Quick Question (err.. hopefully)

[Shannonkish]

I have a quick question.. in trying to understand Messianic Judaism.

If the only difference, so I have heard is the MJs not only read the Torah (as I myself do.. cause it is the first 5 books of the old testament) but that they live it out and follow its laws..

If that is the case.. how do you account for the laws of sacrifice, etc... Since Jesus didn't come to abolish the laws (again as it was pointed out to me by others) would that not be a law that He didn't abolish or are there some laws that he did abolish?

Also, Do you believe that it is possible to be a a Christian while not following (maybe not the right word) all of the laws of the OT??

If the answer is no.. then what is the difference between MJs and the Pharisee's??

 

[KelsayDL]

I have a quick question.. in trying to understand Messianic Judaism.

If the only difference, so I have heard is the MJs not only read the Torah (as I myself do.. cause it is the first 5 books of the old testament) but that they live it out and follow its laws..

If that is the case.. how do you account for the laws of sacrifice, etc... Since Jesus didn't come to abolish the laws (again as it was pointed out to me by others) would that not be a law that He didn't abolish or are there some laws that he did abolish?

There is no temple to perform any type of sacrifices. The temple was the only ordained place for sacrifices.

There is no levitical priesthood today to perform such sacrifices.

Every single law was not meant for every person.

Also, Do you believe that it is possible to be a a Christian while not following (maybe not the right word) all of the laws of the OT??

It is most defianatelly possible to be christian and not observe Torah. In fact, it seems to me they go hand in hand.

Now, how do you account for the fact that the Apostles and the early church continued in their temple observances, including sacrifices as illustrated by the champion of the christian faith, Paul. It's right in the book of acts.

Also, concerning the coming Messianic kingdom, or if you prefer the millenial kingdom how do you account for the sacrifices taking place?

If circumcision does not matter then why does God say no foreigner uncircumcised in heart or flesh shall enter into my holy sanctuary?

What about where the word of the Lord given through Isaiah where he says the eaters of swines flesh and the abominable shall be consumed with fire?

What about the festivals and the sabbaths that were ordained by God that will be observed in the messianic kingdom?

All of these things are in the book christianity fondly calls old.

You asked for a quick answer. There are others that can explain it far better than I.

 

[yod]

Where do you get the idea that Jesus "abolished" the law?

He clearly said He did NOT come to abolish the law!

Paul speaks about the necessity for change the law in Galatians and Romans because of a new and better covenant. The blood of goats and bulls were only temporary sacrifices or they would not have to be repeated from year to year.

However, that does not make the law "void". These sacrifices are still required but are done through the finished work of the Lamb of God.

When you consider the Torah you should think about this:

The Lord has only given His government to one nation throughout all of history....and that was?

Israel of course!

He does not waste a breath. He does not speak empty words either.

Every single "jot and tittle" has a purpose. It is given for our protection We should seek to find the reason for even these sacrifices which are no longer possible or necessary. What is the Lord saying here? If the answer to all of the sacrifices are found in Jesus (and I believe they are) then why were there so many different kinds of sacrifices? What is the mystery in this?

Not that we MUST keep them. But we ignore the reason for giving them to our peril.

The law is good and perfect and useful for instruction in righteousness.

And it makes a good topic for discussion, too....

 

[Shannonkish]

I agree that Jesus didn't come to abolish the law.. I was quoting.. obivously not very well, something someone told me about what seperates Christians from MJs.

Does that make sense? It is 1 am.. so I am a little prone to not making sense.

 

[yod]

Only religion separates us....

we are One in Him

 

[SonWorshipper]

Many people believe that "becoming a Christian" means only that you have heard the Gospel preached and you believed, repented and were baptized. Some don't even believe in that much actually, and then they think that they are Safe" or "saved" and they have done their end of the deal or bargain. But it is far from that. That is but the first step on a long journey.



If you believe that you are a sinner and that G-d loved you so much that He manifested himself as a baby and grew up on this earth only to teach and die as the final sacrifice then don't you want to learn more about him?



When you are called by his name, be it Christian or Messianic shouldn't you know who it is you represent to the world? How do you find out? You read His word, His WHOLE word, from beginning ( Genesis, B'reSheet ( IN the Beginning) to the Revelation He gave after the completion of the sacrificial part of his salvation plan. This not only tells you who G-d is but how he wants you to live, He is the creator of each individual and like all designers, He knows best how His creation works. The general instructions for all are found in Torah. And for individual instruction, because we are each unique and created for a specific purpose in a specific time period, we need to go directly to him to show us exactly what it is He has for us to do, and how to do this for our particular situation. That way we are "interactive" with our Creator, not just followers of His manual. But instead we should be followers of His Emmanuel.

 

[Shannonkish]

I agree with that mostly..

In Acts 15 Paul is before the Jerusalem council discussing the matter of whether Gentiles (which is what I am... because I am not Jewish) had to follow Jewish religious rules and rituals in order to be "real Christians"

The proposition of Paul to the council:
15:19-20 "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. "

And later in verse 22 the council agress with Paul's proposition.

There are many verses in the Bible that confirm that Salvation comes by faith plus nothing... not works, nothing...

2 Th. 2:13; Luke 1:77; Eph. 2:8-9; John 1:12

While I definitely agree that there has to be a relationship with God.. God clearly shows us in his word that we can do nothing to earn our salvation... While, I follow the standards that God has placed in my life... I don't follow the customs or the laws of the OT...

Paul himself said that he was not under the law in 1 Cor. 9:20.

Gal. 3:23 says- But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.

Gal. 4:4-5 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Gal. 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

Gal 5:18-
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

 

[yod]

Who can disagree (credibly) with what the scriptures say?

But centuries of bad teaching taken out of context have led christians to interpret what Paul is saying in an incorrect way.

We are not "under the law" for salvation. It has never saved a single person throughout all of history. Even the Old Testament saints were saved by grace through faith....so what is Paul telling us?

He is trying to explain to a particular church that our righteousness is not found in keeping the law. Does this also mean that the law is made void or useless? In the words of this same Apostle Paul, "God forbid!"

We establish the law. We are not only hearers but doers of the law.

When Jesus said "I have come to fulfill the law" He is saying that He has come to give it the fullest meaning. It's proper interpretation. If anything, He made it harder by showing that our motives are as condemning as our actions.

The law has always been summed up by loving God and the second commandment is like unto it...loving your neighbor who is made in His image.

The Torah teaches us what He thinks righteousness for a society, a governement, and an individual is.

Since the "government" and "society" which Moses established is no longer applicable there is of necessity a change in the law. Yet, does that also mean that God has changed His mind about what a righteous government and society would be?

When Jesus returns to rule the earth we will see....

The Bible mentions observing those Feasts Days which the church has called "void" during that time, btw, but that is a different subject.

 

[KelsayDL]

The proposition of Paul to the council:
15:19-20 "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. "

Since when did this become the proposal of Paul?

These are the words of James.

13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

In fact, Paul didn't carry this message to the gentiles. He concluded that it's okay to partake of food offered to idols as long as it does not cause your *weak* brother to stumble.

But nevertheless, lets continue on and see what else JAMES said concerning the gentiles, after the 4 prohibitions, which ARE contained in the law themselves;

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

This is the most widely ignored verse of the bible in christianity. Well, the *new* testament at least.

Ask yourself if the law were no longer valid, then why did JAMES say that concerning the gentiles?

While I definitely agree that there has to be a relationship with God.. God clearly shows us in his word that we can do nothing to earn our salvation... While, I follow the standards that God has placed in my life... I don't follow the customs or the laws of the OT...

Interesting.

What did Jesus mean when he said;

Matthew 28:16-20
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Now I ask you, did Jesus teach that the so called *law* was done away with? Did he tell HIS apostles that the Torah was antiqueted and obsolete?

Or did he tell them this;

Matthew 23:1-12
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Surely that was part of the Lords message to be delivered unto the gentiles. I mean, he did say;

all things whatsoever I have commanded you

 

[Shannonkish]

okay.. I apologize for ever asking this question.. I never meant for it to lead to a debate.. I wanted to understand more... and I do...

I also understand that by your definition of a Christian I will never be able to fulfill it.. and therefore I will never be called a Christian in your site.. which actually doesn't matter because I have the assurance of salvation from God...

Nevertheless.. I will leave this topic... as to not cause anymore disagreement and arguing to continue.

 

[KelsayDL]

hmmm... I didn't mean to cause offense by asking questions for you to ponder. I apologize if I came across to abruptly.

Aren't they valid questions that all in the faith should ask themselves?

I've been a christian for 20yrs, yet I am starting to see errors in the doctrines that are held to be God breathed.

There seem to be two ways to view the new testament one way is the law has become irrelevant in the new covenant, with it's supporters citing the teachings of Paul as the foundation. I know this to be true as I partook of it for 20yrs.

The other is saying Yeshua did not come to start a new religion. He did not come to do away with the *law* which God the father calls LIFE and perpetual. And scriptures from the *old* testament are used to support this, along with the words of Jesus himself.

Jesus taught his apostles to observe the Torah, and he told them to go and teach all nations whatsoever he commanded them.

I see a great contradiction in what mainstream christianity teaches, when held up to the words of Jesus himself.

 

[ten-k]

seeds well planted!
God will water in
His own time

 

[sojeru]

shanon kish
shalom
this is the deal.
You ask and an answer is given.
Maybe you have need to pray that when an answer is given that you will recieve it and consider it.

As far as with the answers said- I believe they could have been given in a more teacheable manner and more full instead of looking at you as one who WANTS to do away with the word (TORAH) of HASHEM (G-D)

I know that you seek to understand.
At the same time- you have need to understand that this topic has been pushed in our faces many a times by those that dont believe- so EXPECT that there will be a fire to be blown out of our mouths, in this case, out of the tips of our fingers.

If you wish to see a debate going on now about the Torah "not under law" go here- you dont have to respond if you dont wish too, but i advise you to read and consider ALL that is shared there from both sides and pray. The real and True teaching will stand out as the STRONG MAN and you follow HIM.
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=52457&goto=newpost

shalom u'bracha