Racism on display at University of Virginia

[Ken-1122]

Well, yes. That hardly changes the point though.

Perhaps I misunderstood you. What point were you making?

 

[Tom 1]

Perhaps I misunderstood you. What point were you making?

You could go back through the posts - I don’t want to type it all again.

 

[Ana the Ist]

A larger impact on what?

History....isn't that your whole point about lynching? Whatever you think lynching had an effect on.

 

[Tom 1]

History....isn't that your whole point about lynching? Whatever you think lynching had an effect on.

Ok, what you seem to be saying is that you don't think the history of slavery in the US or the other examples of mistreatment of one ethnic group by another has any relevance in the present. I can't think of any example where this idea would be true. If you are right, then you might have missed a career as an international peacemaker - you could simply go in and tell the Tamils, or the IRA or any other group agrieved by some past event that it simply doesn't matter anymore, and they should forget about it.

Then you are referencing current violence within the black community - I don't see what the link to what the rest of what you are saying is.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Ok, what you seem to be saying is that you don't think the history of slavery in the US or the other examples of mistreatment of one ethnic group by another has any relevance in the present.

It has the same relevance as all other history.

I can't think of any example where this idea would be true.

I don't see any Irish people complaining about the 100 years of anti-Irish discrimination in this country. I don't see anyone trying to justify racism from Irish people by invoking the discrimination in their past.

If you are right, then you might have missed a career as an international peacemaker - you could simply go in and tell the Tamils, or the IRA or any other group agrieved by some past event that it simply doesn't matter anymore, and they should forget about it.

Lol the troubles in Ireland ended in 1998. Basically every Irish person over 30 will remember living through it.

Redlining was outlawed in 1968 (?) and even then, one would have had to have been old enough to buy a house to really remember it. Basically if you're not a black person older than 70 you probably don't remember a time when the law could specifically discriminate against you.

The girl in the OP appears to be in her 20s.

I'll tell you what though...you seem to think the past is a valid reason to be racist today, how much longer is it a valid reason? For another decade? Two decades? Half a century? At what point does the past just become the past and racist behavior just become racist behavior?

Then you are referencing current violence within the black community - I don't see what the link to what the rest of what you are saying is.

If all these unjust murders in the past have such a huge impact on the black community...then logically the police do more for the benefit of the black community today than anyone else. They're out there trying to get justice for thousands and thousands of families of black murder victims every year.

 

[Tom 1]

It has the same relevance as all other history.

Relevant to what? All history is just one amorphous mass with no difference or distinction?

Lol the troubles in Ireland ended in 1998. Basically every Irish person over 30 will remember living through it.

A good example - firstly, things don't just 'end' just like that, an agreement is signed and, abracadabra, it all goes away. More importantly, if you were to focus only on that time period, the few decades of the 'troubles' leading up to the 1998 agreement, you would have a completely skewed impression of the whole situation, ignoring the historical events which the more recent conflict stemmed from, going back to the 1600s. More than 80% of the casualties in the period you refer to were British civilians and military personel. As shoud be obvious, you can't expect to have any kind of realistic appreciation of any situation of this sort by simply dividing history up into neat chunks based on some arbitrary notion.

Redlining was outlawed in 1968 (?) and even then, one would have had to have been old enough to buy a house to really remember it. Basically if you're not a black person older than 70 you probably don't remember a time when the law could specifically discriminate against you.

I can't make any sense of this - do you think that each generation starts with some sort of memory wipe, or something like that? That whatever their parents or grandparents experience, good or bad, whatever it might be, has no relevance at all?

.you seem to think the past is a valid reason to be racist today,

No, not at all. If you actually read what I am saying rather than re-working it in your own terms, you would see that is not what I am saying.

One of the things that makes us human is the ability to picture scenarios outside of our experience and empathise with the experiences of others. If, for example, whatever ethnic group you originate from had been forcibly taken en masse to another country, enslaved there for years under brutal conditions, finally granted freedom and told to be grateful about it, to then have to spend decades being treated as second class citizens by many - really, you would have no response to that? You'd just shrug it off? Nothing? You would simply accept that 'oh well, these things happen?'

Your own argument about it all being to do with behaviour kind of defeats your accusation that the kind of thing the OP addresses is racism. People get or have got all kinds of ideas based on ethnicity - this or that ethnic group is ____ (fill in the blank). This is what racism is about - judgements based on ethnicity, not things that actually happen. Do you honestly not think that young black people, in this example, might not have some strong feelings about the history of slavery and race relations in the US? Do you think they should somehow be immune to this? Not able or not allowed to have some sort of reaction to things that happened to people like them expressly because of their race, without being instantly accused of racism?

is it a valid reason? For another decade? Two decades? Half a century?

Do you truly, honestly think this whole issue, wherever it happens, can be reduced to such a basic notion?

 

[rjs330]

Those are some pretty superficial notions.

How so?

 

[Tom 1]

How so?

Well, for a couple the idea that one act of violence by one person is somehow comparable to centuries of enslavement and violence towards a huge number of people based on their origin/ethnicity, and everything that came out of that. And the conflation of ‘racism’, i.e something about race, with things people feel about things that actually happened, and have relevance today.

 

[durangodawood]

...one act of violence by one person is somehow comparable to centuries of enslavement and violence towards a huge number of people....

We're in the online age where people have lost all sense of proportion.

 

[rjs330]

Do you truly, honestly think this whole issue, wherever it happens, can be reduced to such a basic notion?

Yes it can. If you are going to hold a grudge against a certain group of people who probably had NOTHING to do with the injustices of the past to people you don't know and injustices you never experienced, then we have a right to know how long.

At some point you have to let it go. Especially when neither you nor the people of today had anything to do with it. So how long do we have a right to hold a grudge over a group of people for injustices done by a few of their ancestors?

 

[Tom 1]

Yes it can. If you are going to hold a grudge against a certain group of people who probably had NOTHING to do with the injustices of the past to people you don't know and injustices you never experienced, then we have a right to know how long.

At some point you have to let it go. Especially when neither you nor the people of today had anything to do with it. So how long do we have a right to hold a grudge over a group of people for

The idea of 'holding a grudge' doesnt fit very well, as I see it. I don't think people are simply 'holding a grudge' in a situation like that, and floating the idea makes no difference that I can see. Roughly comparable in some ways is the situation of the Roma here in Eastern Europe. The Roma were treated terribly for centuries, right up until the last century. Technically they now have equal access, under EU regulations, to the same things everyone else has access to - and this is broadly true, it was true to an extent under communism also. However that whole history does not simply evaporate, Roma as a group became even more insular than they might have been originally as a used and abused group, quite naturally, I would say, there is a deeply rooted mistrust of the nations in which they live, naturally as those nations have frequently treated them as things to be used in various ways for long periods of time. That has nothing to do with the idea of 'holding a grudge'. Certainly there is less racism that there used to be towards Roma, but what do you think that actually would change in this or any similar situation? People aren't machines, you can't just flip switches to turn this or that feeling on or off, and neither can you say to some group badly treated for so long 'just get over it'. It makes no sense, people don't function in that way, even if they could be convinced they had no reason for distrust, which is hardly something that can be guaranteed.

 

[Ken-1122]

You could go back through the posts - I don’t want to type it all again.

I'm not talkin' about all the points you've made throughout the entire thread, I'm talking about the specific point that I commented on when you spoke of the disproportionate number of black people in prison. If you were suggesting this disproportionate number is based off of injustice I our justice system, my point stands, if you meant something else, please explain.

 

[Tom 1]

I'm not talkin' about all the points you've made throughout the entire thread, I'm talking about the specific point that I commented on when you spoke of the disproportionate number of black people in prison. If you were suggesting this disproportionate number is based off of injustice I our justice system, my point stands, if you meant something else, please explain.

As you said, ‘not everything is about racism’ - the opposite of that was not the point I’m making, so you were responding to something other than what I said.
If you go through the study review in the second link, some studies do suggest that ethnicity is an issue, for a range of reasons. You can read some of those and comment on them, if you like.

 

[rjs330]

Well, for a couple the idea that one act of violence by one person is somehow comparable to centuries of enslavement and violence towards a huge number of people based on their origin/ethnicity, and everything that came out of that. And the conflation of ‘racism’, i.e something about race, with things people feel about things that actually happened, and have relevance today.

You don't think an individual has a right to hold a racist view over something that happened to their ancestor, but you do believe a group of people have a right to be racist over what a group of people did to their ancestors? Even though the current group had nothing to do with it?

I see so numbers matter, not time or people.

How about the Jews do they have a right still to dislike Germans and perhaps want to discriminate against them? What about the Japanese?

At what point do you get to say, it's time to let that go and move on from something that had nothing to do with you?

 

[Ken-1122]

One of the things that makes us human is the ability to picture scenarios outside of our experience and empathise with the experiences of others. If, for example, whatever ethnic group you originate from had been forcibly taken en masse to another country, enslaved there for years under brutal conditions, finally granted freedom and told to be grateful about it, to then have to spend decades being treated as second class citizens by many - really, you would have no response to that? You'd just shrug it off? Nothing? You would simply accept that 'oh well, these things happen?'

If I never went through any of that stuff, but my grandparents and ancestors did, I might have a response to it but whatever response I might have would NOT be hostility towards people who simply looked like my ancestors oppressors, but had nothing to do with oppressing them

 

[Tom 1]

You don't think an individual has a right to hold a racist view over something that happened to their ancestor, but you do believe a group of people have a right to be racist over what a group of people did to their ancestors? Even though the current group had nothing to do with it?

I see so numbers matter, not time or people.

How about the Jews do they have a right still to dislike Germans and perhaps want to discriminate against them? What about the Japanese?

At what point do you get to say, it's time to let that go and move on from something that had nothing to do with you?

It’s you guys who keep calling everything racist, not me. As in the OP, it seems like some sort of obsession, trying to weed out any person who isn’t white doing something ‘racist’. What’s driving it?

 

[Tom 1]

If I never went through any of that stuff, but my grandparents and ancestors did, I might have a response to it but whatever response I might have would NOT be hostility towards people who simply looked like my ancestors oppressors, but had nothing to do with oppressing them

Hostility isn't what we're talking about here. The woman in the vid used in the OP is hardly hostile.

 

[Ken-1122]

It’s you guys who keep calling everything racist, not me.

We aren't calling everything racist, only that which we see as racist.

As in the OP, it seems like some sort of obsession, trying to weed out any person who isn’t white doing something ‘racist’.

No, it's like some obsession, trying to weed out racism where we see it.

What’s driving it?

There is an old saying;
When good people sit back and allow bad people to spread chaos and evil unchallenged..... those good people become contributors to chaos and evil

What's driving it you ask? I don't wanna be a contributor to chaos and evil

 

[Ana the Ist]

Relevant to what? All history is just one amorphous mass with no difference or distinction?

Relevant to the present. If you think some parts have more distinction than the others, that's entirely subjective. I could be wrong...but your total inability to explain why lynchings matter more than the rest isn't helping.

A good example - firstly, things don't just 'end' just like that, an agreement is signed and, abracadabra, it all goes away. More importantly, if you were to focus only on that time period, the few decades of the 'troubles' leading up to the 1998 agreement, you would have a completely skewed impression of the whole situation, ignoring the historical events which the more recent conflict stemmed from, going back to the 1600s. More than 80% of the casualties in the period you refer to were British civilians and military personel. As shoud be obvious, you can't expect to have any kind of realistic appreciation of any situation of this sort by simply dividing history up into neat chunks based on some arbitrary notion.

I think you missed the whole point I was making.

I can't make any sense of this - do you think that each generation starts with some sort of memory wipe, or something like that?

Memory wipe? No.

That whatever their parents or grandparents experience, good or bad, whatever it might be, has no relevance at all?

Why would it? Nothing my grandparents lived through affects my opinions on anything.

No, not at all. If you actually read what I am saying rather than re-working it in your own terms, you would see that is not what I am saying.

One of the things that makes us human is the ability to picture scenarios outside of our experience and empathise with the experiences of others. If, for example, whatever ethnic group you originate from had been forcibly taken en masse to another country, enslaved there for years under brutal conditions, finally granted freedom and told to be grateful about it, to then have to spend decades being treated as second class citizens by many - really, you would have no response to that? You'd just shrug it off? Nothing? You would simply accept that 'oh well, these things happen?'

I'm Irish...mostly.

My ancestors suffered subjugation by the British for centuries, culminating in a forced famine where the British forced the Irish to farm potatoes and then left them to die by the millions from famine. My ancestors came to the US, and were systematically discriminated against for about 100 years and treated as second class citizens.

I can't think of anything dumber than holding a grudge against anyone because of it. All in all, I think it would be petty and childish. It doesn't matter what ethnic group, or culture, or race we're talking about....they've all been subjugated by someone in the past.

Your own argument about it all being to do with behaviour kind of defeats your accusation that the kind of thing the OP addresses is racism.

The woman in the OP is discriminating based on race....that's racism.

People get or have got all kinds of ideas based on ethnicity - this or that ethnic group is ____ (fill in the blank). This is what racism is about - judgements based on ethnicity, not things that actually happen. Do you honestly not think that young black people, in this example, might not have some strong feelings about the history of slavery and race relations in the US?

They might...but it's not an excuse to be racist.

Do you think they should somehow be immune to this?

She can feel however she wants about slavery....that's not the problem.

Not able or not allowed to have some sort of reaction to things that happened to people like them expressly because of their race, without being instantly accused of racism?

Again, she can feel however she wants about slavery....that's not an excuse for racism.

Do you truly, honestly think this whole issue, wherever it happens, can be reduced to such a basic notion?

Racism is either wrong...or it isn't.

 

[rjs330]

It’s you guys who keep calling everything racist, not me. As in the OP, it seems like some sort of obsession, trying to weed out any person who isn’t white doing something ‘racist’. What’s driving it?

We are not calling everything racist. That's what the left does.

We said the OP person expressed racist views. And you are the one who keeps telling us that get racist views are understandable. We say it's not. Now we challenge you to let us know how long we should understand the racist view.