RACISM? No, it is not.

msgstephen said:

Thats a blantant and racist falsehood. You should retract that.

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what was? the sarcastic remark and the joke?

you might want to try getting a sense of humor

geez. lighten up.

sethad said:

let me say this again

NO

ONE

IS

HATING

OR

ERASING

ANYTHING

.

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II wouldn't be to sure about that http://www.v-a.com/bible/jesus.html Yesterday. Wednesday, June 28, 2002, the news was that an atheist doctor is suing the US government in order that the phrase "under God" be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance, citing the doctrine of "separation of the powers of church and state." Incidentally, we all know something about the powers of the state, but what are the powers of the church in America

urnotme said:

II wouldn't be to sure about that http://www.v-a.com/bible/jesus.html Yesterday. Wednesday, June 28, 2002, the news was that an atheist doctor is suing the US government in order that the phrase "under God" be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance, citing the doctrine of "separation of the powers of church and state." Incidentally, we all know something about the powers of the state, but what are the powers of the church in America

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America isnt a theocracy. Because of that some people are on a rampage. and yes I think its being overly anal and stupid to be causing an uproar over something so little. who cares of the money says "under God" on it? I dont.

However that doesnt mean that your rights to worship how you please will be taken away. If anyone starts doing that, they're wrong and I would fight them about it.

Why should traditionally Judeo-Christian and European culture countries submit every time? Why should it be their culture that is endlessly diminished? People are beginning to stand up against the onslaught against them.

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Christians are doing just fine eroding their own traditionally Judeo-Christian culture in the US without any help.

After all, isn't it the megachurches of the US that are proposing to be closed on Christmas Day?

cameronw said:

Because it is not just a Political issue. It is also a cultural one. We are told we are supposed to be sympathetic and respectful to other cultures and their diversity. But then Christianity and all it stands for is being targeted and our traditions being slaughtered. It is time we stand up and instead of our rights being trampled on we are fighting back to keep our Christmas Trees. To share that this time of year is for Christmas. We know that Kwanzaa and Hanukkah are celebrated but you don't see us calling the Menorah, holiday sticks do you. Jews would be angry if we did. So call our tree what it is. Its a Christmas Tree.

-cw

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Actually a holiday tree might be more appropriate because trees don't have anything to do with the birth of christ. Neither does the time of year it's celebrated for that matter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagan_beliefs_surrounding_Christmas

sethad said:

see that's your problem. you view and percieve racism where there isnt any. you know thats one of the reasons why racism continues?

and if you ask me...you sound as if you hold some white nationalist ideas. so does that make you any better then those non-whites who you *think* hate whites that you keep bashing?

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Perhaps he/she meant the culture that a majority of the white people adhere to. I ddon't know what culture that would be but it sounds like that is what is meant.

arunma said:

Then perhaps you should explain to me the difference. I have never met a so-called "culturalist" who didn't also oppose interracial marriage on the grounds that it dilutes racial purity. Are you to be the first?

Again, please don't assume that I support Islam in the slightest.

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I think a racist discriminates against people of other races. A culturalist prefers his race to be purely a white or black etc. race but he doesn't necessarily look down on other races or discriminate against them. I think it's reasonable that somebody would want to keep his culture.

Urnotme said:

I think a racist discriminates against people of other races. A culturalist prefers his race to be purely a white or black etc. race but he doesn't necessarily look down on other races or discriminate against them. I think it's reasonable that somebody would want to keep his culture.

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As you've defined it, I certainly do think that a so-called "culturalist" is a racist. You mentioned that culturalists wish to keep their race pure. That is racial discrimination, because the culturalist in question makes a distinction between races. This is intrinsically a racist philosophy, and it has been the driving force between so many racist movements. "Separate but equal" was the American Supreme Court's foundational doctrine for segregation laws. But as our society has come to realize, separate is never equal. Almost any person who wishes to retain the purity of his race has a racist motivation.

And I think that such a person has no place in the body of Christ, but rather that such a person must be expelled from the church. How can a Christian have deep fellowship with brothers of other races when he wishes for those brothers to not become too close to those outside their own race? If a person considers racial distinctions to be weightier than the distinction between believer and unbeliever, then that person has not been cut to the heart with the Gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Of course, the two posters in question perhaps define culturalism differently than you have. And I hope that such is the case. Indeed, they have said that they wish to preserve culture, without regard to skin color. Msgstephen has also spoken positively about people of "mixed race." I hope that they explain their beliefs much more clearly.

SpaceIsThePlace said:

What about the slaughter of Indians in the days of Gandhi?

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In those days, we were oppressed by British people, not white people. Most white people had nothing to do with the occupation of India. Please keep in mind that 'white' is a much broader category of people than British.

Msgstephen said:

People of every race and mixed race should feel positive about being who they are, including .. yup, you guessed it .. whites. Have a bit of self-esteem. Quit cow-towing to those who would erase your culture because they associate it with whites [even though, in Canada, our culture is not specifically white; it is, rather, Canadian.

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That's fine, but please keep in mind that the Bible commands all Christians to step outside of their cultural boundaries for the sake of the Gospel. Paul freely associated with Gentiles in order to win some of them over to Christ. Likewise, you and I must both be willing to embrace different cultures for the sake of Christ's name.

Personally, I don't care what happens to American or Canadian culture. I do care about the state of Christ's church. As you say, people should feel positive about their race and culture. And we must freely receieve all cultures and races into the church. The Bible itself declares that the unity of many different races and cultures in the common cause of Jesus Christ is honoring to God, and we must work for such cultural unity within the church. Do you agree?

Yes in the church we should be one body in christ but these other cultures are not necessarily in the church. I don't think the op was necessarily talking about raacism as much as he wants to keep his culture and there is nothing wrong with that imo. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural And separate but equal can work. It didn't for us because there were racist motives behind it. I'm not saying it should be law but people generally prefer to associate with people of similar values. You don't have to associate with different cultures to prove that you are not a racist.

urnotme said:

Yes in the church we should be one body in christ but these other cultures are not necessarily in the church. I don't think the op was necessarily talking about raacism as much as he wants to keep his culture and there is nothing wrong with that imo. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural And separate but equal can work. It didn't for us because there were racist motives behind it. I'm not saying it should be law but people generally prefer to associate with people of similar values. You don't have to associate with different cultures to prove that you are not a racist.

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Urnotme, I don't know if we're talking about the same issue. You know that race and culture are not the same thing. You're right to say that people don't have to associate with other cultures. But according to God's design for his church, people do have to associate with other races. You say that "people generally prefer to associate with people of similar values." Surely you aren't saying that people of different skin color have different values, are you?

By the way, can you even concieve of a society in which so-called "separate but equal" segregation of race is done for anything but racist motives? This is always done in order to prevent mixing of races, because one race wishes to keep itself pure.

arunma said:

Urnotme, I don't know if we're talking about the same issue. You know that race and culture are not the same thing. You're right to say that people don't have to associate with other cultures. But according to God's design for his church, people do have to associate with other races. You say that "people generally prefer to associate with people of similar values." Surely you aren't saying that people of different skin color have different values, are you?

By the way, can you even concieve of a society in which so-called "separate but equal" segregation of race is done for anything but racist motives? This is always done in order to prevent mixing of races, because one race wishes to keep itself pure.

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It depends on which people as to whether they have different values. The color of somebodies skin doesn't have anything to do with it. In the church people should be willing to associate with other cultures they don't have to thogh.We are not commanded to be with other culturess if wee would rather be with our own. Not that we should discriminate against themm it would just be a personal preference.

TrueQ said:

That argument works two ways. The newcomers to a country have a right to their own culture and shouldn't be made to bend over backwards to accept a new one. What would you call it if some poor Muslim immigrant got a job at Walgreen's and was made to say "Merry Christmas" to everyone who walked in and bought something? Then they might come to actually hate the culture, even if they were perfectly neutral before.

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Newcomers to a country left their culture when the left their country. The should accept the society they have moved into. They shouldn't try to change it. The problem isn't "some poor Muslim immigrant" being forced to say Merry Christmas, it is a Christian not being allowed to say it.
If immigrants don't want to assimilate, they should not try to change the culture to fit them.

urnotme said:

It depends on which people as to whether they have different values. The color of somebodies skin doesn't have anything to do with it. In the church people should be willing to associate with other cultures they don't have to thogh.We are not commanded to be with other culturess if wee would rather be with our own. Not that we should discriminate against themm it would just be a personal preference.

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First of all, let's make sure we're discussing the same issue. I am not discussing legalities at the moment. I am discussing God's will for the church.

Regarding that will, our Apostle Paul made it clear.
Paul is speaking about cultural issues. As Adam Clarke's commentary on the verse says, "In Act 16:3, we find that for the sake of the unconverted Jews he circumcised Timothy." But because of the Gentiles, Paul also lived among them, when even Peter drew himself away (and was rebuked for it). Apparently, Christians are required to mix with other cultures.

I have to admit that I am troubled by what you say. You speak about Christians from different cultures having "different values." Do we not all worship the same Lord Jesus Christ? Do we not read the same Holy Scriptures? How, then, can we have different values?

Finally, you said, "The color of somebodies skin doesn't have anything to do with it." But Msgstephen has been speaking about so-called "white culture." Yet by what you say, it seems to me that you would consider a black American to be part of your culture, and a white Eastern European to be of a different culture. Are you certain that you are discussing cultural issues rather than racial ones?

rosenherman said:

Newcomers to a country left their culture when the left their country. The should accept the society they have moved into. They shouldn't try to change it. The problem isn't "some poor Muslim immigrant" being forced to say Merry Christmas, it is a Christian not being allowed to say it.
If immigrants don't want to assimilate, they should not try to change the culture to fit them.

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It seems that I really am addressing a different issue than most others here. Most of you are concerned about Muslim culture and Western culture. But you must all realize that the Christian church is comprised of many different cultures. Whatever we all think of Muslim culture, we must never make the mistake of thinking that Western culture and Christian culture are the same thing. The point I've been trying to make in the past several posts is that the church of God and Christ is comprised of many different cultures, and it is of the utmost importance that all Christians embrace every culture which exists within the church. Do you agree?

arunma said:

It seems that I really am addressing a different issue than most others here. Most of you are concerned about Muslim culture and Western culture. But you must all realize that the Christian church is comprised of many different cultures. Whatever we all think of Muslim culture, we must never make the mistake of thinking that Western culture and Christian culture are the same thing. The point I've been trying to make in the past several posts is that the church of God and Christ is comprised of many different cultures, and it is of the utmost importance that all Christians embrace every culture which exists within the church. Do you agree?

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arunma, I would imagine that Muslim (well, what people usually think of when they hear "Muslim culture) would not differ all that much from say, Arab Christian culture? Or, would a Christian in India identify himself as a different culture than a Hindu in India? I would think that differences wouldn't not be great (although I may of course me wrong since I'm not familiar with those areas).

rosenherman said:

Newcomers to a country left their culture when the left their country. The should accept the society they have moved into. They shouldn't try to change it. The problem isn't "some poor Muslim immigrant" being forced to say Merry Christmas, it is a Christian not being allowed to say it.
If immigrants don't want to assimilate, they should not try to change the culture to fit them.

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no, they didnt leave their culture, they left their country. and no immigrants are not trying to make the country they move to change.

so wrong wrong wrong and wrong again.

sethad said:

no, they didnt leave their culture, they left their country. and no immigrants are not trying to make the country they move to change.

so wrong wrong wrong and wrong again.

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Immigrants did leave their culture, that is part of the country they left. They are trying to make themselves more comfortable by making their new surroundings feel more like their old ones.

rosenherman said:

Immigrants did leave their culture, that is part of the country they left. They are trying to make themselves more comfortable by making their new surroundings feel more like their old ones.

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one more time:

they left their country, not their culture.

Did white people leave their culture behind and change to Native American culture when they came to America? hah...I think not.

sethad said:

one more time:

they left their country, not their culture.

Did white people leave their culture behind and change to Native American culture when they came to America? hah...I think not.

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excellent point!

sethad said:

one more time:

they left their country, not their culture.

Did white people leave their culture behind and change to Native American culture when they came to America? hah...I think not.

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And again; they left their culture when they left their country. The indians that were here when the Europeans got here either adopted their lifestyle or stayed in their own culture. The country was sparsely populated and the indians could chose. Now the country is densely populated and the vast majority of the citizens have a different culture then the one left behind by the immigrants. Since they chose to move here, they obviously see the superiority of the American culture and MUST adopt it.