Questions I would like to ask Catholics

[GigageiTsula]

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. First and foremost, I would like to make it clear, to my Catholic brethren, that I am not here to debate, criticize or belittle Catholicism. I'm here to learn and better understand the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism.

I have been to numerous sites to learn about the differences on my own, but I feel I'm no better off than I was before I started. I'm not sure if any sites on this subject are unbiased and fair anyway. So, after much consideration, I thought the OBOB would be the appropriate forum to ask my questions.

I hope my thread is well received and not seen as a personal attack against Catholicism, the Catholic Church or against the Catholics of the OBOB. I am not seeking to convert to Catholicism or attempting to sway anyone from the Catholic Church. I am here because I want to learn and understand the differences of belief.

And on a closing note, if I may ask, for the sake of peace, please refrain from any name-calling or unfair accusations. For example, please refrain from accusing another person of not being saved or of being a heretic. Such accusations do not promote peace, unity, or brotherly love in any way, shape or form.

I will treat everyone who participates in this thread with respect and I ask the same in return. I sincerely hope this thread doesn't turn into another free-for all Catholic bashing thread like some of the threads in the General Theology forum. Your patience with my questions would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

 

[GigageiTsula]

I hope I can word my questions without sounding judgmental or critical...

 

[Anhelyna]

AniGequoti

you said

For example, please refrain from accusing another person of not being saved or of being a heretic. Such accusations do not promote peace, unity, or brotherly love in any way, shape or form.

Please believe me when I say that here the ' h ' word is rarely used and it is God who decides whether someone is saved or not - we cannot make those judgements

Having made those points - welcome to OBOB

Now please do post your questions

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

I hope I can word my questions without sounding judgmental or critical...

Wellcome from a Son of the Spanish Inquisition ...





...lol

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

AniGequoti has always been civil in the past. Welcome.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I hope I can word my questions without sounding judgmental or critical...

Thanks for a polite introduction and for making it clear that you're not looking to disrupt or convert or make converts etc. Now ... what were your questions?

 

[Memento Mori]

how dare you come in here with your... I mean, go ahead

 

[Consiglieri]

I had to laugh...reading the thread title, then reading the OP, it reminded me of the writings of Paul....kind of ok ok, get to the point. Y'know, Paul and his long introductions. Just sayin'.

 

[Rhamiel]

peace be with you my dear sister in Christ
feel free to ask anything
all of your posts here have been polite, we know you are not a drive by poster who just flames and runes off, you have always been so respectful
God bless you sister, feel free to ask anything

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Ask away, I promise not to yell "Death to the infidel!"

 

[MoreCoffee]

Ask away, I promise not to yell "Death to the infidel!"

Unless it constitutes part of the proper answer!

 

[2WhomShallWeGo]

Originally Posted by PilgrimToChrist
Ask away, I promise not to yell "Death to the infidel!"

Unless it constitutes part of the proper answer!

And if we do kill him we promise not to eat him afterwards (whether we happen to have applesauce on hands or not)

 

[Assisi]

OBOB isn't like GT at all. I'm looking forward to hearing your questions.

 

[GigageiTsula]

Thank you, everyone, for welcoming me here. I appreciate it very much.

 

[GigageiTsula]

(1) Please explain the teaching of Purgatory. I'm asking for Scripture first and then other sources after that please. Do all Protestants reject the belief of Purgatory?

As a Protestant, I simply do not understand it. I have tried to learn about it from Catholic sources, and as usual, I'm just as confused as I was before I started. I'm not sure if I should even consult Protestant sources. Many Protestant members have posted quite a bit of information and sources disputing Purgatory in General Theology. But should I believe these sources to be truth? The simple truth is I believe in salvation by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ's atonement alone. Therefore, I believe His atonement was sufficient and there is no other need for anything else. So, please help me understand why Catholics believe in Purgatory.

 

[MoreCoffee]

(1) Please explain the teaching of Purgatory. I'm asking for Scripture first and then other sources after that please. Do all Protestants reject the belief of Purgatory?

As a Protestant, I simply do not understand it. I have tried to learn about it from Catholic sources, and as usual, I'm just as confused as I was before I started. I'm not sure if I should even consult Protestant sources. Many Protestant members have posted quite a bit of information and sources disputing Purgatory in General Theology. But should I believe these sources to be truth? The simple truth is I believe in salvation by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ's atonement alone. Therefore, I believe His atonement was sufficient and there is no other need for anything else. So, please help me understand why Catholics believe in Purgatory.

Scripture first:

1. Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 - deal with payment for sins after death, the "prison" mentioned is seen as analogous to purgatory.
2. Matt. 5:48 - is a call to christians to be perfect with the same kind of perfection that God possesses (naturally enough this perfection in human beings is limited to what is possible for humans). Since few people attain perfection in this life it seems that some other stage setting is required for the vast majority who are called to achieve perfection (with the help of God's grace). Catholics see this as a process that starts in this life and continues in the next until perfection is achieved. Catholics do not have a formal "de fide" teaching about how long such a transition would take, it is therefore possible that it could be instantaneous (which I think is close to what Protestants believe happens to a saved sinner upon his/her being called home to God).
3. Matt. 12:32 - speaks of forgiveness in this life and the next. Naturally this implies something about the possibility of forgiveness for unconfessed and unrepented sin in the next life. Again this has some kind of relationship with purgatory.
4. Luke 12:47-48 & Luke 16:19-31 - These two parables also imply that something happens after death and before entry into the presence of God. In the first it is beatings in the second it is a plea for mercy on family. Both cases point to themes in Catholic purgatorial teaching.
5. 1 Cor. 15:29-30 - a somewhat perplexing passage about baptism for the dead (on behalf of the dead). The idea is not entirely clear but it is consistent with Catholic teaching on intercession for the dead.
6. "Almighty Lord, God of Israel, hear the prayer of the dead of Israel, of the children of those who have sinned against you and have not listened to the voice of the Lord their God; hence the disasters which dog us." Baruch 3:4 - Again prayer of/for the dead is discussed in this passage and since it is part of the Catholic canon it is (for us) inspired and sacred scripture so we take it to heart as the teaching of Christ (in the old testament).
   
7. "All then blessed the ways of the Lord, the upright judge who brings hidden things to light, and gave themselves to prayer, begging that the sin committed might be completely forgiven. Next, the valiant Judas urged the soldiers to keep themselves free from all sin, having seen with their own eyes the effects of the sin of those who had fallen; after this he took a collection from them individually, amounting to nearly two thousand drachmas, and sent it to Jerusalem to have a sacrifice for sin offered, an action altogether fine and noble, prompted by his belief in the resurrection. For had he not expected the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead, whereas if he had in view the splendid recompense reserved for those who make a pious end, the thought was holy and devout. Hence, he had this expiatory sacrifice offered for the dead, so that they might be released from their sin." 2 Maccabees 12:41-45 - in this passage (again a part of the Catholic canon of sacred scripture) intercession for the dead by the living on Earth is described.

I can cite and quote many more passages for you, but these are sufficient for now and I don't want my post to be excessively long.

Regards in Christ.

 

[Winter]

Purgatory even amongst Catholics is a vague understanding. The church admits it doesn't have all the answers about purgatory - we don't know where it is, how it is, or how long it is. It doesn't claim to have all the answers. Its a mystery even to us. But its believed based on Scriptures as MoreCoffee cited above.

 

[Etsi]

Purgatory even amongst Catholics is a vague understanding. The church admits it doesn't have all the answers about purgatory - we don't know where it is, how it is, or how long it is. It doesn't claim to have all the answers. Its a mystery even to us. But its believed based on Scriptures as MoreCoffee cited above.

Not to be argumentative, but logically: then why does the RC sell/sold indulgences relieving people from a certain amount of time, especially when the RC does not know how long it is anyhow or how long it would be for that person?

 

[benedictaoo]

(1) Please explain the teaching of Purgatory. I'm asking for Scripture first and then other sources after that please. Do all Protestants reject the belief of Purgatory?

As a Protestant, I simply do not understand it. I have tried to learn about it from Catholic sources, and as usual, I'm just as confused as I was before I started. I'm not sure if I should even consult Protestant sources. Many Protestant members have posted quite a bit of information and sources disputing Purgatory in General Theology. But should I believe these sources to be truth? The simple truth is I believe in salvation by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ's atonement alone. Therefore, I believe His atonement was sufficient and there is no other need for anything else. So, please help me understand why Catholics believe in Purgatory.

Many references to it are in the bible.

"He will not be released until the last penny is paid", etc.

First off- Purgatory is not about the sacrifice being unfinished or not good enough or what ever.

It is not about salvation at all. If you are not saved- you do not go there, you go to hell.

It's for the saved. It’s not where people can get saved.

It pertains to holiness and Christians perfection that Jesus spoke of- "Be perfect as your Father in heaven is Perfect.

The bible also says, “Nothing unclean shall enter heaven…”

So, it is about becoming what Christ redeemed us all to be, holy and perfect.

We have amply opportunity to do that here and we do it through self denial and practicing virtue… you know, the infamous “works”, we can.

Those who do achieve holiness here, we call them Saints. They go straight to heaven. A Saint is a person who is in heaven.

But for the rest of us who died before we perfected our love of God, there is purgatory.

Christ saved us from hell but did not remove our sinful nature from us. We sin and when we do sin, we may be spared eternal damnation if we look to Christ, but sin still harms us.

If you practice greed, you will be greedy.

Are greedy people in heaven?

But you repented and asked for forgiveness... but you can't help it- you are greedy still... what do you do?

You practice virtue, you practice generosity.

These are the works we do and no, it's not working our way into heaven- it is removing sin (bad vices) from us. It is making us what Christ died for us all to be.

So, the error is not about being dung covered up but transforming into something beautiful for God and actually being the holy person which is to be TRUE children of God.

Purgatory is mercy- if we do not complete the process here- we can finish it in purgatory.

Once there, we do not grow anymore in the love of God, we can no longer do works of any kind and so we must depend on the charity of those here… to pray and offer their works of mercy for us… and what ever love of God we do die with- it will be perfected there.

Meaning, all the junk will be removed “burned away” and all will be left is God’s love in us. We get rid of self interest love, lust that was never love, and human love and all we have left is God's divine love in us and when that happens, we are ready for heaven because all that is there is, God's love.

I hope that helps.

 

[GigageiTsula]

Thank you for the Scripture references, MoreCoffee. I appreciate you taking the time to share the Word of God with me.