Rachel weeping

[Kristos]

[BIBLE]
Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, was
in a furious rage, and he sent and killed all the male children in
Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under, according
to the time which he had ascertained from the wise men. Then was
fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Jeremiah: "A voice was heard in
Ramah, wailing and loud lamentation, Rachel weeping for her children;
she refused to be consoled, because they were no more."
[/BIBLE]

How could Rachel weep? She had been dead for over 400 years when Jeremiah wrote these words concerning the exile and for over 1000 years when they were repeated by Matthew concerning the slaughter of the innocents. If the dead are not aware of what is happening on earth, with the living, how could Rachel weep on account of these events?

 

[Chesterton]

Obviously both Jeremiah and Matthew were unabashed Traditionalist propagandists.

Jeremiah especially was a man ahead of his time: he was paganizing Christianity before there was Christianity.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I believe it could be a future prophecy concerning the 2 Nations of Israel and Judah, but not sure.

If we look back in Genesis we see Rachel gave birth to 2 sons, Joseph and Benjamin.[though her maidservant had 2 sons from her]

Benjamin was of the Nation of JUDAH after the split of the 12 Tribes and Rachel died shortly after his birth. It was interesting how Jacob changed the name of him from what Rachel named him.

Curiously, Joseph and Benjamin are both listed last in the book of Revelation which is not in order of the births of the original Tribes "Dan and Ephraim" are also missing.
Interesting thread!!

Matthew 2:18 A voice/sound in Ramah is heard, lamentation, and anquish much, Rachel lamenting the children of her and not she will to comforted that not they are.

Genesis 30:22And Elohiym is remembering Rachel and Elohiym is listening to her and He is opening her womb. 23 And she is becoming pregnant and giving birth a son, and she is saying, "Elohiym gathered up my reproach." 24 And she is calling his name Yowceph to say of "YHWH shall add to me a son, another."

Gene 35:18 And her soul is becoming to go forth of her that she died. And she is calling his name Ben-'Owniy; but/but his father called to him Binyamiyn. 19 And Rachel is dying and is being entombed in way of Ephrath, she Bethlehem.

 

[MamaZ]

Notice that is was stated as Rachael and not Leah.. Now trace back Christ from the geneology.

 

[DArceri]

[bible]
Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, was
in a furious rage, and he sent and killed all the male children in
Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under, according
to the time which he had ascertained from the wise men. Then was
fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Jeremiah: "A voice was heard in
Ramah, wailing and loud lamentation, Rachel weeping for her children;
she refused to be consoled, because they were no more."
[/bible]

How could Rachel weep? She had been dead for over 400 years when Jeremiah wrote these words concerning the exile and for over 1000 years when they were repeated by Matthew concerning the slaughter of the innocents. If the dead are not aware of what is happening on earth, with the living, how could Rachel weep on account of these events?

YES...ALL the saints that are in the presence of the Lord, as we speak, are made aware of all that the Lord wills. HOWEVER, THIS IS NOT A VERSE THAT PROOVES THEY CAN BE PRAYED TO. The Book of Revelation also has saints aware and mourning for justice......What this does proove is that there is no such thing as 'soul sleep' like some believe. Saints souls are alive, awake, and present with the LORD awaiting the final day of judgement where every knee will bow to the King of Kings ...Hallelujah.


PEACE.

 

[Thekla]

YES...ALL the saints that are in the presence of the Lord, as we speak, are made aware of all that the Lord wills. HOWEVER, THIS IS NOT A VERSE THAT PROOVES THEY CAN BE PRAYED TO. The Book of Revelation also has saints aware and mourning for justice......What this does proove is that there is no such thing as 'soul sleep' like some believe. Saints souls are alive, awake, and present with the LORD awaiting the final day of judgement where every knee will bow to the King of Kings ...Hallelujah.


PEACE.

And for thousands of years (since the time of Joseph being sold into Egypt)
the Jews have gone to her tomb requesting her intercession. Where in the NT is this condemned ?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

And for thousands of years (since the time of Joseph being sold into Egypt)
the Jews have gone to her tomb requesting her intercession. Where in the NT is this condemned ?

The Jews also wail at the wailing wall day after day.......

Luke 19:41 And as He nears, beholding the City and He laments on Her 42 saying "that if thou-knew and thou, even indeed in the day this, the toward Peace of thee, now yet it was Hid from thy eyes.
43 That shall be arriving days upon thee, and thy Enemies shall be casting up a siege-work to thee, and shall be encompassing thee, and pressing thee every which place

Reve 18:9 and shall be lamenting and shall be wailing over Her the kings of the land, the ones with her fornicating and indulging, whenever they may be observing the smoke of the fireing of Her

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7164949&page=2
DO NOT WEEP!!!!! The Great City

 

[Kristos]

YES...ALL the saints that are in the presence of the Lord, as we speak, are made aware of all that the Lord wills. HOWEVER, THIS IS NOT A VERSE THAT PROOVES THEY CAN BE PRAYED TO. The Book of Revelation also has saints aware and mourning for justice......What this does proove is that there is no such thing as 'soul sleep' like some believe. Saints souls are alive, awake, and present with the LORD awaiting the final day of judgement where every knee will bow to the King of Kings ...Hallelujah.


PEACE.

I didn't say anything about praying to saints.

Others have stated in other thread that since the dead (asleep - whatever you want to call it) are not aware of what is happening with the living in this world. This verse seems to contradict that claim. You seem to agree with me.

 

[DArceri]

And for thousands of years (since the time of Joseph being sold into Egypt)
the Jews have gone to her tomb requesting her intercession. Where in the NT is this condemned ?

Is this in scripture? Where do we see this at?

 

[Thekla]

Is this in scripture? Where do we see this at?

According to a note on practices and interpretation in a Jewish transl. of the Masoretic OT. Erroneous "traditions" are condemned in the Gospels by Christ. Likewise, the erroneous practices of those in the Churches addressed in the epistles are corrected.

 

[DArceri]

And for thousands of years (since the time of Joseph being sold into Egypt)
the Jews have gone to her tomb requesting her intercession.

According to a note on practices and interpretation in a Jewish transl. of the Masoretic OT. Erroneous "traditions" are condemned in the Gospels by Christ. Likewise, the erroneous practices of those in the Churches addressed in the epistles are corrected.

HMMM, So you are saying that traditional practices that became sssoooooo important to the Jews as far back as Moses writings, are not even mentioned in scripture as a practice once. Not one verse in over a 1000 years and of multiple writers? I don't think so Thekla, good luck with your so called traditions outside of scripture.

 

[Thekla]

HMMM, So you are saying that traditional practices that became sssoooooo important to the Jews as far back as Moses writings, are not even mentioned in scripture as a practice once. Not one verse in over a 1000 years and of multiple writers? I don't think so Thekla, good luck with your so called traditions outside of scripture.

Don't take it up with me

Your beef is with Rabbi Nosson Scherman et. al., the Editors.

 

[DArceri]

Don't take it up with me

Your beef is with Rabbi Nosson Scherman et. al., the Editors.

Wow, actually, my beef now is with those who want to believe a rabbi over what scripture says. They also don't beleive that Jesus is God. You care to accept that tradition?

 

[Thekla]

Wow, actually, my beef now is with those who want to believe a rabbi over what scripture says. They also don't beleive that Jesus is God. You care to accept that tradition?

Its an historical reference in a Masoretic OT. This bit of history is not dependent on one's view of Christ. History is history.

Anyway, if thats your feeling, you should consider using the LXX as your OT.

 

[DArceri]

Its an historical reference in a Masoretic OT. This bit of history is not dependent on one's view of Christ. History is history.

Anyway, if thats your feeling, you should consider using the LXX as your OT.

But Jews are not saved. They are misled in a lot of things. Especially their own traditions. I can't beleive you are even going there. There traditions are condemning them and you want to rely on them? Yikes.

 

[Thekla]

But Jews are not saved. They are misled in a lot of things. Especially their own traditions. I can't beleive you are even going there. There traditions are condemning them and you want to rely on them? Yikes.

Do all their traditions condemn them ?
I don't recall Christ ever saying that !

In fact, Christ makes specific references to particular traditions. Likewise the apostles in Acts. It is a Jewish tradition to pray the Psalms. I don't find a condemnation of that in the NT.

I am relying on a Jewish source for Jewish history. I use the LXX for the OT, but have a Masoretic OT for reference, as most non-EO/OO rely on the Masoretic text.

 

[DArceri]

Do all their traditions condemn them ?
I don't recall Christ ever saying that !

In fact, Christ makes specific references to particular traditions. Likewise the apostles in Acts. It is a Jewish tradition to pray the Psalms. I don't find a condemnation of that in the NT.

I am relying on a Jewish source for Jewish history. I use the LXX for the OT, but have a Masoretic OT for reference, as most non-EO/OO rely on the Masoretic text.

Again, if that tradition was soooo important to the Jews of old, it would be in scripture. the Scribes would have at least something said on the topic of intercession of the dead. So keep on defending their traditions instead of defending scripture...I could care less what u want to beleive over scripture.

 

[MamaZ]

Jesus says you have heard it said but I say unto you.

 

[Kristos]

Again, if that tradition was soooo important to the Jews of old, it would be in scripture. the Scribes would have at least something said on the topic of intercession of the dead. So keep on defending their traditions instead of defending scripture...I could care less what u want to beleive over scripture.

So, what do you make of the OP then?

Rachel is dead, yes?
Somehow she is aware of the killing of the innocents, yes?
She weeps, laments aloud, yes?
Her voice is heard, yes?

How do you explain this?

 

[DArceri]

So, what do you make of the OP then?

Rachel is dead, yes?
Somehow she is aware of the killing of the innocents, yes?
She weeps, laments aloud, yes?
Her voice is heard, yes?

How do you explain this?

Yes, even Moses and Elijah were manifested as spirits and spoke before the eyes of Peter, James, and John on the Mount with Jesus. God allows spirits and even angels to manifest themselves in some recognizable form to be seen or to be heard. This happens throughout scripture. But this still does not say anything about praying to them. Anyway, yes I told you in post 5 that I beleive scripture proves their is no such thing as 'soul sleep' as some suggest. Spirits are alive and aware of all that the Lord reveals to them, for they are neither omniscient nor omnipresent. These are attributes only held by God Himself.