• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Rabbits in the Precambrian

Wedjat

Spirited Apostate
Aug 8, 2009
2,673
145
Home sweet home
✟26,307.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
SplitRock said it on a different thread but I'd like to start a new discussion on it.
All good scientific theory is falsifiable. For everything there is a hypothetical situation that would necessitate that scientists re-think or throw away the entire concept. A planet sized chunk of rock coming within a few thousand meters from earth without affecting it's orbit, or tides, would falsify the theory of gravity. J.B.S Haldane once famously said that rabbit fossils found in the Precambrian would falsify evolution.
This necessity for a hypothetical falsification is to keep worthless ideas out of science. Example, do I perceive in my mind colors differently from how you perceive them? If I were to look into your head, would your perception of the world be the same as mine, or would you see colors differently. There is no way to know because from childhood we are taught, "this is red" and "this is light" regardless of how we perceive it in our own mind. But this is a worthless concept because there is no way to disprove it. There is no way that one could actually tell whether or not someone models the world differently from you, so there is no point looking into it. The same can be said for the invisible pink unicorn or russels teapot, you cant disprove it exists, there is no conceivable way you could, and therefore the concept is useless in practical application.
So what about creationism is falsifiable? AV himself said that even if a complete fossil history of evolution beginning with protocells and ending with humans were to come up, he would still deny it on principle. So please tell us, what evidence could ever, hypothetically, no matter how fantastical (remember planet sized rocks a few thousand meters from earth), could possibly disprove creationism, because without that, for practical purposes we are required to regard it as worthless.
 

laconicstudent

Well-Known Member
Sep 25, 2009
11,671
720
✟16,224.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
First off. Interesting premise.

AV himself said that even if a complete fossil history of evolution beginning with protocells and ending with humans were to come up, he would still deny it on principle.

I personally am of the opinion that AV is really just trolling. He's just a sock account made by another user in order to mock hardcore right wing fundamentalism and highlight just how stupid a lot of what Creationists and extreme conservatives say is.


So please tell us, what evidence could ever, hypothetically, no matter how fantastical (remember planet sized rocks a few thousand meters from earth), could possibly disprove creationism, because without that, for practical purposes we are required to regard it as worthless.


Well. If we could invent time travel, we could send back observers. That would prove the issue one way or another beyond all doubt.
 
Upvote 0

Wedjat

Spirited Apostate
Aug 8, 2009
2,673
145
Home sweet home
✟26,307.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
If AV's a troll, he's the most dedicated one there is, personally I've just come to the conclusion that he's just an incredibly amusing diversion.

Are you a creationist? Would that do it for you?
I think in that same thread someone brought up the time machine, and someone else said that creationists would just call it "the devil's theater" that tricks us into seeing a false past. Either that or they could argue some other way around it, like the time machine actually went to a different reality, not a different time, or something like that.

No, actually I would like a creationist to answer this one, is there anything, anything at all that you could think of happening, that would make you abandon your beliefs about God creating the universe exactly as it say's in Genesis.
 
Upvote 0

catzrfluffy

i come bearing .gifs
Sep 4, 2009
2,291
827
palisades park
✟47,660.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Then again, ToE is constantly undergoing revision with every new discovery on the fossil record. Yet this is not counted as falsifying the theory, but improving it.
Therefore, surely interpretation of the biblical creation is allowed to be improved?
I suppose if you could take one of the more I suppose large and physically testable theories of creationism, such as where are the "springs of the great deep"? (Genesis 7:11) and prove they were never there or something, maybe then that would cast doubt on the accuracy of such statements in the bible.
This is more just a guess though, I'm not actually that familiar with creationism science.
 
Upvote 0

laconicstudent

Well-Known Member
Sep 25, 2009
11,671
720
✟16,224.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
I hate to say this Wedjat, but you might have a problem there. As far as I can tell, Dad and AV are the only actual Creationists here.... And they consider science evil. If the Bible said that electricity was the direct power of God (as opposed to electron flow) they'd believe it.

And all evidence to the contrary is the work of the Devil!
 
Upvote 0

laconicstudent

Well-Known Member
Sep 25, 2009
11,671
720
✟16,224.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
I'm not actually that familiar with creationism science.

Lol catz.... its generally held to not exist. I have NEVER had anyone who could manage to cite a single scientific study by a "Creation Researcher"
 
Upvote 0

Wedjat

Spirited Apostate
Aug 8, 2009
2,673
145
Home sweet home
✟26,307.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
I hate to say this Wedjat, but you might have a problem there. As far as I can tell, Dad and AV are the only actual Creationists here.... And they consider science evil. If the Bible said that electricity was the direct power of God (as opposed to electron flow) they'd believe it.

And all evidence to the contrary is the work of the Devil!

Ouch, I think you might actually have me there, I do see a few others on here from time to time, but mostly yeah, it's just AV and Dad.
And I've decided that Dad is crazy, and AV has practically already given his answer (ie. nothing and he doesn't actually care/understand that that damages his position more than it helps it). So what am I left with?
 
Upvote 0

Wedjat

Spirited Apostate
Aug 8, 2009
2,673
145
Home sweet home
✟26,307.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Then again, ToE is constantly undergoing revision with every new discovery on the fossil record. Yet this is not counted as falsifying the theory, but improving it.
Therefore, surely interpretation of the biblical creation is allowed to be improved?
I suppose if you could take one of the more I suppose large and physically testable theories of creationism, such as where are the "springs of the great deep"? (Genesis 7:11) and prove they were never there or something, maybe then that would cast doubt on the accuracy of such statements in the bible.
This is more just a guess though, I'm not actually that familiar with creationism science.

The revision that ToE goes under is additive. We discover new evidence/technology/procedures then compare them to the existing evidence. When they fit, we add them along with the rest of the existing evidence that new evidence is compared against, when they don't... Hey I've actually never heard of a time when it didn't, mind providing a source?

Biblical creation could be improved upon if they actually considered all the evidence and fit the conclusion to the facts rather than the other way around. If it did, I imagine it would end up being a lot like theistic evolution.
As for "springs of the great deep" and all, the bible wasn't, nor ever is very specific about, well most anything. They could refer to underground springs just as much as they do to deep sea vents. The main stuff that you would have to disprove is really the 6-day stuff. Could you disprove that light was made first, then the sun, then the stars? We know today that you need something to produce light before you can have light. We also know that many stars formed before our sun. We know this because of distances, spectrometers, the speed of light, and observation of the night sky. None of this phases creationists despite the fact that it reasonably should. What I'm asking is whether there is anything that would make them give it up.
 
Upvote 0

catzrfluffy

i come bearing .gifs
Sep 4, 2009
2,291
827
palisades park
✟47,660.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Lol catz.... its generally held to not exist. I have NEVER had anyone who could manage to cite a single scientific study by a "Creation Researcher"
Creationist science does exist. I think it needs a more coherent theory though, I'm sure there's one out there.
I generally don't cite from non-secular sites because I suspect it might sadly not be accepted as true on that basis alone.
But here is a study, perhaps a spurious one, but a study, nonetheless:
RATE group reveals exciting breakthroughs!
Doesn?t Carbon-14 Dating Disprove the Bible? - Answers in Genesis
Also was there a greater amount of water high up in the earth's atmosphere in the past? Another part of the biblical account - provable/disprovable?
 
Upvote 0

laconicstudent

Well-Known Member
Sep 25, 2009
11,671
720
✟16,224.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Creationist science does exist. I think it needs a more coherent theory though, I'm sure there's one out there.
I generally don't cite from non-secular sites because I suspect it might sadly not be accepted as true on that basis alone.
But here is a study, perhaps a spurious one, but a study, nonetheless:
RATE group reveals exciting breakthroughs!
Doesn?t Carbon-14 Dating Disprove the Bible? - Answers in Genesis
Also was there a greater amount of water high up in the earth's atmosphere in the past? Another part of the biblical account - provable/disprovable?


Ok, you apparently don't understand what I mean, which is understandable since I am working towards a Bachelor of Science and you are not.

"Research" refers to an experiment.... something published in a peer-reviewed periodical. Examples include Nature, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Science, American Journal of Human Genetics, Journal of Neurophysiology and Cognitive, Affective and Behavioral Neuroscience. Just to name a few.

Answers in Genesis.org and Creation Ministries International do not count. This isn't prejudice, this is simply holding "creation research" to the same standards as everyone else.
 
Upvote 0

Wedjat

Spirited Apostate
Aug 8, 2009
2,673
145
Home sweet home
✟26,307.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Just because they call themselves science doesn't mean it's so.
Answers in Genesis isn't a credible scientific source. I'm not saying that just because I won't accept a non-secular source, I'm saying that because their assertions have been disproven time and time again, also none of their work is done on their own. They don't do experiments, they don't get peer reviewed, they compile and quote mine so the articles that they wright fit their view. (example on the carbon dating, they say it is not accurate because scientists make the assumption that the carbon ratio in the atmosphere has alway's been the same. In fact scientists know that the ratio has changed in the past (it used to be higher) and so factor that into their models when dating something) Answers in Genesis is consistantly misleading.
The RATE "breakthrough" might be interesting if you could provide a secular source. Personally the article looks a little overplayed.
 
Upvote 0

catzrfluffy

i come bearing .gifs
Sep 4, 2009
2,291
827
palisades park
✟47,660.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The revision that ToE goes under is additive. We discover new evidence/technology/procedures then compare them to the existing evidence. When they fit, we add them along with the rest of the existing evidence that new evidence is compared against, when they don't... Hey I've actually never heard of a time when it didn't, mind providing a source?
University of Chicago study overturns conventional theory in evolution
Fossil Find Challenges Evolutionary Theory
University of Leicester - Fossil Fish Challenge Gene Theory
Fossil finds change theory of evolution - Telegraph
Fossils Challenge Theory of Rapid Animal Evolution in Cambrian
Fossil discovery challenges NZ evolution theory. 16/12/2006. ABC News Online
Fossil in China Challenges `Out of Africa' Theory of Evolution - Bloomberg.com
News - Science: Ape fossil 'challenges evolutionary theory'
Fossil Find Shakes Up Evolution Timeline - Science & Health News Summaries | Newser
Fossil Discovery Threatens Theory of Birds' Evolution - The New York Times
"Research" refers to an experiment.... something published in a peer-reviewed periodical. Examples include Nature, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Science, American Journal of Human Genetics, Journal of Neurophysiology and Cognitive, Affective and Behavioral Neuroscience. Just to name a few.
But, honest question, would scientists actually let someone with creationist views, or at least skeptical-about-evolution views, say anything in a scientific peer-reviewed journal? Or even just intelligent design views?
 
Upvote 0

Wedjat

Spirited Apostate
Aug 8, 2009
2,673
145
Home sweet home
✟26,307.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
As for there being more water in the upper atmosphere, to my knowledge there has never been any indication that there was. The burden of proof lies on the person making the assertion, otherwise it just becomes another un-falsifiable conjecture.

So catz, your profile say's YEC. What evidence would need to arise, not what evidence would need to be disproven, but what evidence could possibly, concievably come up that would force you to drop the notion of creationism.
 
Upvote 0

catzrfluffy

i come bearing .gifs
Sep 4, 2009
2,291
827
palisades park
✟47,660.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Just because they call themselves science doesn't mean it's so.
Answers in Genesis isn't a credible scientific source. I'm not saying that just because I won't accept a non-secular source, I'm saying that because their assertions have been disproven time and time again, also none of their work is done on their own.
What about ID? Uncommon Descent - Serving the Intelligent Design Community I've found it a good site.
 
Upvote 0

laconicstudent

Well-Known Member
Sep 25, 2009
11,671
720
✟16,224.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat

Do you realize that those articles refer to discoveries which require adjusting evolutionary theory, or require us to change something like our theories on how birds evolved? They actually do not disprove evolution itself.

Next time, please actually read stuff before you link it.

But, honest question, would scientists actually let someone with creationist views, or at least skeptical-about-evolution views, say anything in a scientific peer-reviewed journal? Or even just intelligent design views?

Yes. If it was opinion piece, they actually publish the opinions of Intelligent Design advocates now and again, I know I've seen a few in Nature

But to get actual articles in you need to have actually done a study, with controlled conditions, defined variables, data, results. It needs to be something that could be repeated for verification. None of them have ever done any of this.
 
Upvote 0

catzrfluffy

i come bearing .gifs
Sep 4, 2009
2,291
827
palisades park
✟47,660.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
So catz, your profile say's YEC. What evidence would need to arise, not what evidence would need to be disproven, but what evidence could possibly, concievably come up that would force you to drop the notion of creationism.
Sneaky you. Actually I veer between most of those views. I would've not put anything, but once you click the dot doesn't disappear.
A cell would have to pop up by random observed chance out of all it's component atoms.
Or perhaps this gap would have to be (unspuriously) filled:
1608406557_10092009_1.bmp
 
Upvote 0

laconicstudent

Well-Known Member
Sep 25, 2009
11,671
720
✟16,224.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Or perhaps this gap would have to be (unspuriously) filled:
1608406557_10092009_1.bmp

Honestly, I appreciate that. Thats a much more reasonable demand then most. I would also be interested in having the missing link there found. It'd be interesting.

And the reason your post is so much more reasonable is cause, unlike Dad and AV, you didn't post the tiresome "everything that contradicts my literal interpretation of the Bible is evil! And therefore wrong! Nothing will convince me!"
 
Upvote 0

catzrfluffy

i come bearing .gifs
Sep 4, 2009
2,291
827
palisades park
✟47,660.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Do you realize that those articles refer to discoveries which require adjusting evolutionary theory, or require us to change something like our theories on how birds evolved? They actually do not disprove evolution itself.
The question was not things that disproved it, but things that didn't fit into the theory at the time, that's what I answered.
 
Upvote 0
A

Alunyel

Guest
Then again, ToE is constantly undergoing revision with every new discovery on the fossil record. Yet this is not counted as falsifying the theory, but improving it.

That's because the theory does get improved. Finding a fossil that helps map out an animal's evolutionary ancestry, or helps revise an existing one to make it more accurate is very different from a find that falsifies evolution.

Therefore, surely interpretation of the biblical creation is allowed to be improved?

Of course it should be improved. It should be improved to such an extent that it no longer resembles ancient bronze age mythology, and steps in line with what the evidence says.


I suppose if you could take one of the more I suppose large and physically testable theories of creationism, such as where are the "springs of the great deep"? (Genesis 7:11) and prove they were never there or something, maybe then that would cast doubt on the accuracy of such statements in the bible.

Every time someone tries to prove creationism beyond all reasonable doubt, they only end up falsifying it. There's literally so much evidence falsifying it, and absolutely none that supports it.

This is more just a guess though, I'm not actually that familiar with creationism science.

Creation science is an oxymoron. Creation is based on religion, and isn't scientific in the least.
 
Upvote 0

catzrfluffy

i come bearing .gifs
Sep 4, 2009
2,291
827
palisades park
✟47,660.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Honestly, I appreciate that. Thats a much more reasonable demand then most. I would also be interested in having the missing link there found. It'd be interesting.
what if it's never found?

And the reason your post is so much more reasonable is cause, unlike Dad and AV, you didn't post the tiresome "everything that contradicts my literal interpretation of the Bible is evil! And therefore wrong! Nothing will convince me!"
What do you read Genesis as?
 
Upvote 0