Questions of communion

[Paidiske]

This is causing much local comment, and I thought might be of interest here also: Letter to Australia’s bishops

 

[gordonhooker]

Thanks I have read the three letters and it is hard to say how I feel about this. Will need to reflect on this for a while.

 

[seeking.IAM]

These are interesting times for the Anglican Communion and for those who claim Anglicanism and would like to be part of the Anglican Communion. Since both are represented in this forum, I expect interesting dialogue to follow. As for me, I rather like The Most Reverend Dr. Freier's stance. I expect others will come along shortly to disagree.

I hope to hear more about the reactions within Australia.

 

[Paidiske]

My little corner of Melbourne is unimpressed with the actions of Bishops Davies and Condie. But then, we are seeing more communion expressed between the diocese of Sydney, and ACNA, than between the diocese of Sydney, and the rest of the dioceses of Australia, with which Sydney is supposedly in full communion.

 

[seeking.IAM]

Have not Bishops Davies and Condie overstepped their bounds? Perhaps I see it wrongly, but being in communion seems to me to be a matter for the broader church as opposed to the opinion of a few Bishops.

 

[Paidiske]

I think they have. The primate's letter seems to indicate that he thinks so, too.

I can see an argument for how their participation in the consecration is valid, but not that it is licit. They have no authority to consecrate a bishop for another church.

 

[seeking.IAM]

And, is there not a matter of obedience? Are they not to submit to the canons, traditions, and order of the communion lest they be deemed rogues?

 

[gordonhooker]

I have to say I agree with Phillip, but I am sure I will hear Richards side of the story via his mum whom I worship with here in Brisbane.

 

[Philip_B]

I believe that the Primates response is measured and clear. Anyone in Episcopal Orders who is concerned about the Anglican Communion as a Communion, must surely reach for the Bex, as the rubber band of Anglicanism gets stretched and stretched and stretched some more.

It seems increasingly we are prepared to push the boundaries. Anglican accommodations have always allowed a diversity of thought in line with the Augustinian motif that @seeking.IAM uses in their signature. In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity but of late much of the Communion and the UnCommunion has seen an overbalance for liberty and an underexpression of unity, and precious little charity.

I believe the Primate is asking us to take a chill pill, and for us to decide if communion matters or not. I have known him for over 35 years, and I think that this letter is some of his best, and he has certainly gone up in my estimation as a result of it.

 

[Paidiske]

Small world, gordon!

 

[gordonhooker]

Small world, gordon!

It is even a little smaller than that... Phillip is one of my fellow brothers of the Franciscan Third order (tssf). So yes it is very small world...

 

[Shane R]

I have been reflecting on this from an historical perspective because there would be no TEC without the intervention of the SEC border-crossing to consecrate +Samuel Seabury. There would be no continuing Anglican movement without any number of bishops consecrating outside of their immediate jurisdiction. But the common thread through both of those historical realities is that there was a need for new bishops whether due to a geographical reality or a perceived lack of orthodoxy. What I do not approve of is setting up 'affinity dioceses' wherein parishes are clustered under a particular bishop because he agrees with what they want to be and do. The USA is plagued with this problem.

In the case of the recent consecration, a case could be made that orthodoxy has been compromised within the SEC BUT there is no geographical need as alternative episcopal oversight has been available to the UK for some time in the form of TAC, ACC, FCE, and more recently that fellow that was consecrated by the S. African quasi-GAFCON affiliates. If the argument is made that all of those bishops are out of communion with Canterbury, well so is +Andy Lines. Nothing was gained that was not already available. And I agree with ++Freier that there is something lacking in the category of good order and discipline with what took place.

As for the arguments floating around centered on the Canons of Nicaea, I really doubt anyone wants to pursue that line of argument very far. This usage of the canons is self-serving to say the least. If we wish to pursue the conciliar corpus how far shall we take this: three councils, four, six, all seven? Some on the far fringes of Anglo-Catholicism would accept Trent and possibly everything up to Vatican I.

 

[Albion]

Wow. I am surprised at that post, Shane, because the matter -- and the way you addressed it -- mirrors my thinking almost exactly. What are the odds of that, given the various complexities and multiple subjects involved?

My first impression upon reading the various bishops' letters was "That ship has already sailed." Long ago, in fact.

And the second one was "The Australian primate is appealing for his people to stay out of this, which I can appreciate, but his use of Nicaea as a talking point was startlingly inaccurate."

 

[Padres1969]

Have not Bishops Davies and Condie overstepped their bounds? Perhaps I see it wrongly, but being in communion seems to me to be a matter for the broader church as opposed to the opinion of a few Bishops.

That would be my view as well. If they're consecrating a Missionary Bishop to Europe, in contravention of the existing Churches and Episcopate in those territories, in concert with the ACNA... then they'd be acting in a manner that suggests they're no longer in communion with those churches or territorial Bishops (including the Archbishop of Canterbury). If they're not in communion with Canterbury, IMO they've repudiated the Anglican Communion in favor of the ACNA/GAFCON (which has itself effectively done the same thing vis-a-vis the AC by pushing for this Missionary Bishop to Europe in the first place).

At this point it seems we have de facto two Communions, the Anglican Communion, and the ACNA/GAFCON Communion. And Bishops Davies and Condie have chosen the side they're moving toward (ACNA/GAFCON). It would seem a split as we've had in North America, and now has taken hold in Europe, may be coming to Australia as well. Feel like the whole communion is a jacket zipper at this point that's about halfway unzipped. North America was at the collar, Europe a little further down the zipper, and so on...

 

[gordonhooker]

Hi Padres I don't believe it will change anything here in Australia. The Sydney diocese has been out of step with the rest of us for years and I can only assume it always will be, and +Richard is of the same ilk as in both are Evangelical Anglicans.

 

[Paidiske]

Not all evangelicals are of the Sydney flavour. I can think of evangelicals who've been very supportive of the ordination of women, for example (Leon Morris comes to mind). It's a particular type of evangelicalism which is being pushed by Sydney and folks like Bishop Condie.

And it's worth noting - in case those here in continuing Anglican bodies think Sydney is some sort of champion of Anglican orthodoxy here - that Sydney doesn't really care about normative Anglican practice in all kinds of ways. Deacons routinely (if illegally) preside at the Eucharist in that diocese, as just one example.

 

[gordonhooker]

Not all evangelicals are of the Sydney flavour. I can think of evangelicals who've been very supportive of the ordination of women, for example (Leon Morris comes to mind). It's a particular type of evangelicalism which is being pushed by Sydney and folks like Bishop Condie.

And it's worth noting - in case those here in continuing Anglican bodies think Sydney is some sort of champion of Anglican orthodoxy here - that Sydney doesn't really care about normative Anglican practice in all kinds of ways. Deacons routinely (if illegally) preside at the Eucharist in that diocese, as just one example.

Paidiske I was not trying to generalise and say all evangelical Anglicans were of the same ilk as the Sydney Archbishop I was saying Bishop Richard is of that ilk. One of my lecturers at CSU is a Sydney Anglican is not of the same ilk as some Sydney Anglicans.

 

[Philip_B]

Member Churches of the Anglican Communion
Member Churches

Churches in full Communion with the Anglican Communion
Anglicans Online | In Full Communion

Anglican Churches not in Communion with the Anglican Communion
Anglicans Online | Churches not 'in the Communion'

Gafcon Churches
Global Movement | GAFCON

Sadly I have to say, I find this impossibly frustrating, and I have no idea what the answer is. It is not about good people and bad people, it is not about those who hear Christ and those who do not, it is about the reality that Anglicans have stopped listening to each other. By the way I know these lists won't be all up to date as that would be a full time job for a team of workers. There remains for me something immensely beautiful about Anglican diversity and generosity of inclusion, about grace and order, and it seems somehow we are throwing it all away.

Let us cherish the tradition which has nurtured us.

 

[Padres1969]

Member Churches of the Anglican Communion
Member Churches

Churches in full Communion with the Anglican Communion
Anglicans Online | In Full Communion

Anglican Churches not in Communion with the Anglican Communion
Anglicans Online | Churches not 'in the Communion'

Gafcon Churches
Global Movement | GAFCON

Sadly I have to say, I find this impossibly frustrating, and I have no idea what the answer is. It is not about good people and bad people, it is not about those who hear Christ and those who do not, it is about the reality that Anglicans have stopped listening to each other. By the way I know these lists won't be all up to date as that would be a full time job for a team of workers. There remains for me something immensely beautiful about Anglican diversity and generosity of inclusion, about grace and order, and it seems somehow we are throwing it all away.

Let us cherish the tradition which has nurtured us.

Well said!

 

[Albion]

Although we are represented on this forum, the Continuing Anglican churches are the one grouping of Anglicans that is not involved in the event that is the focus of this thread. Not to my knowledge, anyway.

And as for the Diocese of Sydney, my impression is that Sydney isn't talked about much at all in Continuing Anglican circles.