Racism

[nolongerhome]

Why not? If its not evil, not immoral, and not even reprehensible, whats not to like about it?

I don't like strawberry ice cream, even though it isn't evil, immoral or reprehensible.

 

[JWNEWMAN]

We seem to suffer from a bad case of miscommunication.

Race is significant because there are cultural issues, history, religion, etc., contributing to the behavior of people from various races. Misunderstand and misinterpreted behaviors based a person own norms is what often creates racist views. Which is why it is significant to observe and define differences, not to judge but to understand.

You are right we don't comprehend one another. We live in different realities altogether. In yours there is no evil and racism is only significant to those who consider it significant.

So if your being beaten to a bloody pulp by someone who hates you because of your race. Only the beating will be significant not the cause. Only problem is the beatings will continue till the cause is eradicated.

 

[nolongerhome]

Race is significant because there are cultural issues, history, religion, etc., contributing to the behavior of people from various races. Misunderstand and misinterpreted behaviors based a person own norms is what often creates racist views. Which is why it is significant to observe and define differences, not to judge but to understand.

You are right we don't comprehend one another. We live in different realities altogether. In yours there is no evil and racism is only significant to those who consider it significant.

So if your being beaten to a bloody pulp by someone who hates you because of your race. Only the beating will be significant not the cause. Only problem is the beatings will continue till the cause is eradicated.

... and the cause will only be eradicated when nobody cosiders race to be significant any more.

 

[JWNEWMAN]

I don't like strawberry ice cream, even though it isn't evil, immoral or reprehensible.

That's missing the point. Not liking strawberry ice cream, and not liking murder ... only a psychopath would equate the two. Or someone just looking to be contrary.

 

[JWNEWMAN]

... and the cause will only be eradicated when nobody cosiders race to be significant any more.

Race will always be significant. That's the whole point. Understanding differences is what changes opinions.

 

[nolongerhome]

Race will always be significant. That's the whole point. Understanding differences is what changes opinions.

Why will race always necessarily be significant?

If I can chose for it not to be significant, if quatona can chose for it not to be significant... why can't everyone else?

 

[nolongerhome]

That's missing the point. Not liking strawberry ice cream, and not liking murder ... only a psychopath would equate the two. Or someone just looking to be contrary.

I think you just missed my point, then.

 

[quatona]

You are right we don't comprehend one another. We live in different realities altogether. In yours there is no evil and racism is only significant to those who consider it significant.

First you say that you don´t comprehend me, next you claim to know my position better than me. Something doesn´t seem to add up there.

Actually, the opposite would be a great representation of my position: Racism is highly significant to me, race isn´t.

Just like the existence or non-existence of a god is irrelevant and insignificant to me, but the fact that many people believe in such is highly significant to me.

So if your being beaten to a bloody pulp by someone who hates you because of your race. Only the beating will be significant not the cause. Only problem is the beatings will continue till the cause is eradicated.

The cause is not my race. The cause is his racism.

 

[quatona]

Why not? If its not evil, not immoral, and not even reprehensible, whats not to like about it?

Hang on - do I understand the implication underlying this question correctly:
Unless I can judge something immoral, evil, reprehensible there is no way for me to dislike it?
You seem to be saying (correct me if I am wrong, please) that moral judgement always preceeds (or should preceed) our preferences and dislikes.
Personally, I tend towards the notion that it is the other way round: Preferences and dislikes (actually, our feelings and emotions) are post hoc rationalized by moral judgement.

 

[JWNEWMAN]

Why will race always necessarily be significant?

If I can chose for it not to be significant, if quatona can chose for it not to be significant... why can't everyone else?

That's like saying I can choose diesel fuel for my unleaded vehicle. It doesn't work that way. You might be able to do it with some modifications. My point is those modifications are necessary it's called (in this case) understanding.

Race is a significant factor and dynamic regardless. You may never discover the significance of that reality because you'll never have to deal with situations caused by that reality personally. Even so it is a factor for you because it shapes the reality of the world you live in.

You are talking outside of your life experience I imagine. I've dealt with almost every race on the planet in my travels and the significance isn't the differences but understanding the differences and how that shapes perspectives, therefor feelings, therefor actions/reactions.

If you are white and you go live in a depressed inner city where it's predominantly black you'd better understand how to "act" or you may die. That's a crude example of the significance of race. Just because you say it's not significant to you won't make a bit of difference in the reality you'll face.
To be fair I know of several places where the reverse is true for anyone but white people.

I'm only bringing up the highly negative aspects because they are caused by the same problem in race relations at every level. It's a problem of understanding.

Understanding a peoples culture, history, and perspective arms you with the ability to comprehend behavior and avoid conflicts, bridge gaps. Create positive meaningful associations. It also helps you educate bigots.

Some bigots have good reason for their feelings. Wrong, yes. But from their limited experience, solid and true. In order to combat that saying something like "race is not a factor," will only get hate directed at you. And sometimes for the sake of hide, you might want to just keep your mouth shut.

I've been in those situations. So to hear someone say "race is an insignificant factor" sounds incredibly naive to these ears.

 

[JWNEWMAN]

First you say that you don´t comprehend me, next you claim to know my position better than me. Something doesn´t seem to add up there.

I agreed with you that we don't comprehend one another. That, because our life experiences are vastly different. You are naive.

Actually, the opposite would be a great representation of my position: Racism is highly significant to me, race isn´t.

You haven't lived the life of a white cop dealing with inner city blacks on a day to day basis have you? Then you don't understand what you're talking about.

You haven't been a black male harassed by authorities constantly for no better reason then you fit a profile have you? Then you don't understand racism.

You aren't an elderly black person who witnessed the hanging of your grandfather as a child because he was accused of looking at a white woman are you? Then you don't understand racism.

You aren't an Jew who's grandmother and grandfather were starved, experimented on and the cooked in an oven are you? Then you don't understand racism.

People have good reasons for their hate. Good reasons. Ultimately they are not good enough because of a lack of understanding. As long as race exists their will be the need to deal with racism and its root causes. So it will always be a factor. Understanding the differences (and there are differences) and modifying one's perspective and behavior based on that understanding is what is necessary to make positive changes in race relations.

Just like the existence or non-existence of a god is irrelevant and insignificant to me, but the fact that many people believe in such is highly significant to me.

It's only irrelevant if the latter is true. If the former is true, and, God has been reaching out to you, and, you've shut your ears with your attitude the significance of the former could be realized for an eternity.

The cause is not my race. The cause is his racism.

The actions of people of your race caused racism: you don't see the correlation?

 

[quatona]

I agreed with you that we don't comprehend one another. That, because our life experiences are vastly different.

Actually, I said that we had a communication problem, because I don´t find a way to make you understand what my position is.
Before you start analyzing and trying to comprehend why I hold the position I hold you would first have to understand what it is.

You are naive.

Careful with the ad hominems.

You haven't lived the life of a white cop dealing with inner city blacks on a day to day basis have you? Then you don't understand what you're talking about.

It seems to me that it´s you who doesn´t understand what I am talking about. I am talking about what is significant to me. I haven´t been talking about your cop and what he considers significant.

You haven't been a black male harassed by authorities constantly for no better reason then you fit a profile have you? Then you don't understand racism.

Do I understand you correctly: Unless I haven´t personally encountered something on the receiving end, I can´t have an educated opinion on it? Like, unless I have been murdered I can´t have an opinion on murder?
Is that the point you are trying to make? If not so, what is it?

You aren't an elderly black person who witnessed the hanging of your grandfather as a child because he was accused of looking at a white woman are you? Then you don't understand racism.

Ok. Let´s leave the discussion of racism to elderly black persons who witnessed the hanging of their grandfathers as a child exclusively.
Out of curiosity: Are you an elderly black person who witnessed the hanging of your grandfather as a child?

You aren't an Jew who's grandmother and grandfather were starved, experimented on and the cooked in an oven are you? Then you don't understand racism.

Well, you are correct: If the only persons you want to discuss with in your thread are victims of racism I am not the person you have been looking for.

However, again you keep arguing against a position I have repeatedly told you I don´t hold: I do consider racism a significant societal issue.

The actions of people of your race caused racism: you don't see the correlation?

Yes, I do see a correlation between racist actions and racism. Your point being?

If it´s not asked too much, I would like you to paraphrase what you think my position is and what you keep arguing against. Since you don´t address my position, I would at least like to know which position it is that you keep addressing.

 

[JWNEWMAN]

Actually, I said that we had a communication problem, because I don´t find a way to make you understand what my position is.
Before you start analyzing and trying to comprehend why I hold the position I hold you would first have to understand what it is.

And you would first have to understand what you are talking about.

It seems to me that it´s you who doesn´t understand what I am talking about.

Why of course!

I am talking about what is significant to me. I haven´t been talking about your cop and what he considers significant

.

You don't even understand yourself if you claim you have no racist tendencies. It is natural to prefer your own race, gender, team, etc.

Do I understand you correctly: Unless I haven´t personally encountered something on the receiving end, I can´t have an educated opinion on it? Like, unless I have been murdered I can´t have an opinion on murder?
Is that the point you are trying to make? If not so, what is it?

Ah, silliness! Of course not. You'd have to at least have honestly and deeply considered the effect of such events upon a person (which you haven't) before you smugly announce "there is no racism in my heart."

Ok. Let´s leave the discussion of racism to elderly black persons who witnessed the hanging of their grandfathers as a child exclusively.
Out of curiosity: Are you an elderly black person who witnessed the hanging of your grandfather as a child?

No but I've had long tearful conversations with people who've suffered such things.

Well, you are correct: If the only persons you want to discuss with in your thread are victims of racism I am not the person you have been looking for.

However, again you keep arguing against a position I have repeatedly told you I don´t hold: I do consider racism a significant societal issue.

Yet you claim race has no significance in any of your decision making processes? This is simply a lie IMO.

I know black people who avoid black areas of town or who, in certain neighborhoods would cross the street to walk alongside the white guy rather then face walking through a group of black teenagers.

But you! You wouldn't make that mistake! You wouldn't respond in such a racist and prejudicial manner! No. You'd skip right through the band of black teens whistling dixie because you don't have a racist thought in your head.

Yes, I do see a correlation between racist actions and racism. Your point being?

Everyone has racist tendencies. The issue is understanding not only other races and cultures but ourselves and, that, though normal, like a lust, it's something that needs to be subdued, checked, controlled.

Sorry for the delay. I been on the move and am surprised I have a connection in this remote spot. I'd left a rather lengthy reply yesterday before packing up but, the system went down just as I posted it.

 

[JWNEWMAN]

I know black people who avoid black areas of town or who, in certain neighborhoods would cross the street to walk alongside the white guy rather then face walking through a group of black teenagers.

Addendum to this: the reverse could also be true in another circumstance. I only used the example for illustrative purposes.

The sorry part of the above quoted remark is, that, though this is true and happens more often when it is a group of black youths this "reaction" which is racist has been largely "bred" into us by media.

Not today's media (how the pendulum swings) but media has played its part, mostly as a tool of the political machine - both previously and today - though the message has changed.

 

[JWNEWMAN]

Oh, Lord, I must continue so as not to be misunderstood.

While it might indeed be prudent "to cross the street" our fears are often taught to us, even subconsciously through the repetition of things we hear. Even if those things are in the periphery of our hearing.

 

[quatona]

I acknowledge that you feel you understand me better than I understand myself, and I appreciate your offer to share what you feel you know about me and what you feel you know my words mean.
However, I must tell you that, for me, this is not an acceptable setting for a fruitful conversation, and I refuse to discuss on that basis. There are only few things that I am an expert in, but I take comfort in the assumption that I am world´s leading and unquestionable expert when it comes to the question what my opinion is. I understand that this is hard for you to accept, but I´ll insist, nonetheless.
Thanks for all your efforts.

 

[JWNEWMAN]

I acknowledge that you feel you understand me better than I understand myself, and I appreciate your offer to share what you feel you know about me and what you feel you know my words mean.
However, I must tell you that, for me, this is not an acceptable setting for a fruitful conversation, and I refuse to discuss on that basis. There are only few things that I am an expert in, but I take comfort in the assumption that I am world´s leading and unquestionable expert when it comes to the question what my opinion is. I understand that this is hard for you to accept, but I´ll insist, nonetheless.
Thanks for all your efforts.

I loved the above expression I take comfort in the assumption that I am world´s leading and unquestionable expert when it comes to the question what my opinion is.

Your opinion is not in question. Your understanding of the subject matter is. However, I respect your right to disagree with me and to argue your position.

I might add one can insist the world is flat, but that doesn't make it so. I don't claim to understand your opinion better then you I claim you don't understand the subject matter deeply enough (or even human nature) to comprehend the basic flaws in your assertions.