Random or Conditional

[bling]

Random or Conditional

In another thread we were talking about salvation being possibly random to some extent.

The Calvinist seemed to argue that with their theology salvation is not random but the result of God’s choice, God has merciful Love for some and does not have merciful love for others? (If this is not right please correct me.)

When I ask about God’s “selection process” for determining who will and won’t be saved I get a lot of inconsistency, but no one likes the idea of it being a “random” selection by God.

The problem I am seeing: If God’s selection for extending merciful Love to people is not “random” than it is conditional and if it is conditional than God’s merciful Love is conditional and not unconditional?

So even if we do not know the “condition” for God’s selection of the elect (extending Merciful Love), if it is not done randomly, than God’s Love is not unconditional?

Armenians get around this issue by saying God’s Love is totally unconditional extended to everyone and the “condition” is man’s willingness to humbly accept or reject God’s charity.

 

[Skala]

Random means arbitrary (ie, without reason)

When God elects, there is a reason (His own purpose), its just that the reason is not found in the men themselves. That is why its called unconditional. The men themselves meet no conditions to be elected. The reason for their election is not found in them, but in God's mercy: his own purpose and grace.

Thus, it is not random. It is not arbitrary. There is very much so a reason for God's choice of us. It's just not found in us!

 

[Eddie L]

Random means arbitrary (ie, without reason)

When God elects, there is a reason (His own purpose), its just that the reason is not found in the men themselves. That is why its called unconditional. The men themselves meet no conditions to be elected. The reason for their election is not found in them, but in God's mercy: his own purpose and grace.

Thus, it is not random. It is not arbitrary. There is very much so a reason for God's choice of us. It's just not found in us!

I agree. We don't know why each of the elect were chosen, but we do know that the answer would be a real pride smasher to every one of us. After we've heard the explanation for our own election, we will be on our faces realizing that the only thing we've ever had in our favor was the unmerited favor of God. There isn't anything about us or in us apart from grace that has made us worthy of redemption. So that "syrup on pancakes" feeling we get from knowing that we're saved can't emanate from pride. It can't be from the thought "I was found worthy!" or "I did it!" It can only come from "He was found worthy!" and "He did it!".

 

[Skala]

It can't be from the thought "I was found worthy!" or "I did it!"

Which is the opposite of Arminianism

 

[Clare73]

Random means arbitrary (ie, without reason)

When God elects, there is a reason (His own purpose), its just that the reason is not found in the men themselves. That is why its called unconditional. The men themselves meet no conditions to be elected. The reason for their election is not found in them, but in God's mercy: his own purpose and grace.

Thus, it is not random. It is not arbitrary. There is very much so a reason for God's choice of us. It's just not found in us!

And if we realize that his choice was made before he created the world, we see our election as a fulfillment of his decree.

 

[bling]

Random means arbitrary (ie, without reason)

When God elects, there is a reason (His own purpose), its just that the reason is not found in the men themselves. That is why its called unconditional. The men themselves meet no conditions to be elected. The reason for their election is not found in them, but in God's mercy: his own purpose and grace.

Thus, it is not random. It is not arbitrary. There is very much so a reason for God's choice of us. It's just not found in us!

You use the word “purpose”, and we could say some people fit God’s purpose and others do not, but that is not what you are saying, since it has nothing to do with man fitting anything. So what is the difference between the purpose and the reason?

Does a reason = a cause?

Does a cause not also mean a condition, even if the condition is within God?

If the person is not the cause for being lost then there is something within God that causes people to be lost, but, I think, you say: it is the person’s sin that causes them to be lost, but everyone sins. So could we say: “it is unforgiven sin that causes people to be lost”?

That means God is willing to forgive some people’s sins and not forgive other people’s sins, because of something within God that has nothing to do with man.

That really sounds like a problem God has and/or a deficiency God has and not man’s problem.

So it all goes back to the unknowable “reason” for God not have merciful Love for some people.

What would limit God’s merciful Love, or how could God have this problem (that seems like an oxymoron)?

 

[bling]

I agree. We don't know why each of the elect were chosen, but we do know that the answer would be a real pride smasher to every one of us. After we've heard the explanation for our own election, we will be on our faces realizing that the only thing we've ever had in our favor was the unmerited favor of God. There isn't anything about us or in us apart from grace that has made us worthy of redemption. So that "syrup on pancakes" feeling we get from knowing that we're saved can't emanate from pride. It can't be from the thought "I was found worthy!" or "I did it!" It can only come from "He was found worthy!" and "He did it!".

What is going to be the explanation for why your friends and relatives that were exactly like you were not saved?

 

[bling]

Which is the opposite of Arminianism

How can anyone take pride in humbly accepting pure undeserved charity?

 

[bling]

And if we realize that his choice was made before he created the world, we see our election as a fulfillment of his decree.

God did promise and choose to elect all those that would accept His charity.

 

[Skala]

God did promise and choose to elect all those that would accept His charity.

Bible verse please?

 

[Skala]

How can anyone take pride in humbly accepting pure undeserved charity?

Because their humility is, in your system, self-wrought by the sinner, rather than a product of the new heart that God gives in monergistic, effectual regeneration.

Thus they have room to boast that they were more humble than unbelievers. And they were therefore saved because of a righteousness of their own that other sinners lacked.

 

[Skala]

You use the word “purpose”, and we could say some people fit God’s purpose and others do not, but that is not what you are saying, since it has nothing to do with man fitting anything. So what is the difference between the purpose and the reason?

Does a reason = a cause?

Does a cause not also mean a condition, even if the condition is within God?

If the person is not the cause for being lost then there is something within God that causes people to be lost, but, I think, you say: it is the person’s sin that causes them to be lost, but everyone sins. So could we say: “it is unforgiven sin that causes people to be lost”?

That means God is willing to forgive some people’s sins and not forgive other people’s sins, because of something within God that has nothing to do with man.

That really sounds like a problem God has and/or a deficiency God has and not man’s problem.

So it all goes back to the unknowable “reason” for God not have merciful Love for some people.

What would limit God’s merciful Love, or how could God have this problem (that seems like an oxymoron)?

God is not obligated to show mercy. That is the very definition of mercy. Mercy cannot be demanded or owed.

God would be just if He decided to save zero people.

Yet God has chosen to save some people (but not all), and it still remains just of God to do that. If God would be just to save zero people, how can you cry injustice if He saves some, but not all?

Rom 9 tells us that God is glorified in both salvation and damnation. Thus God has a purpose in saving some, but not all. Since it's a purpose/reason, it cannot be said to be arbitrary.

 

[Esdra]

Bible verse please?

What about this one?

11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? (Eze 33:11, KJV)

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[Eddie L]

What is going to be the explanation for why your friends and relatives that were exactly like you were not saved?

The same reasons it would have been for me apart from grace:

1. Loving darkness rather than light
2. Refusing to give gratitude to God
3. Turning away from the evidence of creation and conscience that God exists
4. Self-righteousness and pride
5. Idolatry
6. Wickedness
7. The presence of any sin

In other words, those that aren't saved by grace are condemned by sin, just as those saved by grace WERE condemned by sin.

 

[Skala]

What about this one?

11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? (Eze 33:11, KJV)

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Where does it say that God chooses them based on their actions? it doesn't say that anywhere in the actual text.

All we can learn from the verse is that God is not pleased by the wicked's life and his eventually death (because of it), and thus commands them to turn from their evil ways.

Where, in those imperatives, is the idea that God chooses people based on what they do?

 

[Esdra]

Where does it say that God chooses them based on their actions? it doesn't say that anywhere in the actual text.

All we can learn from the verse is that God is not pleased by the wicked's life and his eventually death (because of it), and thus commands them to turn from their evil ways.

Where, in those imperatives, is the idea that God chooses people based on what they do?

Nowhere, the Bible says:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph 2:8-9, KJV)

We are saved by God's Grace and Faith in Jesus.

Or:
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. (Rom 11:6, KJV)

Read Romans Chapter 2-4. I think St. Paul is quite clear here concerning works and salvation.

 

[Skala]

Nowhere, the Bible says:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph 2:8-9, KJV)

We are saved by God's Grace and Faith in Jesus.

Or:
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. (Rom 11:6, KJV)

Read Romans Chapter 2-4. I think St. Paul is quite clear here concerning works and salvation.

I'm confused.

You're the one in the first placed who, when I asked for a Bible verse for proof of Bling's claim that God chooses people based on what they do, you said "How about this verse?" then listed Ezek 33:11.

Now, you seem to be agreeing with me that the verse actually doesn't say that God chooses people based on what they do. Which makes me wonder why you brought it up in the first place??

 

[Esdra]

I'm confused.

You're the one in the first placed who, when I asked for a Bible verse for proof of Bling's claim that God chooses people based on what they do, you said "How about this verse?" then listed Ezek 33:11.

Now, you seem to be agreeing with me that the verse actually doesn't say that God chooses people based on what they do. Which makes me wonder why you brought it up in the first place??

Yes, my mistake, sorry.
I think I should've read the whole thread through.

I do believe that we are saved by grace alone. I am Baptist in my believe (or something similar, in Austria [and Germany] there're so called "Evangelical Free Churches" and they are also baptist communities)

 

[Skala]

Yes, my mistake, sorry.
I think I should've read the whole thread through.

I do believe that we are saved by grace alone. I am Baptist in my believe (or something similar, in Austria [and Germany] there're so called "Evangelical Free Churches" and they are also baptist communities)

No worries! I was just making sure I understood everything, lol

 

[Esdra]

Where does it say that God chooses them based on their actions? it doesn't say that anywhere in the actual text.

All we can learn from the verse is that God is not pleased by the wicked's life and his eventually death (because of it), and thus commands them to turn from their evil ways.

Where, in those imperatives, is the idea that God chooses people based on what they do?

Well, St. Paul does write about actions. All who don't know Christ or didn't (want) to accept Him as their Lord ans Savior, will be judged on the Last Day by their actions.

The first because God has given every person a conscious with which one can decide what's good or bad. (So, if I understood correctly, this doesn't necessarily mean that they go to hell.)

Confer:

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
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15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. (Rom 2:14-16, KJV)
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The second can't pass God's judgement, for "

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Rom 3:23, KJV)
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and

19 Now the works of the flesh [= sin] are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Gal 5:19-21, KJV)



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