Questions on some beliefs

[Ranae of Cedar]

I have questions on salvation. Most others (like my daughter) says baptism, and taking Jesus as your savior is the way to salvation. I have been reading and looking into EO and somewhere someone said something that made sense to me about salvation.. that it is a daily, minute by minute decision,(backed by scripture) it is not just believing that Jesus died for our sins, and being baptised, it is more.. now when I tried to explain it to her, she says that sounds like works and you cant get salvation by works.. I said no.. no, its not works, but I can't explain it since I am way to knew to Orthodoxy. If any one knows what I am talking about please help me.

On praying to the Saints and Mary... I have not have had much of a problem with this, but how to you explain it to others? My daughter says that no one else can here you but Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit. Is there Scripture that says differently?

What about angels? She believes in them because they are spoken about in the bible, but she doesn't believe that we may have a guardian angel, and they would never now a days have anything to do with us.. that it was only in biblical times that angels interacted with us.

I am not trying to convert her to my type of Christianity, but I am tried of being wrong in everything from my children. It is easier to be pagan with them than it is to be Christian.. I am very wrong with my views... at least when I was just a pagan all they said was I wish you would become a Christian and be saved..now I am still not saved because my views are not the same as theirs and they have a wall between the two of them about each others Christianity. Talk about dysfunctional.. I would even go into what my son says to me! Anyhow I wish to thank you all who are willing to help me out here.

Blessings in Jesus
Ranae

 

[buzuxi02]

I agree that baptism and having Christ as your saviour is the way to salvation. But that salvation is like running a marathon. You recieve the price when you finish the race (1 Cor 9.24-27, Heb 12.1). It is a process with bumps and roadblocks along the way.

On the intercession of the saints, protestants will have difficulty accepting this if they do not believe in the communion of the saints. There is one Body of Christ, both in heaven and on earth it is one. Rev 5.8 speaks of the intercessions where the heavenly elders and the angelic beings offer incense on behalf of the prayers of the earthly saints(see also Rev 8.3) God allows it because he is pleased by it, Rev 8.3 says the angel 'was given' a great quantity of incense to offer it before the altar which are the prayers of the saints. God grants this ability to his saints in heaven.

Not sure why she doesnt believe in guardian angels since there spoken of openly in scripture. In the book of Acts 12.12 when everyone in Mary's house thought Peter was executed, we read:

"So, when he had considered this, he came to the house of Mary, the mother of John whose surname was Mark, where many were gathered together praying. And as Peter knocked at the door of the gate, a girl named Rhoda came to answer. When she recognized Peter’s voice, because of her gladness she did not open the gate, but ran in and announced that Peter stood before the gate. But they said to her, “You are beside yourself!” Yet she kept insisting that it was so. So they said, “It is his angel.”
Now Peter continued knocking; and when they opened the door and saw him, they were astonished.

And again in Matt 18.10: “Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven."

Jewish folklore has a belief that the archangel Michael is also the guardian angel for all jewish children and this is veiled in Daniel 12.1 (kjv): And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince who standeth for the children of thy people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

 

[ProScribe]

My personal view of salvation is centered and a focus on the Cross. His blood being shed became a Propitiation or atonement for our sins. What leads man to salvation is his knowledge of that specific aspect of the Christian faith. In Orthodoxy I see Christ as the victor and conqueror of natural death, I am promised eternal life according to the gospel.

The Bible (or liturgical text) should be read within holy tradition of the Church.

 

[orthodoxyistruth]

Both above replies are excellant. I must stress that like the above poster mentioned. In Orthodoxy we are lucky to have the early church fathers and disciples to be the founders of our church. As such we follow the scriptures AND apostolic traditions. That is we follow the customs and behaviours of those enlightened (the apostles) who were closest to God and Jesus.

The new age christians seem to have forgotten that these are the same people who wrote scriptures and that they follow and made the bible. Yet they (new age xtians) refuse to take on board the traditions and the ways the early christain fathers lived, which should be followed.

 

[Ignatius21]

I'm still trying to figure out angels, saints, etc. But to your question about salvation and the whole business of "works," one enlightening moment I've had rather recently is that from a Protestant perspective (reacting, still, against Rome) works are tended to be viewed in two ways.

1. They are things we do to try to earn favor with God, as though salvation were somehow contingent upon doing enough good things to earn our way into eternal life.

2. They are things we do to "prove our faith is real," although prove to whom, is never said, since God already knows if your faith is real (and if you're Calvinist, God is the one who put faith into your heart anyway). These works somehow make us more like Christ, and are part of our sanctification, but have no real outworking in the life to come, because our salvation (in that sense) is already a done deal. Some Protestants try to solve the problem by thinking that those who do more good works get better "rewards" in heaven, but all who are "saved" still "get there." But how can anyone have a better reward than to be in the presence of God?

Orthodoxy, if I'm understanding it correctly, doesn't fall into either of these extremes. Good works don't earn salvation, as though they are things we must to now, so as to be rewarded with salvation later. Nor do they just "prove" our faith is real. The works, themselves, are salvation, because salvation isn't just moving from the "condemned" category to the "forgiven" category. Salvation is a process of becoming truly united to God in Christ. As we do works of obedience, arising from faith, it is Christ working in and through us, and in this we are becoming more truly united to Christ. If union with Christ is salvation, and good works are union with Christ, then in some sense good works are salvation. Nothing is earned. No rewards are racked up for the hereafter.

Orthodoxy also seems to have finally answered a nagging question I always had, which was, how can anyone have a better "reward" than being in the presence of God? The idea is that we all will be in God's presence...death is destroyed, hell is conquered, so where else can we go but into God's presence? But those who are more united to God in Christ, through good works and through prayer and through sacraments (not because of, as though we earned something) will experience God's presence as joy and bliss. The less we are united to Christ (i.e. the more we desire our own passions and not the pure light of God), the more we will experience that pure light of God as something other than joy...as grief, or sorrow, or pain, who knows...pick your metaphor.

The idea is that, if what you truly desire in eternity are your passions, but all you have is the light of God, you will hate that light and be miserable. But if what you truly desire in eternity is that light, then it will be pure bliss.

Someone has used the analogy of the eye. A diseased eye is hurt by the light and perceives it as agony. A healthy eye receives the light and, by it, sees beauty. The difference is in the eye, not the light.

Does any of that make sense?

Not easy to put into words. And I may very well be butchering it!

Anyway, to conclude, I started with the view that Orthodoxy must believe in salvation by self-effort, earnign your place with God by your works...it must, because it isn't Protestant! I now realize that there is no place in Orthodoxy for earning anything with God. We are humble and undeserving servants who receive salvation from God as a gift. It really isn't as complicated as everyone wants it to be.

 

[ArmyMatt]

well, St Paul says that we must work out our salvation with fear and great trembling. so faith and works go hand in hand. I would ask where in Scripture are faith and works divorced from one another. we are saved by grace, through faith, for good works.

On praying to the Saints and Mary... I have not have had much of a problem with this, but how to you explain it to others? My daughter says that no one else can here you but Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit. Is there Scripture that says differently?

well, the saints are aware of what goes on earth because we see that in the Transfiguration of Christ. Moses, who is dead, talks to Christ about His Passion. the rich man cries out to Abraham, and Abraham not only hears and answers his petition (if a damned sinner can pray and get an answer, why cannot we?), but Abraham is aware of Moses and the prophets that happened centuries after his death. since it is the Christmas season, you could also throw in that Rachel laments for the Holy Innocents that were massacred by Herod, which again happened centuries after her death. I would also add the Book of Revelation, the saints are praying for what is going on earth. and lastly, at the wedding at Cana, Christ is there and the servants go to Mary first, not to Jesus.

it seems that the problem stems from the confusion between the Mediator between God and man, which is Christ, and intercessors, which is a calling for all of us.

What about angels? She believes in them because they are spoken about in the bible, but she doesn't believe that we may have a guardian angel, and they would never now a days have anything to do with us.. that it was only in biblical times that angels interacted with us.

well, in Acts, they confuse St Peter with his angel. not just some angel, but his own. as far as them only being around in Biblical times, this is silly because there is no Scripture that says that will happen, and angels are all over the place in the Book of Revelation, which has not happened yet.

 

[Ignatius21]

well, the saints are aware of what goes on earth because we see that in the Transfiguration of Christ. Moses, who is dead, talks to Christ about His Passion. the rich man cries out to Abraham, and Abraham not only hears and answers his petition (if a damned sinner can pray and get an answer, why cannot we?), but Abraham is aware of Moses and the prophets that happened centuries after his death. since it is the Christmas season, you could also throw in that Rachel laments for the Holy Innocents that were massacred by Herod, which again happened centuries after her death. I would also add the Book of Revelation, the saints are praying for what is going on earth. and lastly, at the wedding at Cana, Christ is there and the servants go to Mary first, not to Jesus.

it seems that the problem stems from the confusion between the Mediator between God and man, which is Christ, and intercessors, which is a calling for all of us.

You raise some interesting examples here with Abraham being aware of things that had happened (law and prophets) since his own earthly departure. I hadn't considered it before.

After banging my head against this issue as a Protestant, I discovered that the fundamental difference really isn't (among informed Protestants anyway) really a confusion over mediator vs. intercessor, but a disagreement on whether the departed saints can hear our pleas and then present their own prayers to God. It comes down to "can the dead hear us?"

My thinking on this changed somewhat when I read through some of the deuterocanonicals, specifically Tobit/Tobias, where the archangle Raphael identifies himself as one who "brings rememberence of your prayers before God." Whoah. Leveraging the NT idea of Incarnation, where humanity is redeemed and is now greater in glory than the angels...well, if the angels and archangels did this for us, wouldn't those joined to Christ do it even more? It seems reasonable.

These books are, of course, inadmissible as evidence for Protestants. In fact they'd claim that the book should be rejected because it claims that angels intercede for us, which we all know is "un-Biblical." Even if these books aren't considered canonical in the same sense as others, they were widely accepted and just part of the thinking among Jews at the time just before Christ's coming, meaning they would seem to be at least a part of the context in which the NT message itself (before its writing, even) would have been received and interpreted within the community of Christians...the majority of whom were, at the very beginning, Hellenistic Jews.

I no longer have an objection to the Orthodox understanding of saints interceding for us. HOWEVER...

Many of the hymns, prayers, etc. to saints in the Orthodox liturgy seem to go far beyond simply asking a saint to pray for us, but rather ask the saints to bring us knowledge, enlightenment, protection, or even salvation. That all still makes me a little queasy.

 

[Orthosdoxa]

Many of the hymns, prayers, etc. to saints in the Orthodox liturgy seem to go far beyond simply asking a saint to pray for us, but rather ask the saints to bring us knowledge, enlightenment, protection, or even salvation. That all still makes me a little queasy.

I've been Orthodox for almost 8 years and there are still very flowery hymns and prayers that sound a little odd to me. However, even when a song or prayer is asking for help from a saint, it's just implicitly understood that this help comes from God, not that this saint is a demi-god. It is through the Holy Spirit that a blessed saint has the power of God working through them.

My husband contracted a grave illness this fall and was not expected to live. I began to pray especially hard to the Theotokos for help - not because she is some kind of demi-god, but because she has motherly boldness in asking for help from her Son! Of course I prayed directly to her Son as well - but why not enlist all the help I can, from those so much more righteous than I! When I cried out for her help and protection, I suppose my wording might have had my Baptist MIL in fits (had she heard it), but *I* knew what I meant - ultimately my help comes from God alone, but we are not alone in this journey.

To be super clear: regardless of wording, we know the saints can do NOTHING apart from the power of God. WE know what we mean, in those songs and prayers.

PS - My hubby did live. He is home now, weaker and thinner, but recovering well and I'm hoping to have the big goofball around for another 50 years or so.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Many of the hymns, prayers, etc. to saints in the Orthodox liturgy seem to go far beyond simply asking a saint to pray for us, but rather ask the saints to bring us knowledge, enlightenment, protection, or even salvation. That all still makes me a little queasy.

sure, and that makes sense coming from a Protestant background. but I heard a priest once say that since they are alive in Christ, then asking them for knowledge, enlightenment, etc is no different than asking a priest/bishop/pastor/buddy/whatever. all of it comes either from God or points us to God for His glory, no matter how the saint would respond.

I think it also has to do with English being a crappy language to translate, once you figure out what we mean when we pray to the saints, it becomes less queasifying (is that a word?).

 

[Ranae of Cedar]

Oh thank you all for your responses! You've explained salvation and prayers to the Saints and Mary in such a way that I can understand them, and I am able to give her places in the bible to read and figure out for herself. This for me is wonderful!

 

[Protoevangel]

I think it also has to do with English being a crappy language to translate, once you figure out what we mean when we pray to the saints, it becomes less queasifying (is that a word?).

It is now!

 

[musicluvr83]

I think it also has to do with English being a crappy language to translate, once you figure out what we mean when we pray to the saints, it becomes less queasifying (is that a word?).

haha, awesome! As Protoevangel said, "It is now! " I'm quite sure you'll be hearing me use it in the future.

 

[Dalibor]

I'm still trying to figure out angels, saints, etc. But to your question about salvation and the whole business of "works," one enlightening moment I've had rather recently is that from a Protestant perspective (reacting, still, against Rome) works are tended to be viewed in two ways.

1. They are things we do to try to earn favor with God, as though salvation were somehow contingent upon doing enough good things to earn our way into eternal life.

2. They are things we do to "prove our faith is real," although prove to whom, is never said, since God already knows if your faith is real (and if you're Calvinist, God is the one who put faith into your heart anyway). These works somehow make us more like Christ, and are part of our sanctification, but have no real outworking in the life to come, because our salvation (in that sense) is already a done deal. Some Protestants try to solve the problem by thinking that those who do more good works get better "rewards" in heaven, but all who are "saved" still "get there." But how can anyone have a better reward than to be in the presence of God?

Orthodoxy, if I'm understanding it correctly, doesn't fall into either of these extremes. Good works don't earn salvation, as though they are things we must to now, so as to be rewarded with salvation later. Nor do they just "prove" our faith is real. The works, themselves, are salvation, because salvation isn't just moving from the "condemned" category to the "forgiven" category. Salvation is a process of becoming truly united to God in Christ. As we do works of obedience, arising from faith, it is Christ working in and through us, and in this we are becoming more truly united to Christ. If union with Christ is salvation, and good works are union with Christ, then in some sense good works are salvation. Nothing is earned. No rewards are racked up for the hereafter.

Orthodoxy also seems to have finally answered a nagging question I always had, which was, how can anyone have a better "reward" than being in the presence of God? The idea is that we all will be in God's presence...death is destroyed, hell is conquered, so where else can we go but into God's presence? But those who are more united to God in Christ, through good works and through prayer and through sacraments (not because of, as though we earned something) will experience God's presence as joy and bliss. The less we are united to Christ (i.e. the more we desire our own passions and not the pure light of God), the more we will experience that pure light of God as something other than joy...as grief, or sorrow, or pain, who knows...pick your metaphor.

The idea is that, if what you truly desire in eternity are your passions, but all you have is the light of God, you will hate that light and be miserable. But if what you truly desire in eternity is that light, then it will be pure bliss.

Someone has used the analogy of the eye. A diseased eye is hurt by the light and perceives it as agony. A healthy eye receives the light and, by it, sees beauty. The difference is in the eye, not the light.

Does any of that make sense?

Not easy to put into words. And I may very well be butchering it!

Anyway, to conclude, I started with the view that Orthodoxy must believe in salvation by self-effort, earnign your place with God by your works...it must, because it isn't Protestant! I now realize that there is no place in Orthodoxy for earning anything with God. We are humble and undeserving servants who receive salvation from God as a gift. It really isn't as complicated as everyone wants it to be.

I think you are confused. As ArmyMatt said we are saved by grace. But to obtain grace we need good works in the name of Jesus Christ. The more good works you do the more grace you get. Story from the gospel about five foolish virgins who lacked oil is that they were lacking grace which is good deeds. It is important to underline here that only good works for the sake of Jesus Christ will reap rewards.
As for rewards themselves, when Jesus said for those who leave everything behind for His sake they will receive hundred times more. He meant more the just being in God's presence for reward. We don't know what those rewards are ("No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"). But surely we can't expect that everyone will get same reward.

 

[ArmyMatt]

haha, awesome! As Protoevangel said, "It is now!

" I'm quite sure you'll be hearing me use it in the future.

fan-flingin-flangin-tastic

 

[musicluvr83]

fan-flingin-flangin-tastic