Questions I would like to ask Catholics

[2WhomShallWeGo]

Thank you. However, I still don't see how a sacrifice would take the place of burning away the bad that is left spiritually. I'll read the link

A sacrifice that involves giving up material goods for God. (whether they be animals or money or something else.) accomplishes a discipline in the will and body by making material possessions subordinate to spiritual goods. This does not burn away sin by itself but it disposes a person to sorrow for sin and innordinate love of materials of the things of God. Sorrow over sin is necessary for forgiveness. So the sacrifice of material things makes forgiveness possible by making us desirous of it.

 

[2WhomShallWeGo]

OK. I probably know the answer to this. One needs to be made a Saint by the church.

Does Purgatory hurt?

God makes saints not the Church.
Saints are already saints regardless of and before the Church prenouncment. The Church prenouncement only points out that certain people who are saints are saints. So that we will know and be able to make use of their example

 

[2WhomShallWeGo]

Does lack of stain of sin on one's soul indicate spiritual purity?

Can "stain of sin" be defined better for sake of understanding?



Do Catholics fear Purgatory?

Why "yes" or why "no"?

Thanks,
Ed

Purgatory is a bit of a mixed bag. It is a place of Joy and Pain. Joy because you know where you are going, pain because the process of purification is painful. Does one fear such a process? well I suppose that depends on the person. On the one hand why would one fear something that get you into heaven. but on the other If purgatory is super painful then why would you not want to avoid it.

Lets just say any catholic should be doing there best to get to heaven and they should avoid sin regardless.

 

[2WhomShallWeGo]

Yes, it does.
What exactly should Catholic Christians be fearful of exactly?
Fear of facing purity of God in our sinful state? Like an awe-type of a state? Fear of pain? Fear of facing our sins in their raw state?
Fear of punishment?

Can you help me with more precise definition(s)?

Another question.
If through Purgatory imperfect can become perfect, are you saying then the Saints on this Earth (the ones the Church recognized as such) achieved perfection?

Can one define perfection or is this left for God to decide?
Scars and memories I understand. These do not interfere with perfection.

If I am going too deep with questions please tell me to stop and I will.
I did not come to cause problems.

I simply never asked a Catholic such questions.

Thanks,
In Christ,
Ed

Edited to add: Love your name ...

From what I have gathered of the church teachings: (should anything be different from the churches teaching then I submit to her teachings as being from God as she is our primary and authoritative guide to understanding all of public revelation)

The thing that All men should fear most is Sin. Unfortunetly we often don't. It is contrary to our nature as God made us. It separates us from God who is the source of our being our fullfillment and consequently any hope of peace and happiness, without which any momentary joy is hollow and temporary and gives way to bottomless despair and self loathing. Sin is the essence of hell. But We should never be overly fearful as God enables us to avoid these things

The primary punishment of both purgatory and hell is separation from God after all what could really be worse. Even when we think we are experiencing that here it is not really going on we are usually just throwing ourselves a pity party. One of the main difference between the souls in purgatory and hell is that the souls purgatory desire union even to the annihilation of their bad habits and attachments due and to sin and when push comes to shove would rather endure anything rather than be separated from God; but the souls in hell however do not desire a union this is not something that will ever change. The theologians of the church go into detail as to why this is, but to suffice it to say that part of the reason we change our minds is because we have imperfect fickle bodies. in hell we either have none or after the final resurrection all whether they in hell or heaven get perfect ones.

AS to the perfection of the saints they are perfect in a sense not in every sense. They are perfect in their lack of sin. And their desire for God has become more perfect. It is good to note that most saints did not start out as anything like perfect. Through a process involving much of Gods mercy and personal sacrifice and much suffering they opened themselves wider and wider to Gods Love&Grace&Truth.

 

[ChristoEtEcclesiae]

OK.
... you see, I could never understand this type of purification simply from technical perspective.

Here is what I mean.

Source of much (if not all sin) is own body - gone.
Christ will give us new body.

Own spirit that used to generate the influence of sin - gone.
We'll have Holy Spirit.

I mean - this is a basic spiritual surgery.

Get a bunch of trained angels in white coats and masks, put US under, do the job - READY FOR HEAVEN.

In Christ,
Ed

Psalm 88:31-34

And if his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments: If they profane my justices: and keep not my commandments: I will visit their iniquities with a rod: and their sins with stripes. But my mercy I will not take away from him: nor will I suffer my truth to fail.

I don't expect a Lutheran to understand the Bible; perhaps its perennial inconvenience to the Protestant cause was why Luther and his conspirators put it to the chopping block. Just in case, though, that might help you understand the reasoning behind the existence of Purgatory.

What you suggest the angels do deprives us of free will. It is our choice to glorify God and if we sin then we get what we deserve.

 

[Edial]

Psalm 88:31-34

And if his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments: If they profane my justices: and keep not my commandments: I will visit their iniquities with a rod: and their sins with stripes. But my mercy I will not take away from him: nor will I suffer my truth to fail.

I don't expect a Lutheran to understand the Bible; perhaps its perennial inconvenience to the Protestant cause was why Luther and his conspirators put it to the chopping block. Just in case, though, that might help you understand the reasoning behind the existence of Purgatory.

What you suggest the angels do deprives us of free will. It is our choice to glorify God and if we sin then we get what we deserve.

. Did you know that us Lutherans look up the Bible in Wikipedia?

At least Luther left us beer.

So, the Psalm 88 talks about Purgatory then? And if a poor widow dies she will be "visited with a rod"?
OK. If you say so.

Back to Wikipedia.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[ChristoEtEcclesiae]

. Did you know that us Lutherans look up the Bible in Wikipedia?

At least Luther left us beer.

So, the Psalm 88 talks about Purgatory then? And if a poor widow dies she will be "visited with a rod"?
OK. If you say so.

Back to Wikipedia.

Thanks,
Ed

It could be a reference to Purgatory, yes. It could also be a reference to Hell, except in that case it would be an eternity of getting the rod for one's sins.

 

[Edial]

Purgatory is a bit of a mixed bag. It is a place of Joy and Pain. Joy because you know where you are going, pain because the process of purification is painful. Does one fear such a process? well I suppose that depends on the person. On the one hand why would one fear something that get you into heaven. but on the other If purgatory is super painful then why would you not want to avoid it.

Lets just say any catholic should be doing there best to get to heaven and they should avoid sin regardless.

Thank you. I certainly can understand this inner struggle and some uncertainty.

Ed

 

[Edial]

God makes saints not the Church.
Saints are already saints regardless of and before the Church prenouncment. The Church prenouncement only points out that certain people who are saints are saints. So that we will know and be able to make use of their example

How do you know about them?
What do you know about them, so you could imitate?
Give me an example?

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Edial]

It could be a reference to Purgatory, yes. It could also be a reference to Hell, except in that case it would be an eternity of getting the rod for one's sins.

So since you are saying this could be Purgatory, are you saying that any poor widow will be beaten up with a rod?

 

[ChristoEtEcclesiae]

How do you know about them?
What do you know about them, so you could imitate?
Give me an example?

Thanks,
Ed

There are books written about their exploits.

So since you are saying this could be Purgatory, are you saying that any poor widow will be beaten up with a rod?

Ask God. How much she has sinned will surely have a lot to do with it.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Subscribing

 

[JoabAnias]

OK. So, temporal punishment is a result of temporal sins. Basically what comes comes around goes around.

No not exactly. Temporal punishment is the result of sin. Its the temporal effect that is left over from committing a sin. The consequence if you will.

Christ said that he came to fulfill the law, not to abrogate it. That every penny of the sin debt must be paid. (Matt 5:26)

For a hypothetical example; one may commit fornication and suffer a disease as a result. Though they may repent with sincere contrition of heart or even imperfect contrition and by choosing to do what is right, receive absolution from one of Gods Priests who have that faculty (to act in Christ), and change their ways, amend their lives and be absolved by God of sinning against him and even ones self, the disease they retain would be the temporal effect of their sin.

And I understand clearly that there are people who simply would no "really" confess or forgive someone from the heart, etc.
So, stuff like this remains on one's conscience.
The temporal sin remains, simply because a person cannot or would not admit and confess everything he did wrong.
Excuses and explanations are the usual cover up.

Again not exactly, as explained above, temporal effects are the consequences of a sin that may very well be forgiven, but not every penny of its debt is yet repaid. If we leave this life with those debts, they may or may not prevent us from heaven. That is up to God to determine if the last penny is paid or not. But our inherent concupiscence can preclude us from entering heaven because of the effect it has on our disposition. We cannot enter heaven with a proclivity to sin. If we have not cooperated fully with grace then we will not be ready. That does not necessarily mean we have not chosen God before dying. In that situation God, in his Mercy, provides for a mean of purification so that we may be admitted to full union with him. This provision is what we call purgation. Anyone with the correct understanding would be unable to be afraid of such purification because the goal would outweigh the fear. Just as having a wound dressed or a tooth fixed would. There may be a twinge in the process but the result is being fully healed.

(By the way. I am terrible at reading links. I'd rather have one-on-one).

You asked for a better definition of the stain of sin. Why ask if your not interested in the background when it is given to you?

Lets look at the Catechism again which may help to understand what "temporal" means:

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain. [Part of attaining that complete purification would be repaying every penny. For example, enduring or making amends for the temporal effect of the sin committed.]

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the "old man" and to put on the "new man."

For another hypothetical practical example; Lets say someone commits adultery and their spouse cannot forgive and commits the sin of divorce. Part of that pain for the adulterer is that abandonment and can even be to be liable for support of children they suffer separation from. They repent, are sincerely sorry, amend their whole lives and are redeemed by the blood of Jesus, yet the consequence of their sin remains and if they are to be completely redeemed they must remain responsible and repay as Jesus said; every last cent to the best of their ability.

If I'm in a ball park, what is the difference between Hades and Purgatory?

Hell is the permanent absence of God. That anguish is eternal separation from God by ones willful choice. Purgatory is a removal of ones residual proclivity to sin. The sinfulness that we have prayed to be free of here on Earth.

What I mean is this. Hades has compartments. The greatest of sinners suffer a lot and the good people sleep there. (At least that's the way it was in the OT [Sheol] with a carry-over to NT [Hades]).

(The Great White Throne Judgment comes in the future and there is that "second" hell called Gehenna or Burning Lake).

Hades also (probably) had the compartment of Abraham's Bosom as well.

Is Purgatory in Hades?

Prior to the coming and redemption of Jesus the gates of heaven were closed. There were many who were justified who could not enter heaven. They were not in hell or heaven. They were in a place awaiting the redemption of Christ that we often describe as the Bosom of Abraham. Scripture describes Jesus going there to welcome them home.

You are not afraid of Purgatory because it is an assurance of Heaven.
Fair enough. I find this fascinating.

Not only for that reason but because I see it as a removal of my residual inherent sinfulness that I abhor because it has separated me from God.

So, in a way you do not mind the pain?

I do not see it as pain, any more than I would see practicing virtue that denies my sinful nature as painful. That the pursuit of holiness is painful is unrealistic, while someone who is a slave to sin might disagree. This would be a worldly view of sin and virtue. The worldly prefers the self as ones center when God tells us that he is our center and that submitting to he as our center is for our best interest.

I am bringing the topic of pain again because that is my practical understanding of Purgatory, pain ... and this is such a unique teaching ... and pain is something so feared and shunned by people.

Which is a fear of the flesh. Doing Gods will sometimes requires overcoming natural fear. Not all perceived pain is bad. That belief comes from a prosperity Gospel that is unbiblical.

The pain part makes no sense to me.
Purgatory as painless purification? - sure.
We do pray Lord's Prayer every day daily sins.
We do mess up every day ...

I would understand if purification would be made in a painless manner.
But if a poor woman asks God for mercy, would she get pain?

You see what I mean?

Yes I do. It is the fruit of sin that is painful though no one can recognize that without the graces of the Holy Spirit. The word tells us such purification can be as if by fire.

1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

We all go through many fires of sorts even here on Earth:

1 Corinthians 3:13
Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is.

We call these trials that God allows. They give our sufferings that we bear redemptive meaning.

Perhaps you have exercised and heard that if there is no pain there is no gain. But would you call the exertion from exercise that makes you stronger and healthier a pain to avoid? What is the result of avoiding that pain? The results are a hastened death. Sin as well, is a hastening of death of the soul.

Back to the Catechism: the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. [because it is allowed by the Lord to guide us to him.] We must chose to cooperate with God allows or to make amends for what sin causes the best we are able. God will know our hearts. We cannot decieve him. To think we can is to decieve ourselves.

Purification, even if painful, IS Mercy. The flesh is temporal, the soul is immortal. Fear not the one who can destroy the flesh but the one who can destroy the soul. (Mat 10:28) Purgatory is a cleansing of the soul. What people fear may be a pain of the flesh, never realizing the difference.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

(1) Please explain the teaching of Purgatory. I'm asking for Scripture first and then other sources after that please. Do all Protestants reject the belief of Purgatory?

As a Protestant, I simply do not understand it. I have tried to learn about it from Catholic sources, and as usual, I'm just as confused as I was before I started. I'm not sure if I should even consult Protestant sources. Many Protestant members have posted quite a bit of information and sources disputing Purgatory in General Theology. But should I believe these sources to be truth? The simple truth is I believe in salvation by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ's atonement alone. Therefore, I believe His atonement was sufficient and there is no other need for anything else. So, please help me understand why Catholics believe in Purgatory.

The easiest way to explain our understanding of Purgatory is by working backwards. In the Greek pagan religion (among others), it is clear that some myths are created to explain "why we do things" rather than doing things because the myth tells us we should. Now, the Christian religion is rather more organized and dogmatic than the pagan religions but the idea here is still the same -- with some things, it is not that we do something out of our belief in it but rather that we believe in something because we do it. So it is with Purgatory.

We believe in Purgatory because we pray for the dead. Why would we pray for the dead if there were no middle state? Certainly, those in Heaven cannot have their state improved by our prayers and those in Hell are beyond help. So if we pray for the dead, we must be praying to people in a middle state -- neither in Heaven nor in Hell.

It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

This is a Jewish (Old Testament) and not Christian context, but is telling that the Jewish practice of prayer and sacrifice on behalf of the dead is common. Modern Jews still pray for the dead. Kaddish is the most famous prayer but the El Malei Rachamim more clearly refers to the asking God that the souls of the faithful departed may "rest in peace", very similar to Catholic prayers for the dead.

One Lutheran in GT said that Lutherans pray for the dead* even though they deny a middle state because they hope that God -- who sees all of human history in a single shot -- would apply our prayers today to people living on earth yesterday (or last year) so that they might have been converted at the last moment prior to death. This seems plausible but convoluted, certainly not the simplest solution (although it is akin to the Immaculate Conception -- the merits of Christ's Crucifixion applied to His mother at the very instant of her conception).

There are no explicit teachings on Purgatory in Scripture but there are allusions.

And that servant who knew the will of his lord, and prepared not himself, and did not according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.

Assuming this refers to the afterlife, those in Heaven are not beaten at all and those in Hell are beaten forever, so who is beaten with "few stripes"? Those in a temporary, middle state -- Purgatory.

Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? why are they then baptized for them?

This has been a mysterious passage even since the early Church. Mormons actually "baptize" departed people using surrogates. Paul very likely is not referring to something like that or else there would be more evidence of that.

It is fairly likely what he is referring to is not water baptism but penance on behalf of the dead.

Jesus uses "baptism" in this fashion to refer to His Passion and the sufferings of James and John:

I am come to cast fire on the earth; and what will I, but that it be kindled? And I have a baptism wherewith I am to be baptized: and how am I straitened until it be accomplished?

And James and John the sons of Zebedee, come to him, saying: Master, we desire that whatsoever we shall ask, thou wouldst do it for us: But he said to them: What would you that I should do for you? And they said: Grant to us, that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory. And Jesus said to them: You know not what you ask. Can you drink of the chalice that I drink of: or be baptized with the baptism wherewith I am baptized? But they said to him: We can. And Jesus saith to them: You shall indeed drink of the chalice that I drink of: and with the baptism wherewith I am baptized, you shall be baptized. But to sit on my right hand, or on my left, is not mine to give to you, but to them for whom it is prepared.

So Paul likely referring to penances done on the behalf of the dead. We do them because we believe that they are alive and will be resurrected on the Last Day.

Paul also refers to one "Onesiphorus", but only to his household, which many people have understood to be his surviving family:

Salute Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus.

Earlier in that same letter he writes:

The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus: because he hath often refreshed me, and hath not been ashamed of my chain: But when he was come to Rome, he carefully sought me, and found me. The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou very well knowest.

Which, if we assume that Onesiphorus is dead (since he is only referred to indirectly and in the past tense), appears to be a short prayer for the repose of his soul, the same as we would do today.

We pray for the souls of the dead because we know that God is merciful. Only the perfect can enter Heaven and there are few who die in a state of perfection. Therefore, those who have confessed their sins and been forgiven but are not yet perfect must be purified prior to entering Heaven. Our prayers and penances on their behalf help them in that journey.

When I look at God, I see no gate to Paradise, and yet because God is all mercy he who wills enters there. God stands before us with open arms to receive us into His glory. But well I see the divine essence to be of such purity, greater far than can be imagined, that the soul in which there is even the least note of imperfection would rather cast itself into a thousand Hells than find itself thus stained in the presence of the Divine Majesty. Therefore the soul, understanding that Purgatory has been ordained to take away those stains, casts itself therein, and seems to itself to have found great mercy in that it can rid itself there of the impediment which is the stain of sin.

~~~
* Often using the same prayers as Catholics, such as the Requiem Aeternam: Eternal rest, grant unto them, O Lord, and let perpetual light shine upon them. May they rest in peace. Amen. ("they" may be replaced with "him" or "her" as is appropriate). The abbreviation R.I.P. on gravestones stands for "Requiescat In Pace" or "Rest In Peace" and is a prayer for the dead.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Purgatory even amongst Catholics is a vague understanding. The church admits it doesn't have all the answers about purgatory - we don't know where it is, how it is, or how long it is. It doesn't claim to have all the answers. Its a mystery even to us. But its believed based on Scriptures as MoreCoffee cited above.

To wit,

Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has, from the sacred writings and the ancient tradition of the Fathers, taught, in sacred councils, and very recently in this oecumenical Synod, that there is a Purgatory, and that the souls there detained are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar; the holy Synod enjoins on bishops that they diligently endeavour that the sound doctrine concerning Purgatory, transmitted by the holy Fathers and sacred councils, be believed, maintained, taught, and every where proclaimed by the faithful of Christ. But let the more difficult and subtle questions, and which tend not to edification, and from which for the most part there is no increase of piety, be excluded from popular discourses before the uneducated multitude. In like manner, such things as are uncertain, or which labour under an appearance of error, let them not allow to be made public and treated of. While those things which tend to a certain kind of curiosity or superstition, or which savour of filthy lucre, let them prohibit as scandals and stumbling-blocks of the faithful. But let the bishops take care, that the suffrages of the faithful who are living, to wit the sacrifices of masses, prayers, alms, and other works of piety, which have been wont to be performed by the faithful for the other faithful departed, be piously and devoutly performed, in accordance with the institutes of the church; and that whatsoever is due on their behalf, from the endowments of testators, or in other way, be discharged, not in a perfunctory manner, but diligently and accurately, by the priests and ministers of the church, and others who are bound to render this (service).

If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema.

So from this we know:

* There is a Purgatory
* Purgatory, along with penance on earth, exists to relieve the debt of temporal punishment
* Souls in Purgatory are helped by our prayers on earth, especially the Mass

Every sin has two main effects -- the eternal and the temporal. It is something like if I was 12 years old and stole a $20 bill from my mother's purse. If I don't tell her and she figures it out, I will be in big trouble. If I feel guilty and confess to her that I did so, she may forgive me but I still have to pay her back the $20. If we don't confess our sins before our death, we will be judged and found guilty and sentenced to eternal damnation. If we feel guilty and confess, God will forgive us and thus not sentence us to Hell but we still owe Him -- we still have to try to make recompense. We can only make recompense with what God gives us. If I'm 12 years old, I don't have a job and so I can only pay my mother back with chores that she gives me to do. God provides the means by which we can pay Him back for what we have done, even though for some crimes the debt is infinite (e.g. murder/abortion -- because human life is of infinite worth) so God replaces the infinite temporal punishment with a finite one.

We do penance here on earth for the sins we have committed. If we are still not purified, if we still deserve temporal punishments, by the time we die, we will spend some length of time in Purgatory -- even unto the end of the world.

And I saw a great white throne, and one sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and heaven fled away, and there was no place found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne, and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works. And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire.

"Hell" here (Hades) refers to Purgatory. The "pool of fire" is the Hell of the damned. Thus their purgation will be accelerated as the end of the world approaches, so that everyone will be ready for Judgement Day.

 

[Edial]

No not exactly. Temporal punishment is the result of sin. Its the temporal effect that is left over from committing a sin. The consequence if you will.

Christ said that he came to fulfill the law, not to abrogate it. That every penny of the sin debt must be paid. (Matt 5:26)

For a hypothetical example; one may commit fornication and suffer a disease as a result. Though they may repent with sincere contrition of heart or even imperfect contrition and by choosing to do what is right, receive absolution from one of Gods Priests who have that faculty, and change their ways, amend their lives and be resolved by God, the disease they retain would be the temporal effect of their sin.


Again not exactly, as explained above, temporal effects are the consequences of a sin that may very well be forgiven, but not every penny of its debt is yet repaid. If we leave this life with those debts, they may or may not prevent us from heaven. That is up to God to determine if the last penny is paid or not. But our inherent concupiscence can preclude us from entering heaven because of the effect it has on our disposition. We cannot enter heaven with a proclivity to sin. If we have not cooperated fully with grace then we will not be ready. That does not mean we have not chosen God. In that situation God, in his Mercy, provides for a mean of purification so that we may be admitted to full union with him. This provision is what we call purgation. Anyone with the correct understanding would be unable to be to be afraid of such purification because the goal would outweigh it. Just as having a wound dressed or a tooth fixed would. There may be a twinge in the process but the result is being fully healed.



You asked for a better definition of the stain of sin. Why ask if your not interested in the background when it is given to you?

Lets look at the Catechism again which may help to understand what "temporal" means:

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain. [Part of attaining that complete purification would be repaying every penny. For example, enduring or making amends for the temporal effect of the sin committed.]

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the "old man" and to put on the "new man."

For another hypothetical practical example; Lets say someone commits adultery and their spouse cannot forgive and commits the sin of divorce. Part of that pain for the adulterer is that abandonment and can even be to be liable for support of children they suffer separation from. They repent, are sincerely sorry, amend their whole lives and are redeemed by the blood of Jesus, yet the consequence of their sin remains and if they are to be completely redeemed they must remain responsible and repay as Jesus said; every last cent.

I understand it much better. Makes sense.

This however, does not make sense to me.
You quote "every last penny" must be paid quoting ...

MT 5:25 "Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

OK. This text certainly could refer to afterlife as well, since a similar scenario we see in Mt.5:25-26.

Doesn't that text however, encourage people NOT to go to prison and settle matters before one gets there?

Purgatory however, from what I see here, seems a certain sure-thing for each and every Catholic with some extremely rare exceptions.

According to that text it appears that Purgatory is the one that should be an exception and not the other way around.

Hell is the permanent absence of God. That anguish is eternal separation from God by ones willful choice. Purgatory is a removal of ones residual proclivity to sin. The sinfulness that we have prayed to be free of here on Earth.

Do you separate Hades from the Burning Lake or is hell hell in the Catholic theology?

Prior to the coming and redemption of Jesus the gates of heaven were closed. There were many who were justified who could not enter heaven. They were not in hell or heaven. They were in a place awaiting the redemption of Christ that we often describe as the Bosom of Abraham. Scripture describes Jesus going there to welcome them home.

Why weren't they in Purgatory instead?
Or did they enter Purgatory prior to going to Abraham's Bosom?
Or was there Purgatory before Christ?

Not only for that reason but because I see it as a removal of my residual inherent sinfulness that I abhor because it has separated me from God.

I do not see it as pain, any more than I would see practicing virtue that denies my sinful nature as painful. That the pursuit of holiness is painful is unrealistic, while someone who is a slave to sin might disagree. This would be a worldly view of sin and virtue. The worldly prefers the self as ones center when God tells us that he is our center and that submitting to he as our center is for our best interest.

...
Which is a fear of the flesh. Doing Gods will sometimes requires overcoming natural fear. Not all perceived pain is bad. That belief comes from a prosperity Gospel that is unbiblical.

... <clipped here for context>
Perhaps you have exercised and heard that if there is no pain there is no gain. But would you call the exertion from exercise that makes you stronger and healthier a pain to avoid? What is the result of avoiding that pain? The results are a hastened death. Sin as well, is a hastening of death of the soul.

Pain that we do by exercise is to better ourselves. The pain in Purgatory appears to be inflicted on us due to natural "causes".
But I do see what you are saying.

Yes I do. It is the fruit of sin that is painful though no one can recognize that without the graces of the Holy Spirit. The word tells us such purification can be as if by fire.

1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

We all go through many fires of sorts even here on Earth:

1 Corinthians 3:13
Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is.

We call these trials that God allows. They give our sufferings that we bear redemptive meaning.

There is no question that all of our works will go through fire and we will be with our works ...

1CO 3:10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

It appears we will be running through flames of our burning works (which were not based on our faith in Christ, but on some other reasoning).

It is the environment of Purgatory which I see as something as static, something like someone is tied up and tortured by demons (according to Matthew texts that were alluded to), something that must have constant intercession, something that is ... putting it bluntly - just too long and confining.

Christian face the judgment seat. Your works pass through fire. You are someplace like really close to your works. It is next to you. Some of the stuff start burning, (like building a hospital wing so you could brag to your buddies), some of the stuff stays as is (like helping someone in the name of Christ).
If you had some major issues in life - there will be a bonfire of your works and you will run like a rabbit through it :o .

This scenario makes a lot of sense and it is pure Bible.

But I do understand what you are saying.

Back to the Catechism: the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. [because it is allowed by the Lords to guide us to him.]

Purification, even if painful, IS Mercy. The flesh is temporal, the soul is immortal. Fear not the one who can destroy the flesh but the one who can destroy the soul. (Mat 10:28) Purgatory is a cleansing of the soul. What peope fear is a pain of flesh, never realizing the difference.

OK. Thank you.

Ed

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

Even though I was born and raised Catholic, I have always struggled with the concept of purgatory.

The scriptures that are pointed out are stretches at best. In reading scripture in context, I just don't see it.

 

[Vendetta]

I just thought of a question, so the solution is probably obvious, but I thought I'd ask anyway. If Mary was absolved of all original sin during the Immaculate Conception, before Christ's sacrifice, why couldn't Christ's redemption also be used in the same manner to allow those justified in Abraham's Bosom to enter Heaven? In other words, why did the virtuous souls in Abraham's Bosom have to wait?

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Not to be argumentative, but logically: then why does the RC sell/sold indulgences relieving people from a certain amount of time, especially when the RC does not know how long it is anyhow or how long it would be for that person?

This may have already been answered, I haven't finished reading this thread, however the length of time an indulgence refers to, such as 300 days for reading Scripture devotionally for 15 minutes, compares the indulgence to penances given in the early Church (which were much harsher than in more modern times).

In more recent years (post-Vatican II) the length of time has been eliminated because people were confusing it with a length of time in Purgatory. But there is no line between penance on earth and penance in Purgatory and anyway, "time" may be said to exist in a sense in Purgatory, more than in Heaven or Hell but not as much as on Earth, but really it is outside of time.

Also, even when indulgences were being "sold", they weren't being sold (unscrupulous individuals not withstanding) but rather given in exchange for a donation. It is not like buying a piece of clothing but more like almsgiving. Anyway, because of the abuses, that was discontinued at Trent (as far as I am aware).

Whereas the power of conferring Indulgences was granted by Christ to the Church; and she has, even in the most ancient times, used the said power, delivered unto her of God; the sacred holy Synod teaches, and enjoins, that the use of Indulgences, for the Christian people most salutary, and approved of by the authority of sacred Councils, is to be retained in the Church; and It condemns with anathema those who either assert, that they are useless; or who deny that there is in the Church the power of granting them. In granting them, however, It desires that, in accordance with the ancient and approved custom in the Church, moderation be observed; lest, by excessive facility, ecclesastical discipline be enervated. And being desirous that the abuses which have crept therein, and by occasion of which this honourable name of Indulgences is blasphemed by heretics, be amended and corrected, It ordains generally by this decree, that all evil gains for the obtaining thereof,--whence a most prolific cause of abuses amongst the Christian people has been derived,--be wholly abolished. But as regards the other abuses which have proceeded from superstition, ignorance, irreverence, or from whatsoever other source, since, by reason of the manifold corruptions in the places and provinces where the said abuses are committed, they cannot conveniently be specially prohibited; It commands all bishops, diligently to collect, each in his own church, all abuses of this nature, and to report them in the first provincial Synod; that, after having been reviewed by the opinions of the other bishops also, they may forthwith be referred to the Sovereign Roman Pontiff, by whose authority and prudence that which may be expedient for the universal Church will be ordained; that this the gift of holy Indulgences may be dispensed to all the faithful, piously, holily, and incorruptly.

Most indulgences were and are for prayers. In that sense, they are like particularly efficacious prayers because they are blessed by the Church.

 

[ChristoEtEcclesiae]

2 Machabees 12:43-46

And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.