sought relief from the burden in his conscience to the point of finally turn to His unseen creator for true help (forgiveness) , would God forgive him?

Are you seriously saying that if God saves according to his own good pleasure and decree that makes him unfair? Does God really have to run all his decisions by you? Have you not read the book of Job? God put Job in his place for the very attitude you have sir!

“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
Who determined its measurements—surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
when the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
(Job 38:4-7 ESV)

I am saying God does not lie, so God is going to consistently save, those He says He is going to save.



I think we agree that God is not arbitrary, so God cannot act arbitrarily (randomly). Godly type Love is just (fair), so what is the “just/fair” reason God chooses some over others?

How does it not look totally random to you?

[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']If God is not doing it “randomly” than there is a reason=cause=condition, even if the condition is within God’s own “mind”. But if there is a “condition” than God’s merciful Love is conditional and not unconditional?

[/FONT]

 

[guuila]

It is not the “intruding” on my free will that makes it “unfair” it is the not intruding on everyone’s free will the same saving way, which makes it “unfair”.

This is proof that in order for you to love God, he must first fit your presuppositions. Even though every single human being deserves nothing but hell for their sin, you insist that if God is going to show mercy to one person, he must show the same mercy to the next person or else he is unfair. Explain how a person who deserves hell is treated unfairly if they don't receive mercy, because that's fundamentally what you're arguing for.

By the way, wasn't it God who chose to show special favor toward Israel while leaving the rest of the nations in darkness and ignorance? He didn't treat the pagan nations the way he treated Israel. But you think this is unfair?

 

[bling]

My view has a knowable reason: God's own purpose

.
To say God chooses, whomever He chooses, does not explain the why between those chosen and not chosen, it is all in the depth of God’s unknowable mind.

If a father saved one of his two children, when he could just as easily have saved both, would you not want a good explanation and not just “it fit my purpose”? What would you think of such a father?

Paul labors to teach in both Romans, Ephesians, and 1 Corinthians that the reason God designed salvation such that He chooses us (and not vice versa) is because it is for His own glory, and removes grounds for us to boast.

Your view is the complete opposite: We choose God, not for God's glory and not because of God's purpose, but because some people are just smarter than other people and God got lucky.

Makes no sense how anyone could believe such a thing.

Have you been reading any of what I have written:

There is no being “smarter” and in fact intelligence can get in the way (we do not want to rely on our self (intelligence)). We are not “choosing God”, we are selfishly choosing to survive. We allow God to show His glory through His sacrificial Love for us (like the prodigal son’s father).

 

[bling]

This is proof that in order for you to love God, he must first fit your presuppositions. Even though every single human being deserves nothing but hell for their sin, you insist that if God is going to show mercy to one person, he must show the same mercy to the next person or else he is unfair. Explain how a person who deserves hell is treated unfairly if they don't receive mercy, because that's fundamentally what you're arguing for.

“he must first fit your presuppositions”, I Love Jesus because Jesus was totally unselfish, just, fair, sacrificial, consistent, fought evil, and Loved humans. Jesus tells us this is the way the Father in heaven is (they are just alike), so that is whom I Love. Now if you say: “God is not like Jesus” than someone is lying and I do not know if I Love that other god.

If a father saved one of his two children, when he could just as easily have saved both, would you think this father had been fair to child He did not save?

By the way, wasn't it God who chose to show special favor toward Israel while leaving the rest of the nations in darkness and ignorance? He didn't treat the pagan nations the way he treated Israel. But you think this is unfair?

Israel was brought up for a very special purpose and all the other nations had a very common purpose, but that did not mean all those in the nation of Israel are in heaven and all those not in the nation of Israel are in hell. The Old Testament is following the lineage of Christ and God’s interaction with mostly individuals in that lineage. We know very little about God’s interaction with individuals outside Christ’s lineage, we have glimpse like in Jonah concerning Nineveh. Seeing how many of the masses of Jews throughout the Old Testament rebelled against God it is hard to say if the gentiles at that time were worse off, since we know very little about the gentiles. We do see that the Jews had a lot of “pride” in the knowledge they did have, which would have worked against them, but God allows other nations to humble them and offset this false pride.

 

[guuila]

To say God chooses, whomever He chooses, does not explain the why between those chosen and not chosen, it is all in the depth of God’s unknowable mind.

Why aren't you satisfied with the reason for things happening being solely due to the will of God? Is this not exactly what Scripture teaches?

Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, ACCORDING TO THE PURPOSE OF HIS WILL, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. (Ephesians 1:4-6 ESV)

If a father saved one of his two children, when he could just as easily have saved both, would you not want a good explanation and not just “it fit my purpose”? What would you think of such a father?

Why are you trying to squeeze the Almighty Holy God who saves hell deserving sinners for His own glory into a silly analogy of a sinful human father saving his two sinful children? Do you really think there is a parallel there? Why are your thoughts of the LORD of all creation so low?

Have you been reading any of what I have written:

There is no being “smarter” and in fact intelligence can get in the way (we do not want to rely on our self (intelligence)). We are not “choosing God”, we are selfishly choosing to survive. We allow God to show His glory through His sacrificial Love for us (like the prodigal son’s father).

It's great that you don't believe you are any smarter than the unbeliever, but unfortunately logic won't support it. The fact is, you simply are smarter. Is it not smarter to believe in Christ? Why are you trying to equate the decision to believe upon Christ to the decision to reject him and burn in hell for eternity? Anyone with any common sense knows it's wiser to make the choice that will escape eternal hellfire. Your thoughts of God are alarmingly low!

 

[guuila]

“he must first fit your presuppositions”, I Love Jesus because Jesus was totally unselfish, just, fair, sacrificial, consistent, fought evil, and Loved humans. Jesus tells us this is the way the Father in heaven is (they are just alike), so that is whom I Love. Now if you say: “God is not like Jesus” than someone is lying and I do not know if I Love that other god.

Do you believe Jesus loved Judas the exact same way that he loved the Apostle John?

Israel was brought up for a very special purpose and all the other nations had a very common purpose, but that did not mean all those in the nation of Israel are in heaven and all those not in the nation of Israel are in hell. The Old Testament is following the lineage of Christ and God’s interaction with mostly individuals in that lineage. We know very little about God’s interaction with individuals outside Christ’s lineage, we have glimpse like in Jonah concerning Nineveh. Seeing how many of the masses of Jews throughout the Old Testament rebelled against God it is hard to say if the gentiles at that time were worse off, since we know very little about the gentiles. We do see that the Jews had a lot of “pride” in the knowledge they did have, which would have worked against them, but God allows other nations to humble them and offset this false pride.

None of this changes the fact that God chose to give light to the nation of Israel while leaving others in darkness to perish. God does the same thing today. Millions of people die having never heard the Gospel message. But according to you, this makes God unfair. You might want to reconsider how you speak of God. He owes us nothing friend.

 

[guuila]

There is no being “smarter” and in fact intelligence can get in the way (we do not want to rely on our self (intelligence)). We are not “choosing God”, we are selfishly choosing to survive. We allow God to show His glory through His sacrificial Love for us (like the prodigal son’s father). [/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR]

Scripture doesn't support your assertion:

The fool says in his heart, “There is no God." (Psalm 14:1 ESV)

The truth is, if you reject Christ, you are a fool. According to your theology, the reason you aren't a fool is ultimately due to your ability to discern the wisdom in believing upon the Lord Jesus Christ. According to my theology, the reason I have that discernment is because God himself gave it to me by intruding on my free will that was in rebellion toward him. Like the fool who rejects God, there but for the grace of God goeth I. You can't consistently say this. Grace influenced you, but went no farther.

 

[bling]

Why aren't you satisfied with the reason for things happening being solely due to the will of God? Is this not exactly what Scripture teaches?

Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, ACCORDING TO THE PURPOSE OF HIS WILL, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. (Ephesians 1:4-6 ESV)

Fortunately that is not the only passage explaining God’s will or some might be cofused.

Paul is addressing existing Christians, so of course all of them were part of the chosen. The “chosen” are those that have and will believe. It is God’s will to say all those that believe and God predestine this fact from the beginning of time.

Why are you trying to squeeze the Almighty Holy God who saves hell deserving sinners for His own glory into a silly analogy of a sinful human father saving his two sinful children? Do you really think there is a parallel there? Why are your thoughts of the LORD of all creation so low?

Yes the parallel is obvious. Those “sinful children” are also God’s children.

My “thoughts” of the Lord place Him with infinite Love. With a Love so great God will not even over step man’s free will.

It's great that you don't believe you are any smarter than the unbeliever, but unfortunately logic won't support it. The fact is, you simply are smarter. Is it not smarter to believe in Christ? Why are you trying to equate the decision to believe upon Christ to the decision to reject him and burn in hell for eternity? Anyone with any common sense knows it's wiser to make the choice that will escape eternal hellfire. Your thoughts of God are alarmingly low!

What does God say about those that are wise in this world?

So can you take pride in being “smarter” than the unbeliever?

A big part of the reason I became a believer is because I realized I could not depend on my smarts.

Today, I have the indwelling Holy Spirit and He is very smart, but that is not “my” smarts.

Saving belief has to do with trusting and not with “knowledge” (smarts). If you had knowledge you do not need faith.

When you witness before kings and rulers are you going to rely on your smarts?

 

[bling]

Do you believe Jesus loved Judas the exact same way that he loved the Apostle John?

Yes, with Godly type Love. Do you Love all your children the same and should you?

None of this changes the fact that God chose to give light to the nation of Israel while leaving others in darkness to perish. God does the same thing today. Millions of people die having never heard the Gospel message. But according to you, this makes God unfair. You might want to reconsider how you speak of God. He owes us nothing friend.

Did God leave Nineveh in darkness?

WasMelchizedek left in darkness and those Melchizedek preached to?

How do you know millions of mature adults die “never knowing about Godly type Love”?

Can you judge and know, who all will go to hell?

 

[bling]

Scripture doesn't support your assertion:

The fool says in his heart, “There is no God." (Psalm 14:1 ESV)

The truth is, if you reject Christ, you are a fool. According to your theology, the reason you aren't a fool is ultimately due to your ability to discern the wisdom in believing upon the Lord Jesus Christ. According to my theology, the reason I have that discernment is because God himself gave it to me by intruding on my free will that was in rebellion toward him. Like the fool who rejects God, there but for the grace of God goeth I. You can't consistently say this. Grace influenced you, but went no farther.

It is extremely hard for anyone to say: “there is no God”, but in our world today who is more likely to do that “those that are “smart” (by the standards of this world) or those poor uneducated people in Africa, South America and China?

In the story of the prodigal son there were two sons, so which one was smarter?

 

[guuila]

Fortunately that is not the only passage explaining God’s will or some might be cofused.

Paul is addressing existing Christians, so of course all of them were part of the chosen. The “chosen” are those that have and will believe. It is God’s will to say all those that believe and God predestine this fact from the beginning of time.

Uh huh. But on what basis were they chosen? You're avoiding the issue. They were chosen according to the counsel of HIS WILL. Not according to the counsel of their FREE WILL. It's right there in black and white.

Yes the parallel is obvious. Those “sinful children” are also God’s children.

Really? The father in the parable is a sinner like you and me. You think God the Father is a sinner?

My “thoughts” of the Lord place Him with infinite Love. With a Love so great God will not even over step man’s free will.

And I can see why you think that. You place more value on free will than free grace. I say God has a love so great that he actually DOES over step man's free will.

What does God say about those that are wise in this world?

So can you take pride in being “smarter” than the unbeliever?

Are you serious right now? How many times have I explained to you that the reason I discerned the wisdom in believing upon the Lord Jesus is because OF GOD'S GRACE CONQUERING MY WILL AND GIVING ME THIS WISDOM. It is you sir who believes God DID NOT do this. You believe God enticed you and left you to figure the rest out by free will. Can you please try to be honest about what you believe?

A big part of the reason I became a believer is because I realized I could not depend on my smarts.

Yes sir! The question is, did that realization come from your own intellect? Or did God give you that realization by overcoming your free will? Pick one. You can't have both. Who is sovereign over your will? You or God?

Today, I have the indwelling Holy Spirit and He is very smart, but that is not “my” smarts.

Ok so you lost your free will now that you're saved? If you had free will before, why do you need the Holy Spirit now? If your free will was good enough to "get you in" it should be good enough to keep you in and sanctify you. As soon as the Holy Spirit comes in, your free will is lost. Right?

Saving belief has to do with trusting and not with “knowledge” (smarts). If you had knowledge you do not need faith.

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive.

When you witness before kings and rulers are you going to rely on your smarts?

I don't see the relevance here.

 

[guuila]

It is extremely hard for anyone to say: “there is no God”, but in our world today who is more likely to do that “those that are “smart” (by the standards of this world) or those poor uneducated people in Africa, South America and China?

In the story of the prodigal son there were two sons, so which one was smarter?

Again, you're missing the point. If you say there is no God, you may be extremely intelligent, but according to Scripture, you are a fool.

You are not a fool Bling. You believe there is a God. Again, I ask, what is the difference between you and the fool? Did you just somehow figure it out and make the right decision? Or did God implant wisdom into you like Calvinists say he did?

 

[bling]

Again, you're missing the point. If you say there is no God, you may be extremely intelligent, but according to Scripture, you are a fool.

You are not a fool Bling. You believe there is a God. Again, I ask, what is the difference between you and the fool? Did you just somehow figure it out and make the right decision? Or did God implant wisdom into you like Calvinists say he did?

I am not saying sinful man takes on spiritual things or even desires to be like God (selfless) that seems foolish to him. What sinful man does is want God to act illogically toward him/her (foolishly in his/her opinion). Sinful man wants to be treated with just a little mercy, he totally does not deserve and mercy he himself would not show others or expect anyone else to show him.
"Spiritual Wisdom" is a gift that comes with a believing pray and only after you have accepted God forgiveness. Accepting God's forgiveness does not take Spiritual wisdom, just directing the ability to trust ever mature person has toward his Creator and humbly accepting His help.

 

[bling]

Again, you're missing the point. If you say there is no God, you may be extremely intelligent, but according to Scripture, you are a fool.

You are not a fool Bling. You believe there is a God. Again, I ask, what is the difference between you and the fool? Did you just somehow figure it out and make the right decision? Or did God implant wisdom into you like Calvinists say he did?

You did not answer the questions:
It is extremely hard for anyone to say: “there is no God”, but in our world today who is more likely to do that “those that are “smart” (by the standards of this world) or those poor uneducated people in Africa, South America and China?


In the story of the prodigal son there were two sons, so which one was smarter?

 

[guuila]

"Spiritual Wisdom" is a gift that comes with a believing pray and only after you have accepted God forgiveness. Accepting God's forgiveness does not take Spiritual wisdom, just directing the ability to trust ever mature person has toward his Creator and humbly accepting His help. [/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]

Fail. You must have spiritual wisdom to believe the Gospel in the first place. There is no concept of conversion in your theology. No sinner "humbly" accepts God's help. Again, read 1 Cor. 2:14. You're minimizing sin and making sinful man better than he really is, which by necessity makes God less holy than He is.

 

[Verona]

Fail. You must have spiritual wisdom to believe the Gospel in the first place. There is no concept of conversion in your theology. No sinner "humbly" accepts God's help. Again, read 1 Cor. 2:14. You're minimizing sin and making sinful man better than he really is, which by necessity makes God less holy than He is.

Hmmm

Dead in transgressions seems to me we are totally unable to respond.

But when we get regenerated we become dead to sin. Yet we still sin! In fact still unable to NOT sin.


How then does one dead mean totally unable but another dead means NOT totally unable. ?

 

[Skala]

Hmmm

Dead in transgressions seems to me we are totally unable to respond.

But when we get regenerated we become dead to sin. Yet we still sin! In fact still unable to NOT sin.


How then does one dead mean totally unable but another dead means NOT totally unable. ?

A prisoner in a cage is still able to pace around behind the bars. In other words his actions are limited by and decided by the situation he's in.

In like manner an unregenerate person can only choose within a certain range. They can choose to sin, they can choose whatever poison they want. They can't choose the holy and best things until a new heart is given.

That's why salvation is by "grace", not by "turn over a new leaf" or "wisen up"

 

[bling]

Fail. You must have spiritual wisdom to believe the Gospel in the first place. There is no concept of conversion in your theology. No sinner "humbly" accepts God's help. Again, read 1 Cor. 2:14. You're minimizing sin and making sinful man better than he really is, which by necessity makes God less holy than He is.

No matter how you talk about it: Accepting the invitation, surrendering or turning to seek the father’s mercy, we really do not know what we are getting ourselves into. Unconditional Love is not logical, but that is Godly type Love, so it seems foolish to us. Like I keep saying it is not a knowledge issue: The group that accepts/surrender/turns and the group continues to refuse/fights on/retains a false pride do so because of the trusting (faith), coming to the same common sense any mature adult can come to and decide.
The street people that accept the invitation are not going for some deep spiritual reason, but are going to a party. The son went home to the father in hopes of getting a job (not to be lived up to a son ship position).

Look at the wedding party guests: Did the ones that made excuses and did not go (the first ones the King invited) did they have less spiritual “knowledge” than the street people that accepted the king’s invite?

 

[guuila]

No matter how you talk about it: Accepting the invitation, surrendering or turning to seek the father’s mercy, we really do not know what we are getting ourselves into. Unconditional Love is not logical, but that is Godly type Love, so it seems foolish to us. Like I keep saying it is not a knowledge issue: The group that accepts/surrender/turns and the group continues to refuse/fights on/retains a false pride do so because of the trusting (faith), coming to the same common sense any mature adult can come to and decide.
The street people that accept the invitation are not going for some deep spiritual reason, but are going to a party. The son went home to the father in hopes of getting a job (not to be lived up to a son ship position).

Look at the wedding party guests: Did the ones that made excuses and did not go (the first ones the King invited) did they have less spiritual “knowledge” than the street people that accepted the king’s invite?

Read 1 Cor. 2:14.