Questions of conversion from Catholic to Orthodox

MariaRegina · May 19, 2004

Rising_Suns said:
I would also be carefull in saying that our Church makes it easier to get to heaven; that is almost putting us in the same boat with Protestants.

Dear Davide:

Please read carefully what I said. I didn't say that the Latin Church makes it easier to get into heaven, but that the Latin Church has dramatically eased the fasting requirement.

Fasting is so very important to the Spiritual life. Without fasting, we cannot hope to overcome sin in our lives. Our Lord said, "when you fast" nor If you fast. Prayer and fasting is the only way to get rid of some demons, especially those of lust.

Yours truly in Christ,
Elizabeth

Rising_Suns · May 19, 2004

If the Eastern Orthodox Church is not heretical, according to the RCC...

...then why is the RCC evangelizing members of the Eastern Orthodox Church?

The Catholic Church does not see them as preaching a different gospel from us, yet there is a great schism between us; one that is greatly hindering the sake of all believers everywhere. I believe it is unwise for the leaders of both our Church's to be evangalizing each other when there is a whole world desparately needing to hear the gospel; it was a mistake on the part of the Church because the Catechism is quite clear in how the Catholic Church views the Orthodox (see below)....

Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Paragraph 3, SubSection 3, Heading 3
838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." 322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church." 323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist." 324

As such, we permit Orthodox to receive the Eucharist in our Church's, and rightfully so. However, we do not get the same honor.

MariaRegina · May 20, 2004

Rising_Suns said:
The Catholic Church does not see them as preaching a different gospel from us, yet there is a great schism between us; one that is greatly hindering the sake of all believers everywhere. I believe it is unwise for the leaders of both our Church's to be evangalizing each other when there is a whole world desparately needing to hear the gospel; it was a mistake on the part of the Church because the Catechism is quite clear in how the Catholic Church views the Orthodox (see below)....

Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Paragraph 3, SubSection 3, Heading 3
838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." 322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church." 323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist." 324

As such, we permit Orthodox to receive the Eucharist in our Church's, and rightfully so. However, we do not get the same honor.

In certain cases, Greece will even give Holy Communion to Catholics with permission of both bishops. However, due to lax practices, if this practice is allowed, then the Catholic must go to confession regularly to the Orthodox Priest as he directs which could be every week. One Catholic did so and entered the Byzantine Catholic monastery shortly thereafter.

In Syria and the Middle East, intercommunion is now the practice. But in those countries, the people live their lives knowing that they could be martyred for the faith at any time. Most of us in this country do not know the true meaning of repentance. This practice of intercommunion is not allowed here for that reason. However, there are several Orthodox churches where intercommunion is allowed because there is no Catholic Church nearby. Needless to say, the Catholics must regularly offer their confessions to the Orthodox Priest.

Hope this helps

It's all a matter of repentance.

Your sister in Christ,
Elizabeth

Suzannah · May 20, 2004

[mod hat on]I don't like being ignored.

Lord have mercy
Lord have mercy
Lord have mercy,

Bless O Lord!

[/mod hat off]

Everyone take twenty minutes to cool off.

Rising_Suns · May 20, 2004

But, it is worth noting that it seems that the Orthodox disagree with the dogma, not the definition itself.

Exactly. We believe in the exact same mystery of the Eucharist; the Catholic Church just has an official definition for it, and all it basically says is that it is a mystery in which the bread and wine become the actual body and blood of Christ. That is it. And that is exactly what the Orthodox Church believes.

I do not understand why so many look for and enflame these minor differences.

Suzannah said:
[mod hat on]I don't like being ignored.

Lord have mercy
Lord have mercy
Lord have mercy,

Bless O Lord!

[/mod hat off]

Everyone take twenty minutes to cool off.

I apologize suzannah. I should take a break, since I do not want to break the rules any more than I have. Thank you for your chairty!

JasonS · May 20, 2004

Aria said:
A few centuries ago a whole monastery of Dominican monks converted willingly to Orthodoxy in Greece. It was their choice.

A whole convent of nuns in Rome recently went Orthodox and again it was their choice. Archbishop Sypridon received them. They saw the faith pure and simple being lived in Orthodoxy. The Divine Liturgy is so majestic. This is what drew me to Orthodox too.

No one is talking about those who willingly convert. Alot of Orthodox willingly convert to Catholicism too. Whole congregations did centuries ago. But were talking about prosyletism or evangelising other churches. Like my Sicily example, the orthodox bishop there thinks that because Sicily used to be a part of Byzantium and that some of them used to use the byzantine rite, then they should all convert to eastern orthodoxy and "re-discover" their lost heritage.

That's all well and good but Byzantium doesn't exists anymore and there hasn't been any significant greek presence in Sicily for over a thousand years. Even then it was mixed Latin and Greek rite. That's prosyletism.

Now I'm not saying that all orthodox engage in that but it does happen. Some Catholics do that too. I don't want to get into an arguement and just leave it with my original statement that there are loose canons on both sides.

Lotar · May 20, 2004

Rising_Suns said:
Exactly. We believe in the exact same mystery of the Eucharist; the Catholic Church just has an official definition for it, and all it basically says is that it is a mystery in which the bread and wine become the actual body and blood of Christ. That is it. And that is exactly what the Orthodox Church believes.

No, it goes beyond, to use a metaphysical definition. It is something that many would agree with, but last I heard what the Orthodox Church says is that it is a mystery that should not be defined. It is the same thing that has always been a disagreement between Lutherans and Catholics, not the Real Presence, not even transubstantiation, but making a definition of the mystery dogma.

DjHurricane · May 20, 2004

ok, let me re-iterate transubstantiation is obviousley dogma--but it is dogma that THE EO ACCEPTS, but because Rome has coined a term for it the EO has to reject the term. Politics politics politics. as a matter of fact i have heard most orthodox bishops discussing transubstantiation so i think that the only people left who think that the EO doesnt believe in transubstantiation are a few internet fundamentalists.

ALso, as a previous post said, lets put aside our trivial "differences" and stand together as christ's true church. Then we could be united against the spread of protestantism and other such religions. Now theri is a REAL problem. Lets stop the arrogance and fundamentalism and stand strongly as christ's one only holy catholic and apostolic church saving souls and preventing our members form falling prey to protestant, muslim, or other evangleists.

JasonS · May 20, 2004

Lotar said:
No, it goes beyond, to use a metaphysical definition. It is something that many would agree with, but last I heard what the Orthodox Church says is that it is a mystery that should not be defined. It is the same thing that has always been a disagreement between Lutherans and Catholics, not the Real Presence, not even transubstantiation, but making a definition of the mystery dogma.

Don't most lutherans believe in consubstantiation?

thereselittleflower · May 20, 2004

Nickolai said:
Indugances are things done to lessen your stay in purgatory. things like saying your rosary or making a pilgrimage to Jerusalem.

If I may, this is close, but not quite accurate . .

Indlulgences is not something we do . . they are something that is granted if certain conditions are met .. you just can't "do" something . . and they have nothing to do with forgiveness of sin, but only to remit temporal effects of sin that may still have to be suffered . . much like you rob a bank, you are truly sorry and change your life, never to do it again, but you are still taken to trial nad have to spend time in prison. An Indulgence is like having the time you have to spend in jail lessened . .

But it is much more than that. Because we see purgatory as a purifying fire, the purification one is purified with resultes in less suffering because of the indulgence granted . . we think within time, but this is outside of time . .

i realize that the EO do not agree with purgatory . . but this is what indulgences are to us in effect . . we believe all beievers will go through a purifying fire in which all will be tried . .and some will come through suffering loss, though with their lives as though through fire . .

If I could ask, how do the EO understand that passage in scripture?

Peace in Him!

thereselittleflower · May 20, 2004

insearchof2 said:
Thank you,
Now I have even more questions. I must say I am actually just coming back into the church again after a few years away. I am a little rusty. What is Papal pimacy of jurisdiction? Papal infallibility, and transubstantiation?

Also,
Do you write icons? I have been taking classes with an Iconographer from Russia every few years. I have compleated about three. I do believe they are pulling me in. The more I write icons the more I want to be involved with the Orthodox church.

Linda

Hi Linda,

It is wonderful to hear you are coming back to the Church .. I was raised EO, and have just converted to the Catholic Faith . .can I recommend that you also ask the same questions in OBOB as how the EO understand some of what we believe, and how we understand it can be different.

I wish you the best in your search for the truth and where God wants you to be,

Peace in Him!

thereselittleflower · May 20, 2004

JasonS said:
What I think is the biggest difference between Catholics and Orthodox today are philosophical differences. The Orthodox are geared more towards ascetism and mysticism while Catholics are geared more towards rationalism. Both appeal to different mindsets. Some people prefer a more mystical experience in their worship while others like a more rational approach to holy living. I think that's why Pope John Paul II correctly states that Catholics and Orthodox are like "two lungs" belonging to the same body.

On their own I doubt Catholics and Orthodox would be able to appeal to everyone everywhere. But united the Church would be an incredibly powerful force for good on the planet. Too bad that's not likely to happen any time soon but one day.....who knows. God works in mysterious ways.

That's my over simplified take on things.

But we also have to remember that the Eastern way of looking at things is also part of Catholicism overall . .

There are thousands of Eastern Rite Churches which approach Christian spirituality from the EO perspecitive, yet they are still in communion with Rome . .. We speak about the Catholic Church and mean the Latin rite . . but there are several Eastern Rites within Catholicism as well . .

We Do in fact offer something that can appeal to everyone . . unless they do not want to accept the authority of the Pope . . .

Peace in Him!

thereselittleflower · May 20, 2004

Lotar said:
Chapter IV of Session 13 of the Council of Trent, makes Transubstantiation dogma.

I think what he meant was that Catholic Doctrine does not attempt to tell us "HOW" the bread and wine become the body and blood of our Lord . .

We attempt to explain the "what" . . not the how .. we have no idea how God makes it happen . .that is a mystery . .

Peace in Him!

thereselittleflower · May 20, 2004

Matrona said:
If the Eastern Orthodox Church is not heretical, according to the RCC...

...then why is the RCC evangelizing members of the Eastern Orthodox Church?

Is the RCC is doing it because it secretly believes that the Orthodox are heretics? I can understand that--but what I can't understand about that case is why the RCC wouldn't just out and out call us heretics.

Why does the RCC push us away with one arm... and drag us closer with the other?

Matrona whrere is that happening that the RCC is actively evangelizing members of the EO?

When the priest of my parish found out I had been raised EO, he was very hesitant about allowing me to come in . .it was only after I explained to him that I really did fully accept the authority of the Pope, and asked him where else would I go, that he allowed me to . .

Peace in Him!

thereselittleflower · May 20, 2004

DjHurricane said:
ok, let me re-iterate transubstantiation is obviousley dogma--but it is dogma that THE EO ACCEPTS, but because Rome has coined a term for it the EO has to reject the term. Politics politics politics. as a matter of fact i have heard most orthodox bishops discussing transubstantiation so i think that the only people left who think that the EO doesnt believe in transubstantiation are a few internet fundamentalists.

Thank you Hurricane. That is really what it is about . .politics. I wish it were not so . .

ALso, as a previous post said, lets put aside our trivial "differences" and stand together as christ's true church. Then we could be united against the spread of protestantism and other such religions. Now theri is a REAL problem. Lets stop the arrogance and fundamentalism and stand strongly as christ's one only holy catholic and apostolic church saving souls and preventing our members form falling prey to protestant, muslim, or other evangleists.

AMEN!!!!

Peace in Him!

Carrye · May 20, 2004

DjHurricane said:
ALso, as a previous post said, lets put aside our trivial "differences" and stand together as christ's true church. Then we could be united against the spread of protestantism and other such religions. Now theri is a REAL problem. Lets stop the arrogance and fundamentalism and stand strongly as christ's one only holy catholic and apostolic church saving souls and preventing our members form falling prey to protestant, muslim, or other evangleists.

Now that is the best thing I have heard in a long, long time. You know, I'm not a big "put our differences aside" kind of person - usually the differences in question, at least with many Protestants, are fundamental ones. I just don't see it with my EO brothers and sisters. We are so similar and share so much. Oh to be one!

Iacobus · May 20, 2004

thereselittleflower said:
Matrona whrere is that happening that the RCC is actively evangelizing members of the EO?

I'm not Matrona, but I'll give it a shot. Russia comes to mind, as does the activity of any number of uniate churches.

I ordinarily enjoy your posts, but aren't you pushing the envelope in this case?

James

Rising_Suns · May 20, 2004

I'm not Matrona, but I'll give it a shot. Russia comes to mind, as does the activity of any number of uniate churches.

I ordinarily enjoy your posts, but aren't you pushing the envelope in this case?

this is not the place to discuss this conversation. There have been attempts by both sides of the Church to evangelize each other, and lets humbly leave it at that for the sake of abiding to the rules and staying on topic.

EDIT: for some reason i mistakenly thought this thread was in the reformed discussion forum. I seriously got confused as to why there was an EO/RCC discussion in a reformed thread, heh. anyway it's late; don't mind me.

Orthodox Andrew · May 20, 2004

*Mod hat on*

To our non-Orthodox friends. No matter how tempting it may be, please refrain from debating.

*Mod hat off*

MariaRegina · May 21, 2004

Rising_Suns said:
this is not the place to discuss this conversation. There have been attempts by both sides of the Church to evangelize each other, and lets humbly leave it at that for the sake of abiding to the rules and staying on topic.

EDIT: for some reason i mistakenly thought this thread was in the reformed discussion forum. I seriously got confused as to why there was an EO/RCC discussion in a reformed thread, heh. anyway it's late; don't mind me.

Of all our OBOB posters, you are the most polite. Thanks, Davide.

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