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Questions on Calvinism and Apostasy

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Monergism

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Hello, everyone. I'm a five-point Calvinist, and I have a question. Now, I believe in Perseverance of the Saints, which stated below from Center for Reformed Theology and Apologetics (CRTA):

"Perseverance of the Saints is a doctrine which states that the saints (those whom God has saved) will remain in God's hand until they are glorified and brought to abide with him in heaven. Romans 8:28-39 makes it clear that when a person truly has been regenerated by God, he will remain in God's stead. The work of sanctification which God has brought about in his elect will continue until it reaches its fulfillment in eternal life (Phil. 1:6). Christ assures the elect that he will not lose them and that they will be glorified at the "last day" (John 6:39). The Calvinist stands upon the Word of God and trusts in Christ's promise that he will perfectly fulfill the will of the Father in saving all the elect."
http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/index.html

Now, for apostasy:
1. If a Christian falls away from Christ, was he truly a Christian?
2. If "Yes," then this is against what Calvinists teach.
3. If "No," then was he deceived?
4. Can a reprobate have a "feel" of being a Christian, but really is not?

As this is questions for Calvinists, I only expect answers and arguments from Calvinists.:thumbsup:
 
J

jonas3

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Well, I'm not a "Calvinist", but here's my answer. (Note that I do believe in the doctrines of grace.)

Monergism said:
1. If a Christian falls away from Christ, was he truly a Christian?

A Christian (i.e. a regenerate person) CANNOT fall away from Christ.

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." - Jn 6:39

If a person has been SEALED with the Holy Spirit (2Cor 1:22, Eph 1:13-14, Eph 4:30), that seal is permanent.

"37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” – Ro 8:37-39.

Therefore, my answer to your question is an absolute NO. The person that you speak of was not truly a Christian, but an unregenerate unbeliever throughout the entire time that he professed "faith" in his "christ". This person was most certainly deceived, but their temporary false profession of "Christianity" did not make them anymore or less deceived. They were ignorant of the gospel the entire time.

Monergism said:
4. Can a reprobate have a "feel" of being a Christian, but really is not?

Absolutely, an unregenerate person can be very religious. I posted this brief comment in another post, but here it is again.

An unregenerate person can read the Bible, an unregenerate person can "know the way of righteousness" (2Pet 2:21), an unregenerate person can say "Jesus is Lord", an unregenerate person can believe the doctrines of grace, an unregenerate person can draw nigh unto Christ with his mouth (Mt 15:8), an unregenerate person can strive to keep God's commandments, an unregenerate person can know the Lord's will, but in the end he remains just that: unregenerate, and he shall be appointed his portion with the UNBELIEVERS (Lk 12:46).

-jonas
 
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frumanchu

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Monergism said:
1. If a Christian falls away from Christ, was he truly a Christian?

No. Apostasy is defined as leaving the faith one professes. One who professes faith in Christ and then renounces that profession is by definition an apostate. It does not, however, mean that they ever truly possessed saving faith.

2. If "Yes," then this is against what Calvinists teach.

Apostasy is real. People can and do profess faith in Christ only to later fall away for myriad reasons. In doing so they show their faith to be less than authentic saving faith.

3. If "No," then was he deceived?

Either deceived by others or deceived by themselves. There are all sorts of possibilities.

4. Can a reprobate have a "feel" of being a Christian, but really is not?

Of course! People vainly deceive themselves all the time, and it often boils down to a sense of self-righteousness.
 
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Erinwilcox

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Monergism said:
Now, for apostasy:

1. If a Christian falls away from Christ, was he truly a Christian?

2. If "Yes," then this is against what Calvinists teach.

3. If "No," then was he deceived?

4. Can a reprobate have a "feel" of being a Christian, but really is not?



As this is questions for Calvinists, I only expect answers and arguments from Calvinists.



Alright, you see my tulip badge. Can I answer now?



1. The answer would depend on the following points:

a. does he fall away forever

b. does he fall away only for a time and then repent at a later date

If the answer is a, then my response would be no, he was never truly a Christian. If the answer is b, then yes he was truly a Christian. Remember, Perseverant of the Saints-those who are truly in Christ will persevere. If he truly was a Christian, then he will repent of his backsliding and return to FULL fellowship with Christ.



2. I think that I answered this in the latter part of answer 1 when talking about choice b. It all depends on the person. If b was the case, then it does NOT go against Calvinism.



3. If the answer is no, then yes-he was deceived. Let me pose a question. How many people pray the sinner's prayer, walk away and live their lives like ever before, and never think about their "conversion" again except to think of it like an insurance policy to show God when they die. I have known so many people who have prayed the prayer and then gone back to their drinking, their drugs, their pre-marital sex, etc. only to swear for the rest of their lives that they are saved because they prayed the prayer. They don't even bother to ever go to church! YOU WILL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUIT!!!



4. Can a reprobate have a "feel" of being a Christian, but really is not? Yeah, if he is reprobate! But really, I think that I answered that in question three. Many people who respond emotionally to an alter call feel that they are saved for the rest of their lives, but they were never truly converted. Notice that I did not say ALL. But people get a false assurance because they prayed some prayer. If there is no change in their lives, if they did not repent and TURN from there evil ways, if they did not really consecrate their lives to Christ, then are they Saved? I would think not.



Was that Calvinistic enough for you? I was glad to see that you requested only Calvinists to respond. . .I'll have to use that one sometime!
 
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GLJCA

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Now, for apostasy:
1. If a Christian falls away from Christ, was he truly a Christian?
2. If "Yes," then this is against what Calvinists teach.
3. If "No," then was he deceived?
4. Can a reprobate have a "feel" of being a Christian, but really is not?

As this is questions for Calvinists, I only expect answers and arguments from Calvinists.:thumbsup:

1. Isn't the definition of Christian "a follower of Christ"? Are you defining the word Christian as "one ordained to eternal life"? It was in Antioch that the followers of Christ first started being called Christian. Does that mean that, because they were called Christians, every person in the church of Antioch was ordained to eternal life? If someone in the Church of Antioch fell away does that mean that they never followed Christ. In the same way Judas was called a disciple of Christ. Do we say that since he fell away he was never a disciple?

Are you asking if someone who is ordained to eternal life falls away then is he still ordained to eternal life? If so, I will say that if someone who is ordained to eternal life does fall he will be disciplined and brought back to the Covenant, because if God ordained that he have eternal life then noone or nothing can snatch him out of God's hand.

I will also say that on an individual basis that since we don't know who is ordained to eternal life then we have no way of answering whether that person was ever in or out.

Our terminology has to be consistent with the Word of God or we as Calvinist will definitely be misunderstood.

4. In answer to your last question. I would tend to say yes. In Matt 7:21-23 there were some that I believe were outside of the covenant of God that felt that if they did the works of a believer then God would accept them into heaven, to their demise. Also 2Peter 1:10 tells us to make our calling and election sure for in doing these things we will never fall. This tells me that someone can be deceived into thinking that he is all right spiritually when, in reality they are not, or else why would we need to make sure of our calling?

GLJCA
 
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hlaltimus

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The historic position of the doctrine of perseverence of the saints has always been, NO, a true Christian cannot irreversibly fall away and be damned, but people such as the persecuted Puritans were awfully careful about who they called a "Christian". Those old fellows, who acted as though they didn't know the meaning of the word "unthorough", would have pointedly used the term "justified" in place of our more universally used word "saved" when asserting the permanence of the saint's posititon. As justification is a specific term and saved is a general term, this protected the Puritan's position, as to the perseverence of the saints, in a biblical fashion thus: He would state that a Justified believer cannot utterly apostasize, and in so doing would limited down any example of a so called "Christian" of being lost, which example could now not be found since "...those whom He justified, He glorified." But if a guy like Thomas Brooks was so smart, then why is there yet such abundant evidence everywhere of people who had every appearance of being "saved" Christians yet totally apostasize from the faith? The old Puritan is safe here too because he used the word "justified" while the general word "saved" can refer to a temporal or physical salvation allowed for in the bible. Every unbeliever on Earth right now is being saved, temporally speaking, from the eternal punishment that he merits and that temporal salvation will end some day given he does not repent and believe.
Answer #3 would be correct...He who appeared to be a true "Christian" and yet finally fell away was deceived about his so called salvation. He should have read the Puritans on the doctrine of sanctification!
 
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Rolf Ernst

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jonas3 said:
Well, I'm not a "Calvinist", but here's my answer. (Note that I do believe in the doctrines of grace.)



A Christian (i.e. a regenerate person) CANNOT fall away from Christ.

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." - Jn 6:39

If a person has been SEALED with the Holy Spirit (2Cor 1:22, Eph 1:13-14, Eph 4:30), that seal is permanent.

"37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” – Ro 8:37-39.

Therefore, my answer to your question is an absolute NO. The person that you speak of was not truly a Christian, but an unregenerate unbeliever throughout the entire time that he professed "faith" in his "christ". This person was most certainly deceived, but their temporary false profession of "Christianity" did not make them anymore or less deceived. They were ignorant of the gospel the entire time.



Absolutely, an unregenerate person can be very religious. I posted this brief comment in another post, but here it is again.

An unregenerate person can read the Bible, an unregenerate person can "know the way of righteousness" (2Pet 2:21), an unregenerate person can say "Jesus is Lord", an unregenerate person can believe the doctrines of grace, an unregenerate person can draw nigh unto Christ with his mouth (Mt 15:8), an unregenerate person can strive to keep God's commandments, an unregenerate person can know the Lord's will, but in the end he remains just that: unregenerate, and he shall be appointed his portion with the UNBELIEVERS (Lk 12:46).

-jonas
I wonder why Jonas3 can't find a forum called "Ask An Arminian"? Maybe because not many would care to ask an Arminian, hmm?
 
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jonas3

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Rolf Ernst said:
I wonder why Jonas3 can't find a forum called "Ask An Arminian"? Maybe because not many would care to ask an Arminian, hmm?

Hello Rolf Ernst, let's see who the Arminian is. I believe that there is not ONE Arminian who is presently saved (i.e. regenerate). NOT ONE. Why? Because I believe the gospel, which is God's promise to save His people (Mat 1:21) conditioned on the atoning blood (Heb 9:12-14) and imputed righteousness of Christ alone (Ro 4:6-8).

Arminians believe that Jesus died for everyone without exception (i.e. universal atonement) and thus do not believe the gospel, because they do not believe that it is the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation, but that it is the conditional work of the sinner to have "faith" in order to make Christ’s sacrifice effective towards him, which is blasphemy. They believe that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception including those who end up in hell. However, if Christ died for those who end up in hell, then what did the blood of Jesus Christ actually accomplish for that person in hell? It accomplished nothing, and what was the reason that Christ’s blood was not effective for that person in hell? An Arminian would say that it is because that person did not have “faith”, or because that person rejected Christ. Therefore, under their view, we see that it is NOT the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation, but rather the conditional WORK of the sinner to have “faith” in this “christ" who died for everyone without exception. They do NOT believe that they are saved by grace, because they boast in their own works (i.e. their faith). If a person can rightly say that he is saved because he had faith over another person, then he has conditioned his salvation on himself, and not on the finished work of Christ, and he has made grace no more grace (Ro 11:6).

Additionally, those who speak peace to Arminians by calling them brothers and sisters in Christ show themselves to be unregenerate. Those who do not believe that ALL who believe in universal atonement are presently lost (i.e. unregenerate) do not truly believe that universal atonement is a false gospel, and if one does not truly believe that universal atonement is a false gospel, then they must believe that it is either true, or that the atonement is not apart of the gospel; therefore, this person shows themselves to be unregenerate (i.e. lost). Why? That is because it shows that they do not believe in or understand the true gospel, seeing how they put no difference between a truth and a lie, and no lie is of the truth (1Jn 2:21). They have spoken peace to one who does NOT abide in the doctrine of Christ, and they are a partaker of their evil deeds, as it is written,

"9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." - 2Jn 1:9-11

As a result, Rolf Ernst, do you believe that all who believe in Arminianism are presently unregenerate?

And, do you believe that all who speak peace to Arminians (i.e. by calling them brothers or sisters in Christ) are presently unregenerate?

-jonas
 
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Bob Moore

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Monergism said:
Now, for apostasy:
1. If a Christian falls away from Christ, was he truly a Christian?
2. If "Yes," then this is against what Calvinists teach.
3. If "No," then was he deceived?
4. Can a reprobate have a "feel" of being a Christian, but really is not?

As this is questions for Calvinists, I only expect answers and arguments from Calvinists.:thumbsup:

First question: A genuine Christian (and only God knows who they are) can never completely fall away. But someone who only had the name but not the reality can, and frequently will, withdraw from the church completely. Such a person could never fall away from Christ though because he was never His in the first place.

Regarding deception: Deception comes from several sources. The pride of the man, the work of Satan, the love of the world, etc. I think one of the best tricks Satan has is to tell the truth--but not all of it, and that is what a lot of churches do. But usually Satan doesn't have to do anything because the nature of the fallen man is such that, not understanding grace, he thinks he can do something to make himself acceptable before God. When at length he realizes that he is no better off (and is perhaps worse) than before he falls away and vehemently denies the reality of the cross. We see in Matthew 7 that on that day Jesus is going to drive away "many" who think they are justified, but who are deceived. We constantly find that there are indeed many who prefer to put man made theology in place of the Bible. Not that every teaching is obvious, but none is difficult to grasp. Unless, of course, the fallen nature is still in the way. In which case deception is at hand.

Last question: "Can a reprobate have a "feel" of being a Christian, but really is not?" Certainly. The churches are full of them. "Few there be that find it". Again, see Matthew 7.
 
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Rolf Ernst

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jonas3 said:
Hello Rolf Ernst, let's see who the Arminian is. I believe that there is not ONE Arminian who is presently saved (i.e. regenerate). NOT ONE. Why? Because I believe the gospel, which is God's promise to save His people (Mat 1:21) conditioned on the atoning blood (Heb 9:12-14) and imputed righteousness of Christ alone (Ro 4:6-8).

Arminians believe that Jesus died for everyone without exception (i.e. universal atonement) and thus do not believe the gospel, because they do not believe that it is the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation, but that it is the conditional work of the sinner to have "faith" in order to make Christ’s sacrifice effective towards him, which is blasphemy. They believe that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception including those who end up in hell. However, if Christ died for those who end up in hell, then what did the blood of Jesus Christ actually accomplish for that person in hell? It accomplished nothing, and what was the reason that Christ’s blood was not effective for that person in hell? An Arminian would say that it is because that person did not have “faith”, or because that person rejected Christ. Therefore, under their view, we see that it is NOT the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation, but rather the conditional WORK of the sinner to have “faith” in this “christ" who died for everyone without exception. They do NOT believe that they are saved by grace, because they boast in their own works (i.e. their faith). If a person can rightly say that he is saved because he had faith over another person, then he has conditioned his salvation on himself, and not on the finished work of Christ, and he has made grace no more grace (Ro 11:6).

Additionally, those who speak peace to Arminians by calling them brothers and sisters in Christ show themselves to be unregenerate. Those who do not believe that ALL who believe in universal atonement are presently lost (i.e. unregenerate) do not truly believe that universal atonement is a false gospel, and if one does not truly believe that universal atonement is a false gospel, then they must believe that it is either true, or that the atonement is not apart of the gospel; therefore, this person shows themselves to be unregenerate (i.e. lost). Why? That is because it shows that they do not believe in or understand the true gospel, seeing how they put no difference between a truth and a lie, and no lie is of the truth (1Jn 2:21). They have spoken peace to one who does NOT abide in the doctrine of Christ, and they are a partaker of their evil deeds, as it is written,

"9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." - 2Jn 1:9-11

As a result, Rolf Ernst, do you believe that all who believe in Arminianism are presently unregenerate?

And, do you believe that all who speak peace to Arminians (i.e. by calling them brothers or sisters in Christ) are presently unregenerate?

-jonas
We must be careful to distinguish the difference between those who are Arminian because they have not advanced in their study of theology sufficiently and those who are Arminian out of a hardness of heart toward the doctrines of grace. I believe people can be Arminians doctrinally simply because they are not far enough advanced in the faith, but if they are truly regenerate, I believe that they will find the doctrines of grace to be heart warming and gratifying. I myself was doctrinally an Arminian, but there was an ache in my heart to know the truth of God more fully, and that fine spring Sunday afternoon when I devoted myself to a close study of Isa. 53, I felt like I had come home!! That was my experience as a regenerate Arminian. But like you, I don't beleive a real Christian would find the doctrines of grace unpleasant at all.
 
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Bob Moore

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I think the Arminian position of universal attonment arises because they have failed to distinguish between sufficient and efficient. When the Scriptures speak of the "whole world" they are speaking of sufficiency, but what is sufficient for all is efficient only for the elect.
 
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Erinwilcox

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jonas3 said:
Hello Rolf Ernst, let's see who the Arminian is. I believe that there is not ONE Arminian who is presently saved (i.e. regenerate). NOT ONE. Why? Because I believe the gospel, which is God's promise to save His people (Mat 1:21) conditioned on the atoning blood (Heb 9:12-14) and imputed righteousness of Christ alone (Ro 4:6-8).

Arminians believe that Jesus died for everyone without exception (i.e. universal atonement) and thus do not believe the gospel, because they do not believe that it is the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation, but that it is the conditional work of the sinner to have "faith" in order to make Christ’s sacrifice effective towards him, which is blasphemy. They believe that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception including those who end up in hell. However, if Christ died for those who end up in hell, then what did the blood of Jesus Christ actually accomplish for that person in hell? It accomplished nothing, and what was the reason that Christ’s blood was not effective for that person in hell? An Arminian would say that it is because that person did not have “faith”, or because that person rejected Christ. Therefore, under their view, we see that it is NOT the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation, but rather the conditional WORK of the sinner to have “faith” in this “christ" who died for everyone without exception. They do NOT believe that they are saved by grace, because they boast in their own works (i.e. their faith). If a person can rightly say that he is saved because he had faith over another person, then he has conditioned his salvation on himself, and not on the finished work of Christ, and he has made grace no more grace (Ro 11:6).

Additionally, those who speak peace to Arminians by calling them brothers and sisters in Christ show themselves to be unregenerate. Those who do not believe that ALL who believe in universal atonement are presently lost (i.e. unregenerate) do not truly believe that universal atonement is a false gospel, and if one does not truly believe that universal atonement is a false gospel, then they must believe that it is either true, or that the atonement is not apart of the gospel; therefore, this person shows themselves to be unregenerate (i.e. lost). Why? That is because it shows that they do not believe in or understand the true gospel, seeing how they put no difference between a truth and a lie, and no lie is of the truth (1Jn 2:21). They have spoken peace to one who does NOT abide in the doctrine of Christ, and they are a partaker of their evil deeds, as it is written,

"9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." - 2Jn 1:9-11

As a result, Rolf Ernst, do you believe that all who believe in Arminianism are presently unregenerate?

And, do you believe that all who speak peace to Arminians (i.e. by calling them brothers or sisters in Christ) are presently unregenerate?

-jonas

I know that this is an older post, but YIKES!!!! Scary stuff! Now, I would NEVER say that ABSOLUTELY NO ARMINIAN HAS EVER BEEN SAVED, NO ARMINIAN IS PRESENTLY SAVED, OR EVER WILL BE, which is the logical conclusion to jonas' statement. Umm, whew! That's dangerous. I was an Arminian for many years and I was saved. My parents were Arminian for almost twenty years and they were saved during that time. Now, I will admit that not all Arminians are saved, but to say that absolutely none are is. . . wrong, to say the least. To judge a man's salvation? I know, you will know them by their fruits. . .many Arminians have much good fruit and truly love the Lord. Many Arminians are just uninformed, illtaught. I was one of those. I didn't even know what Calvinism was until my parents began studying it. . .
 
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J

jonas3

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Rolf Ernst said:
We must be careful to distinguish the difference between those who are Arminian because they have not advanced in their study of theology sufficiently and those who are Arminian out of a hardness of heart toward the doctrines of grace. I believe people can be Arminians doctrinally simply because they are not far enough advanced in the faith, but if they are truly regenerate, I believe that they will find the doctrines of grace to be heart warming and gratifying. I myself was doctrinally an Arminian, but there was an ache in my heart to know the truth of God more fully, and that fine spring Sunday afternoon when I devoted myself to a close study of Isa. 53, I felt like I had come home!! That was my experience as a regenerate Arminian. But like you, I don't beleive a real Christian would find the doctrines of grace unpleasant at all.

This is absolutely absurd, and how do you actually judge the difference between the Arminian who has not advanced in their studies verses the Arminian who is harden in his heart? By what standard do you judge? Also, would you say the same of Muslims, or Mormons, or Jehovah’s Witnesses? Are there some of them who are not, “advanced in their study of theology sufficiently?” Are there some of them who are not, “far enough advanced in the faith”? Are there, "regenerate Muslims", or "regenerate Mormons", or "regenerate Jehovah's Witnesses"?

Do you believe that all who believe in Muslimism are presently unregenerate? Recall that Muslims do not believe that Jesus is God. Now, if you are consistent you will have to answer this question with a no; however, if you are a hypocrite, then you would have to answer this question with a yes, and if you answer this question with a yes, then why do you not answer the same regarding Arminianism? It is because you do not think it is a false gospel.

Jesus said,

“A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.” – Mat 7:18.

“4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.” – Jn 10:4-5

The Holy Spirit does NOT let an individual remain ignorant of the gospel after regeneration. Immediately upon regeneration an individual is given the knowledge of the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel.

“16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that BELIEVETH; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.” – Ro 1:16-17

Those who are regenerate believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ. They understand how God is just to justify the ungodly based on the work of Jesus Christ alone TOTALLY apart from the sinners efforts (Ro 3:20-28). They KNOW the true and living God of heaven. If someone professes a false gospel, such as “universal atonement”, then they do NOT know the true God of the Bible. They do NOT believe that the only difference between salvation and damnation is the work of Christ on the cross alone, because they believe that the work of Christ was for everyone in the entire world! All of God’s regenerate elect KNOW the true God, and believe the gospel.

“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” – Jn 17:3

“But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.” – Ro 6:17

"Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." – 1Cor 12:3

Think carefully about that last verse.

“3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.” – 2Cor 4:3-6

“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.” – 1Jn 5:20.

-jonas
 
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jonas3

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Erinwilcox said:
I know that this is an older post, but YIKES!!!! Scary stuff! Now, I would NEVER say that ABSOLUTELY NO ARMINIAN HAS EVER BEEN SAVED, NO ARMINIAN IS PRESENTLY SAVED, OR EVER WILL BE, which is the logical conclusion to jonas' statement. Umm, whew! That's dangerous. I was an Arminian for many years and I was saved. My parents were Arminian for almost twenty years and they were saved during that time. Now, I will admit that not all Arminians are saved, but to say that absolutely none are is. . . wrong, to say the least. To judge a man's salvation? I know, you will know them by their fruits. . .many Arminians have much good fruit and truly love the Lord. Many Arminians are just uninformed, illtaught. I was one of those. I didn't even know what Calvinism was until my parents began studying it. . .

Erinwilcox, where did I say that absolutely no Arminian has ever been saved, or that no Arminian ever will be saved? This is a false accusation. I never said this nor do I believe this blasphemy. I was once a lost God-hating Arminian myself.

What I DID say, which you got right 1/3 of the time, was that no Arminian is PRESENTLY saved (i.e. regenerate), which is a big difference. I am not saying that all Arminians are certainly going to hell, because Christian’s do not judge the eternal state of anyone. What I am saying is that NO Arminian is PRESENTLY saved (i.e. regenerate). In fact, NO ONE is PRESENTLY saved (i.e. regenerate) while believing in a false gospel. Look at it this way.

1. All who believe in a false gospel are not saved. (Do you agree?)
2. Arminianism is a false gospel. (Do you agree?)
3. Therefore, all who believe in Arminianism are not saved.

Now, you do not agree with the conclusion above because you said,

Erinwilcox said:
- “I was an Arminian for many years and I was saved.”
- “My parents were Arminian for almost twenty years and they were saved during that time.”


Since I know that you do NOT agree with the conclusion presented above, this means that you must disagree with one of the two premises since the conclusion logically follows from the premises. If one does not believe the first premise, then you do not believe in an exclusive gospel, but rather that "there are many paths to God”, seeing that if one could be saved while believing in a false gospel, then it must not make any difference what a saved person believes. If you do not believe the second premise, then you either do not know what Arminianism is or you do not know what the gospel is. Since you do know what Arminianism is, then you must not understand what the gospel is. Now, if you claim to believe the second premise and yet do not believe the conclusion you are a liar according to the 1John 2:21-22.

-jonas
 
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frumanchu

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jonas, are you willing to state before God and man, without qualification, that you are 100% correct in every fact and facet of your doctrinal beliefs and that you do not hold any positions which are even slightly incorrect?
 
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jonas3

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frumanchu said:
jonas, are you willing to state before God and man, without qualification, that you are 100% correct in every fact and facet of your doctrinal beliefs and that you do not hold any positions which are even slightly incorrect?

I absolutely believe the GOSPEL. I have NO ERROR in relation to the gospel. I will stand before God being justified by God given FAITH, which faith professes, that God has promised to save His people conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone totally apart from the sinners efforts. I know that I am saved because of the work of Jesus Christ alone for His people alone.

-jonas
 
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Erinwilcox

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I said logical conclusion, I did not quote your statement. If there is no Arminian presently saved, then that is basically saying that no one who is an Arminian can be saved. Thus, as long as someone remains an Arminian, they are not saved. Thus, anyone throughout history or in the future who lives and dies as an Arminian would not be saved. That is the logical conclusion of your statement. This is false. The doctrinal errors of the Arminians are not damning in and of themselves. True, not all Arminians are saved because many have false assurance because they failed to repent and believe (they prayed a prayer). However, the the Bible says to believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. Many Arminians have done this. The Bible does not say, "You must agree with Calvinistic doctrine and you shall be saved." Thus, doctrinal misconceptions like the Arminians are not damning like the ones of that huge church whose name I must not here name :D. The one teaches salvation by works. . .the Arminians still believe that one must trust in Christ for salvation.
 
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frumanchu

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jonas3 said:
I absolutely believe the GOSPEL. I have NO ERROR in relation to the gospel. I will stand before God being justified by God given FAITH, which faith professes, that God has promised to save His people conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone totally apart from the sinners efforts. I know that I am saved because of the work of Jesus Christ alone for His people alone.

-jonas

The problem here, jonas, is that you are being inconsistent in applying that principle in saying that God has "promised to save His people conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone totally apart from the sinners efforts" while at the same time condemning men who do not intellectually accept or agree with all the particulars of how that is accomplished.

I know of no Arminian (I'm speaking both historically and experientially) who would disagree with the Gospel message as you presented it above.

I believe that Arminians are saved, albeit by "felicitous inconsistency" (with apologies to Sproul).
 
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