Questions on Marriage

[DD2008]

You dirty dawg you.

 

[Lady Bug]

now I'm really wondering whether my mom's marriage was in mortal sin or not but I may never know

sorry - hate to bring family stories into this lol

 

[Michie]

I really think these things we should leave to the mercy of God ladybug.

People are too quick to judge in these situations it seems to me.

I just don't feel comfortable with it.

 

[Lady Bug]

I really think these things we should leave to the mercy of God ladybug.

People are too quick to judge in these situations it seems to me.

I just don't feel comfortable with it.

I don't feel comfortable either - I guess it's more about being worried that something wasn't sacramental - as opposed to making presumptions, but I know what you mean.

 

[Gwendolyn]

Your mom had to fully know that what she was doing was wrong, and still do it anyway, in order for it to be a mortal sin.

You don't have to sin mortally to be excommunicated - you guys keep saying that maybe people who leave the Church aren't sinning mortally. Maybe they aren't. But if they're participating in another church other than the Catholic one, having left the Catholic faith for it, they are still unable to receive the Sacraments until they confess.

Geez, that's all I'm saying. That is what excommunication is - not being able to receive the Sacraments because of some decision you made, whether a full-blown mortal sin, or lacking a bit in full knowledge/intent. If a person decides they aren't sure that premarital sex is wrong and sees no harm in it, and has premarital sex, they need to confess before receiving the Eucharist again regardless if they would like to participate in the Sacraments again.

 

[Lady Bug]

Your mom had to fully know that what she was doing was wrong, and still do it anyway, in order for it to be a mortal sin.

Yeah, full knowledge is the key. I guess I may never know because she's not lucid enough to tell me. When I was young, she told me once that the Church refused to marry her and dad I was too young to care to know why. I'll never know if the Church told her why they wouldn't perform the ceremony but since that happened, they married in a non-Catholic Church I doubt that she got a dispensation if the Catholic Church declined to perform the ceremony...I don't want to make "assumptions," I'm just thinking "out loud."

what does the Catholic Church say about children from a non-sacramental marriage? I hear that they do NOT render such children illegitimate though, which is a good thing. It just feels weird, that's all.

 

[Michie]

Your mom had to fully know that what she was doing was wrong, and still do it anyway, in order for it to be a mortal sin.

You don't have to sin mortally to be excommunicated - you guys keep saying that maybe people who leave the Church aren't sinning mortally. Maybe they aren't. But if they're participating in another church other than the Catholic one, having left the Catholic faith for it, they are still unable to receive the Sacraments until they confess.

Geez, that's all I'm saying. That is what excommunication is - not being able to receive the Sacraments because of some decision you made, whether a full-blown mortal sin, or lacking a bit in full knowledge/intent. If a person decides they aren't sure that premarital sex is wrong and sees no harm in it, and has premarital sex, they need to confess before receiving the Eucharist again regardless if they would like to participate in the Sacraments again.

I agree completely with that.

 

[Michie]

Yeah, full knowledge is the key. I guess I may never know because she's not lucid enough to tell me. When I was young, she told me once that the Church refused to marry her and dad I was too young to care to know why. I'll never know if the Church told her why they wouldn't perform the ceremony but since that happened, they married in a non-Catholic Church I doubt that she got a dispensation if the Catholic Church declined to perform the ceremony...I don't want to make "assumptions," I'm just thinking "out loud."

what does the Catholic Church say about children from a non-sacramental marriage? I hear that they do NOT render such children illegitimate though, which is a good thing. It just feels weird, that's all.

The only reason I can think of the Church not marrying your parents is that there was not agreement to raise the children Catholic?

I'm just guessing.

As far as I know the Church has no stance children whose parents were married outside the Church.

 

[YourBrotherInChrist]

If two lapsed Catholics (they were baptized as Catholics, but have since become "Agnostic.") are "married," by a secular Judge and outside of the Catholic Church. Are they just living in mortal sin or are they excommunicated as well?

No, they are not excommunicated now, nor were they excommunicated under the 1917 Code of Canon Law. Canon 2319 of the 1917 Code only applied if they were "married" by a Protestant minister, not a justice of the peace.

 

[Gwendolyn]

what does the Catholic Church say about children from a non-sacramental marriage? I hear that they do NOT render such children illegitimate though, which is a good thing. It just feels weird, that's all.

Just because a marriage is not considered sacramental in the eyes of the Church, that does not mean that the marriage does not exist. Marriages can definitely be valid, but not sacramental. "Natural" is the term often applied. The children are NOT illegitimate. A lot of people get up in arms about that, especially with annulments. "Illegitimate" is a legal term - "Legit" being from "lex, legis" meaning "law". If children are products of marriages, they are always, always legitimate.

Don't worry about your mother. What is past is past. Everything will be fine.

 

[Lady Bug]

Just because a marriage is not considered sacramental in the eyes of the Church, that does not mean that the marriage does not exist. Marriages can definitely be valid, but not sacramental. "Natural" is the term often applied. The children are NOT illegitimate. A lot of people get up in arms about that, especially with annulments. "Illegitimate" is a legal term - "Legit" being from "lex, legis" meaning "law". If children are products of marriages, they are always, always legitimate.

Don't worry about your mother. What is past is past. Everything will be fine.

Ok I will try not to worry about my mom. lol.

I had seriously thought that valid and sacramental were sort of interchangeable and I didn't know that there was a difference.

 

[benedictaoo]

If two lapsed Catholics (they were baptized as Catholics, but have since become "Agnostic.") are "married," by a secular Judge and outside of the Catholic Church. Are they just living in mortal sin or are they excommunicated as well?

Yeah, they are... only secular law recognizes their marriage.

 

[benedictaoo]

No, they are not excommunicated now, nor were they excommunicated under the 1917 Code of Canon Law. Canon 2319 of the 1917 Code only applied if they were "married" by a Protestant minister, not a justice of the peace.

Absolutely false. Sorry.

me and my husband was married by a judged and we were two non practicing Catholics at the time and we indeed did not have a valid marriage what so ever, and we indeed did have to get married in the Church...

 

[benedictaoo]

blah, I am confused to
"legal marriage" what does that mean? why do they have to get the marriage recognized by the Church?

What the deacon told me when I was going through it, was you are not getting your marriage recognized or blessed, you are getting married for the first time.

JP marriages are mere civil unions and nothing more. they are not Christians marriages. One is not married in God's eyes.

 

[YourBrotherInChrist]

Absolutely false. Sorry.

me and my husband was married by a judged and we were two non practicing Catholics at the time and we indeed did not have a valid marriage what so ever, and we indeed did have to get married in the Church...

You seem to be confusing "excommunication" (canon 1331 of the 1983 Code) with "being excluded from communion" (canons 915 and 916 of the 1983 Code).

You did not have a valid marriage, and you were excluded from communion, but you were not excommunicated.

The same principle holds for other sins. A person who robs a bank and kills 12 people has committed a grave sin, and if fully culpable, a mortal sin, and so cannot partake of communion. This person needs to go to confession to be forgiven. However, a person who desecrates the Holy Eucharist has committed a grave sin, and if fully culpable, a mortal sin, which results in excommunication under canon 1367. This person needs to have their excommunication lifted by the Vatican before they can receive forgiveness via the sacrament of confession.

 

[benedictaoo]

You are being overly detailed and it's not necessary.

Excommunication and being excluded from comunion is the same thing... no it's not a formal excommunication but so what? It's still ex communication ie you can't commune.

 

[Cjwinnit]

What the deacon told me when I was going through it, was you are not getting your marriage recognized or blessed, you are getting married for the first time.

JP marriages are mere civil unions and nothing more. they are not Christians marriages. One is not married in God's eyes.

A few points to note:

• There is no service of marriage recorded, or even mentioned, in the Bible.
• Even after Christianity moved into the Gentile world, there was no special Christian marriage service.
• Until well into the Middle Ages, there was no expectation that a Christian marriage should take place in a church. The first full description of a Christian marriage liturgy is found in the ninth century.

 

[YourBrotherInChrist]

From Excommunication and the Catholic Church, by Edward Peters, J.D., J.C.D.:

14. I had heard that Catholics who divorce and then remarry outside the Church are excommunicated. Is this true?

In the United States, this was true for nearly a hundred years, but it is not true today. In 1884, the Third Plenary Council of Baltimore received permission from the Holy See to impose an "automatic" excommunication on American Catholics who divorced and, without petitioning for and receiving a declaration of nullity (commonly called an annulment), remarried in a civil or other non-Catholic ceremony. This special penal law, applicable only in America, remained in effect until 1977 when the American bishops asked for and received Rome's permission to drop the penalty of excommunication in these cases. Since then, American Catholics who divorce and remarry outside the Church are not excommunicated (though, in most cases, the Church does not recognize the validity of those weddings).

Moreover, by operation of what later became canon 1313 of the 1983 Code, those who were already excommunicated at the time saw their penalty lifted, even though they lacked the change of heart that normally must precede the lifting of a censure such as excommunication.

It is important to understand that lifting the penalty of excommunication did not mean that the Church suddenly recognized these marriages as being valid, or that marrying outside the Church was no longer seen as gravely wrong and spiritually harmful. Persons who are divorced and remarried outside the Church even today are generally prohibited (under c. 915) from receiving the Eucharist until they rectify their situation in accord with canon law. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith reiterated this point as recently as 1994 in its Letter on the Reception of the Eucharist by Divorced and Remarried Catholics.

By the way, the phrase "outside the Church" does not mean "outside of a church building,", but rather marrying in disregard of the Church's authority to regulate the marriages of her members. Some people are confused on this point.

 

[YourBrotherInChrist]

You are being overly detailed and it's not necessary.

I didn't write the Code of Canon Law - the Pope did. I'm just trying to explain how it works.

Excommunication and being excluded from comunion is the same thing... no it's not a formal excommunication but so what? It's still ex communication ie you can't commune.

Excommunications can be formal, or they can be automatic. Either way, they prohibit the person from receiving any of the sacraments, not just the Holy Eucharist. That is why the excommunication must be lifted before the person can receive the sacrament of confession.