Rabbis...

Sorry anisavta....I hung around messianic circles a while myself, and Simchat Torah's portrayal is the more accurate version in my experience too. I was encouraged to wear a tallit and kippa upon joining the messianic congregation in worship, even though I told them I was not Jewish. Apparently, even EA has seen this kind of thing too...why not admit there is a problem? There's no shame in that at all...unless losing an internet debate is that shameful.

Maybe it's time instead of rolling our eyes and declaring war on the Messianic believers who truly want to do it right but don't know how to sit down one on one and explain in love why we do what we do and what HaShem expects.
I'm dang tired of everyone shooting the wounded instead of healing them.

And in admitting there is a problem will serve what purpose?
I reiterate what I said above.

simchat_torah said:

I've known two Rabbis who became Messianic/Christian. Neither of them continued to call themselves "Rabbis". Otherwise, of the dozens and dozens and dozens of "Messianic Rabbis" not one of them that I ever encountered was an actual Rabbi. It was a title they loosely tossed around. I wish Messianics understood how offensive that can be to the very community they wish to convert to their Messianic ideas.

Click to expand...

That is interesting. I can understand why a Rabbi who becomes a Christian would no longer call himself a Rabbi. It would not be correct. The church that I meet with does not have any "pastors" or "reverends" or "priests", just elders and that is not a title for them, just what they are. We do have several men who have been to seminary and were "pastors" or whatever in denominational Christianity in the past, but once they meet with us, they drop the title willingly and would not go by it again. I also know an ex-priest and a couple of ex-nuns who have met with our church, but they do not go by any title from that either.
I think that a Rabbi would certainly understand how offensive it would be to keep using that title and if they are now Christians, it is good that they dropped it.

visionary said:

IT is a title... for a position in which they are called to fulfill... who are we to declare that they are not called...

I find more offense with the term Reverend.. like we are suppose to revere them for their position with God. ...eeeck

Click to expand...

I find that title offensive as well.

simchat_torah said:

Nope. Not at all.

Wearing a Tallit is significant in that it represents the completion of Bar/Bat Mitzvah. However, in Messianic circles nearly everyone wears one. Moreover, I've hardly met a Messianic who even knows what the knots in the tzitzit represent. I've seen dozens of Messianics who wear tzitzit on their belt loops no less! How is that even a "corner of the garment"???

I could go on and on, but you get the picture. In general, this random people group (messianics in this case) are abusing an ancient tradition they barely understand... of course that will be seen as offensive to the Jewish people. It is sad how little Messianics consider "the Jew" they attempt to emulate.

Click to expand...

I was raised in Reform Judaism and while many of the men would don a yarmuke for services, I doubt that many of them knew why they had to wear one. I asked my cousin a few years ago why he wore one and he said "because that is what you are supposed to do." Perhaps he knows the answer now - my aunt told me he "got religious" and is now going to a different synagogue - either orthodox or conservative.

Anyway, anisavta, admitting that there is a problem may help those who are misled or who misunderstand the word of God to turn to Him and find out for themselves what He really wants for them to do. If we are not challenged, we do not grow.

Good post, christianmomof3.

anisavta said:

And in admitting there is a problem will serve what purpose?
I reiterate what I said above.

Click to expand...

I don't know...maybe addressing the problem? By pretending it doesn't exist, it'll never get rectified will it?

christianmomof3 said:

Anyway, anisavta, admitting that there is a problem may help those who are misled or who misunderstand the word of God to turn to Him and find out for themselves what He really wants for them to do. If we are not challenged, we do not grow.

Click to expand...

And I agree with you CMo3 discussing what problems there are and how to face them in the right setting among those who want to see constructive change is a good thing. And the UMJC conventions and Rabbi and Leadership retreats are just the place to do it.
But in this setting I see no constructive reason. The reason we are having this discussion in the first place is to once again show that those who believe in Yeshua are no longer Jewish and should not continue to follow traditions and even mitzvot. It's not to help the body of believers be all they can be - it is to tear down and shame.

unless losing an internet debate is that shameful.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, that's what it usually boils down to.

I doubt that many of them knew why they had to wear one.

Click to expand...

Understanding what you're doing is only a small portion of the issue. The larger issue is that most Messianics merely do things simply because its a Jewish expression.

I'm not going to get into a shouting match with you concerning who I know and what they do.

Click to expand...

I'm not speaking about you personally. I'm speaking about the Messianic movement as a whole.

My words are aimed at the movement, not you as an individual.

I'm dang tired of everyone shooting the wounded instead of healing them.

Click to expand...

No one is shooting down individuals. However, the bigger problem is that the movement itself propagates these ideals, which is sad.

The reason we are having this discussion in the first place is to once again show that those who believe in Yeshua are no longer Jewish and should not continue to follow traditions and even mitzvot.

Click to expand...

I don't think anyone's ever said that. However, I think the Jews have issue with Gentiles who run around copycating Jewish practices simply because the tradition *is* Jewish.

No one has said you lose your Jewish heritage simply because you follow another set of ideals. No one.

And in admitting there is a problem will serve what purpose?

Click to expand...

1) Keep from offending those you are trying to reach out to.
2) Understanding leads to wisdom.
3) Until one understands where they have diverted from the path they will never get back "on track"
etc etc etc
I could give you dozens of reasons.

To continue in willful blind ignorance will only lead to very bad places (if one hasn't already arrived at a bad place).

Apparently, even EA has seen this kind of thing too

Click to expand...

Hey Nikolai, what is "EA"?

simchat_torah said:

Hey Nikolai, what is "EA"?

Click to expand...

The Stone of Avram (Eben Abram)... I take it... anyway.

Is that an organization? Or reference to the poster here?

simchat_torah said:

Is that an organization? Or reference to the poster here?

Click to expand...

The poster here, if my guess is correct.

anisavta said:

And I agree with you CMo3 discussing what problems there are and how to face them in the right setting among those who want to see constructive change is a good thing. And the UMJC conventions and Rabbi and Leadership retreats are just the place to do it.
But in this setting I see no constructive reason. The reason we are having this discussion in the first place is to once again show that those who believe in Yeshua are no longer Jewish and should not continue to follow traditions and even mitzvot. It's not to help the body of believers be all they can be - it is to tear down and shame.

Click to expand...

I am sorry that you feel that people are attacking your beliefs. I do not think that is their intent, at least I hope not, but it is difficult to know on a message board. I don't think anyone has any problem with Jewish believers who were raised practicing Jewish practices continuing those Jewish practices after they believe in Christ if they chose to do so. If I understand it correctly, what posters have objected to is gentiles who have joined the MJ religion who then dress up like Jews and take on Jewish practices.

My beliefs are not being attacked. Thanks for your concern (I think?)
Here's the issue I see -
First, things are so convoluted. We have this title of "Messianics" which implies "those mixed up Messianics". What are Messianics? It is an organization of both Jews and Gentiles who have chosen to follow Hebraic expression in their pursuit of G~d through Yeshua (Jesus) the Messiah (Christ).
It is the breaking down of the hostility of Jews and Gentiles. Eph. 2:13-20
It is being grafted into the Olive Tree. Rom. 11
And so here is the dilemma -
A Jew who finds Messiah has the choice of giving up their Jewish identity, style of worship, traditions and even language and becoming a "Christian". They now only identify in Greek mindset and language. They are Christians. They worship Christ. On Sunday.They attend church. Their holidays are Christmas, Easter. They eat ham sandwiches and pork tenderloins. And some now carry rosaries. Or the other choice is attending a Messianic synagogue or a Messianic fellowship where they can still express themselves as Jews.
A Gentile who does not want the trappings of a Greek mindset church setting also wants a place to express themselves and worship the G~d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob instead of Jerome, Justin Martyr and Mary. But now they face this dilemma. They are allowed to participate only at a distance. According to some they can look but not touch. They have been told they are grafted into the olive tree, they are "one new man" with Yeshua and their Jewish brethren, but they are not allowed to participate. They are still outside in the court of the Gentile. Which supposedly Yeshua broke down with His death and resurrection (if they believe Rav Sh'aul in Ephesians). Or they can go to a Messianic Synagogue or fellowship and feel they are accepted in.
So what do we do? Ban Messianic Jews from Jewish expression and religate them to churches only? Allow them to worship in a synagogue setting but have a bouncer at the door checking for er well evidence of circumcision? Allow both Jew and Gentile into a Messianic synagogue with a Jew or Non Jew section?
Or allow Messiah to do what He came to do - break down the wall of seperation and allow freedom of expression for all.
And as far as why we wear kippot (which really is tradition not scriptural) and talliot lets get out there and disciple not ridicule.
And how many non Messianic Jews really and I mean really know why they wear kippot and talliot and why they have mezzuzot on their doors? After bar/bat mitzvah (if they had proper training in the first place) isn't it pretty much every man/woman for his/her self as far as going on in Jewish life?

Anisavta, you're missing the point. In Christianity -of which the Messianics are a part-, Gentiles are not required to adopt Jewish observance nor is it necessarily proper to do so...Paul wrote on this rather extensively. Jew and Gentile are supposed to be one in Jesus, right? That means that they share a spiritual connection with God, not that Gentiles are now Jews or should for some reason adopt Jewish observance...while the law is not abolished it is not a burden any longer, nor incumbent upon Gentiles. Paul speaks out against those who would encourage Gentiles to do such things...and within the Messianic community, this kind of encouragement is commonplace.

By putting emphasis on observance I think many are taking away the foundation of Christianity which is Jesus...if a Gentile wants to worship as the first century Christians did, they should be made to realize that not all first century Christians worshipped like Jews, because not all were Jews, and those Gentiles who were being persuaded to adopt Jewish practice were rightly discouraged by Paul from doing this. Let me say it again, the foundation of Christianity is NOT the Torah, it is NOT observance, it is Jesus...Torah observance is for Jews

There's nothing wrong or dirty about the word "Christian"...I think you're having a mental block here about this. Christian is simply one who follows and believes Jesus is the messiah...what's wrong with that, really? Messianics don't like the stigma of being called a Christian because of some of the crimes committed in the name of Christ and within the realm of Christianity...fine. Then work to change that stigma...labels are not nearly as important as belief and action. The vast majority of Messianics are in firm agreement with the rest of Christians on the core issues -YHWH is God, Jesus is God, God's son, and the messiah, the Holy Spirit indwells all believers, and the salvation of the messiah is needed to erase sin and have eternal fellowship with God after death- to the outside observer, they are Christian in belief and practice -of which the principle practice of Christianity is evangelism-

You also seem to have angst about the term "Messianic"...why? So Torah True Jews aren't fans...it should be no big deal to you right? Why should it be? You have Jesus, right?

I don't want to speak for Jews...but seems to me that Jews aren't even a fraction as concerned about what kind of observance one follows after becoming a Christian...but rather that they've adopted Christian belief in the first place...but I get the feeling there is a lot of frustration because so many Gentiles within the Messianic movement claim to be Jews when they are not, and then go on to speak as a Jew for the Jewish people in Messianic/Christian circles...whether or not they are sincere is a case-by-case thing...people tried to convince me that I was Jewish because my grandparents were...if I hadn't done my research, I would have believed this...but many do and they're misled.

You still see everything as Jew and Gentile which for a Christian is inappropriate...

My feeling is that if a Gentile feels extreme compulsion to become truly Torah observant, they should convert....of course, I know that the Jewish posters here would disagree If they can't stomach the idea of leaving Jesus then they should embrace him and be happy as a Gentile...

I understand Anisavta's point. Paul has stated the wall between Jew and Gentile has been removed, one new man etc. But there is a wall between Gentile & Jewish MJs. Gentile MJ are not free to worship in the same manner as their Jewish MJ friends.

She is not saying Gentiles MUST follow the Torah but those that CHOSE to are given flack. Why must they convert when many traditional Jews believe a Jew in good standiing can not belive in Jesus, and wouldn't allow them to convert. Many of them feel that Jews who accept Jesus are not Jews anymore even though they share the same DNA, culture etc.
I can also see the Jewish POW. They were given certain instruction from Hashem to make them a separate people and when Gentiles observe the same instructions, they dilute their distinctiveness.

Anisavta, I agree with Nikolai. You seem to see "Christian" as a bad word or bad thing to be. A Christian is simply a follower of Christ. It does not mean that one has to only identify in Greek mindset and language, worship on Sunday, celebrate Christmas and Easter, eat ham sandwiches and pork tenderloins and carry rosaries. They can if they chose to, but that is not the only choice.
I don't do many of those things.
I do worship Christ because Christ is God and I worship God. God is triune - three/one. He is the Father, Son and Spirit, so I don't see why a Jew who has "found Messiah" would not want to continue to worship the same God he/she has always worshipped only in a fuller way.
I also attend meetings of a church - which is not a religion or a building on the corner - the word "church" is from the Greek (sorry if there is something wrong with that language) word ekklesia which means "assembly of the called out ones" or "the believers". The church is the Body of Christ - all of the believers in Him.
I also meet on Sunday and Wednesday and Friday and sometimes on Thursday and sometimes on Saturday to worship. I think the more days of the week we gather together - in large or small groups, to enjoy Christ together, the better.
As Nikoli stated, there is no reason for gentiles to try to be Jews.
There is also no reason for Christians to decorate "Christmas trees" either. Some chose to do either or both and others don't.
The group I meet with does not celebrate Christmas or Easter as a group although some of the families who meet with us do that on their own with their families because it is a tradition that they grew up with and they wish to do so.
There are other options besides those found in Catholicism and denominational Christianity.
We can worship Christ in the way that He wants us to and not bring in the Traditions of men from the RCC and Christian religions AND also not bring in Jewish practices.
Here is an explanation from the group that I meet with http://www.lordsrecovery.org/index.html

They were given certain instruction from Hashem to make them a separate people and when Gentiles observe the same instructions, they dilute their distinctiveness.

Click to expand...

What is their distinctiveness supposed to be... is it not to be the nation of priests teaching us all how to obey God's commandments.. and instead they create a fence and say the commandments are only for the Jews.. gentiles can go and do ... anywhere and anything else. Not the objective God had in mind.

Exodus 19:3-6
-I even used a Christian translation to avoid accusations from certain people that those evil Rabbis changed the words-

3Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain, saying, "Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob and tell the sons of Israel:

4'You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you to Myself.

5'Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine;

6and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel.

Click to expand...

"

What do we have here?

God is speaking to Moses...

God tells Moses to say something to the people of Israel...

He tells Moses to remind them of God's great deeds...

Look at this:

'Now then, if you [meaning the people of Israel] will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant [which is to follow], then you [the people of Israel] shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine;

Click to expand...

Ok, so God has instructed Moses to tell the people of Israel that if they keep God's covenant, then they will be His possession...now, let's look at verse 6:

and you [the people of Israel] shall be to Me [God] a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel."

Click to expand...

This verse qualifies what it means to be His possession...they are to be to God a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.

God has laid out the terms of His covenant...now, the response of Israel in verse 8:

"All the people answered together and said, 'All that the LORD has spoken we will do!' And Moses brought back the words of the people to the LORD."

Click to expand...

Thus, the covenant between God and Israel is struck...no mention of worldwide adherence is mentioned.

It's a pretty straightforward set of verses. There's not a lot of room for hermeneutic gymnastics.