Questions from a heathen

[Curious Atheist]

Hello,

I have a few questions I was wondering if anyone would like to discuss/debate. NOT argue, which is silly.

I am not a follower of faith and fail to see anything positive in faith, so I hope this doesn't break the rules of posting on your forum. However many of the discussions and doubt on this forum are the same arguments the scientific world use to find their own conclusions so I am very curious how you come to such contradicting conclusions. I am not trying to convert anyone or upset anybody, but I admit that I believe if you can get upset or angry because somebody disagrees with you then you must be very insecure about your faith indeed!

So my questions are:

Are you all aware of the ancient egytpian God Horus? Almost all of the stories of Jesus are EXACTLY the same as Horus, some examples are:

Born on the 25th Dec, from a virgin called miri and a father called Joeseph.
He was the only son of God.
Birth Heralded by a star in the sky, announced by angels, witnessed by shepherds.
Brought three gifts by three wise men.
No history between the ages of 12 and 30.
Baptised at 30 in a river, baptiser beheaded.

I could go on, but you get the idea that the story isn't original in any way.

Also, if Jesus only spread the word of God 2,000 years ago does this mean that everyone born prior to this went to hell? On a related note why does God reserve the right to heaven to so few people ie what about muslim born children who never hear the stories of Jesus? Are they all doomed to an eternity of hell purely because they were born to the wrong parents. Where is the morality?

If Jesus died for our sins, (the original sin caused by adam eating the forbidden apple) then why is there still sin in the world? Why did God have to be so dramatic about it, could he not in his infinite wisdom have thought of another way? (Why is Jesus white in every painting?)

If Adam and Eve were the first two humans, why is there such a huge diversity in human genetics? Especially considering the only people having children for a while would be brother and sister, which I find disturbing. (Also why do they have belly buttons in every painting).

How can it be argued that God is a loving God when he has created such a cruel world. Evolution for example is incredibly cruel, with 99% of all species now being extinct. So WHY would God create so many species just for them to die a horrible death, especially if you believe they were created for man (who has only lived to see 1%, if that).

Why do you pray? If God has a plan and a reason for everything then surely praying for anything is going directly against God's will?

If God is omniscient then how can there be free will? Isn't it also impossible to be omniscient AND omnipotent at the same time?

Why would a human need to fear hell or want heaven to be good? Surely that is just pseudo-'goodness' as it is a purely selfish act. Can't God tell the difference?

If you dismiss the big bang because it has no beginning, then who created God? If he can come out of nothing then surely that's hypocritical logic?

Why does God go to such extradinary lengths to hide any evidence of himself? If it is to allow us the free will to choose to belieive in him then why did he send Jesus to spread the word as far as he could, plus the many stories of Angels etc. Not to mention all of the people who claim God talks to them, why one and not all? Why did he allow the bible to be written if he wants people to rely purely on faith. Which also begs the question why believers are desperately looking for evidence!

I think that is enough questions for now! I would really appreciate any answers you can give without just saying it's 'faith'.

We are all atheists, you just believe in one more God than I do. After all you don't believe in the Islamic stories, or Greek etc....maybe you do believe in the Egyptian ones though!

Thank you

 

[Curious Atheist]

My apologies, I read your site rules more carefully and I shouldn't have posted because we have different beliefs, it didn't occur to me that christians would do this!
A site mod will undoubtedly remove my questions, but I don't mean any harm and I would really value the christian point of view on my what I have said. So can you please leave this until a few people have replied so I can leave you in peace?

 

[mrmccormo]

Your mention of Horus is interesting. But let's check your facts:

Horus was born of Isis, the wife of Osiris. Her husband was chopped into pieces, so Isis had to reconstruct her husband's penis and impregnate herself. Horus was not the only son of god, because there were multiple "gods", and the Egyptians did not have the same understanding of "gods" as the Jews did. They believed that gods were powerful beings, but Horus was not a king of the gods, nor did he create the world. This...isn't exactly how you describe things in your post above. The things you mentioned sound a bit contrived, to be honest. None of the things you said would be commonly agreed-upon by any book, scholar, or authority on Egyptian mythology.

However, a similarity between two things does not mean that one leads to another. There is a similarity between the boardgames Go and Mancala (they both use stones, they're played on a board, they involve mathematical calculations) but it would be historically false to say that one game led to the other.

In the same way, there are many similarities between different religions (not just Christianity and Egyptian mythology), but in order to jump to the conclusion that one influenced the other, you would have to find that in history. Can you look into history and determine that Egyptian mythology was a major participant in the religious system of ancient Judea during Jesus' time? No, you cannot. Therefore, it is historically dishonest to claim that Egyptian mythology somehow influenced Christianity. At the very least, Jewish mysticism, Roman polytheism, or some form of tribal paganism would have been a far more likely influencer on early Christianity if there was going to be an influence. It's an interesting parallel, but when you actually sit down and examine the facts, it just doesn't add up.

As far as your other questions, I would say this: several thousand years ago, God tried to speak to us through knowledge. He gave us His law, but...well...that didn't work out too well. Jesus Christ laid down His divinity to be a human being, to have a relationship with us. You have a lot of questions, and you might even get the answers you're seeking, but in the end, it's just knowledge. Knowledge about someone is not the same as a relationship with someone.

Still, "Mere Christianity" by CS Lewis and "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel are good books if you'd like concrete, rational explanations to your questions. Yet, it will only do so much. You'll either accept it or you won't, but knowledge alone isn't going to do much for you.

God bless!

 

[Hentenza]

Thread moved from Christian Apologetics to Exploring Christianity.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

So my questions are:

Are you all aware of the ancient egytpian God Horus? Almost all of the stories of Jesus are EXACTLY the same as Horus, some examples are:

Born on the 25th Dec, from a virgin called miri and a father called Joeseph.
He was the only son of God.
Birth Heralded by a star in the sky, announced by angels, witnessed by shepherds.
Brought three gifts by three wise men.
No history between the ages of 12 and 30.
Baptised at 30 in a river, baptiser beheaded.

If you have some time, you might want to read this: All About Horus: An Egyptian Copy of Christ? Response to Zeitgeist movie
And quite honestly, this page my be arguing against the fact that Horus and Christ had similarities, so you might think it's bias, but let's be real, if you read on the fact that they claim similarities, you might have been reading a bias section anyways.

And I guess it also depends on which story about Horus that you want to believe.

Also, if Jesus only spread the word of God 2,000 years ago does this mean that everyone born prior to this went to hell? On a related note why does God reserve the right to heaven to so few people ie what about muslim born children who never hear the stories of Jesus? Are they all doomed to an eternity of hell purely because they were born to the wrong parents. Where is the morality?

Christ's blood went both backwards and forwards. God set up the old law, that those who follow it would have forgiveness of their sins when Christ died, His blood went backwards and covered them and went forward and covers us.

As for why God "reserve the right to have so few people"
That's not true, He set up what He wanted us to follow, it just so happens that few people follow it.

As for the idea that Muslim born children never heard the story of Jesus, the truth is, that question is only asked if you never read the Qu'ran because Jesus is spoken of in their book, it's just an obscured view. And in fact, if you haven't read the Holy Bible, some of these people will be unfamiliar because the Qu'ran doesn't actually provide stories on all the names they through out, so one has to seek out the bible to read the stories, but if Islam never teach their kids that, it's still up to the individual to seek.

But it's also the Christian responsibility to spread the word and teach others about God.

If Jesus died for our sins, (the original sin caused by adam eating the forbidden apple) then why is there still sin in the world? Why did God have to be so dramatic about it, could he not in his infinite wisdom have thought of another way? (Why is Jesus white in every painting?)

Jesus died for our sins so that we will not receive the full consequence of sin which is eternal death. But when someone come to Christ and give their life to them, they repent of those sins and live a life of which they struggle not to sin. And yes, it is a struggle and we do sin, that's why the blood of Christ continues to cleanse us if we continue to walk in the light.

God could have thought an infinite ways but He wanted this way. Whether we question His methods or not, that's the only way He did it.

If Adam and Eve were the first two humans, why is there such a huge diversity in human genetics? Especially considering the only people having children for a while would be brother and sister, which I find disturbing. (Also why do they have belly buttons in every painting).

Because they were perfect. They were created by God and the gene pool haven't yet been polluted.

Even if you believe in evolution (and I don't), we would still have to come from two people and when they gave birth, those kids had to breed with each other and so on and so forth, the diverse of genetics sometimes is due to environmental influences in both nature and womb, that could explain some of the mutations ie like babies whose mother did drugs...etc.

How can it be argued that God is a loving God when he has created such a cruel world. Evolution for example is incredibly cruel, with 99% of all species now being extinct. So WHY would God create so many species just for them to die a horrible death, especially if you believe they were created for man (who has only lived to see 1%, if that).

First off, God didn't create a cruel world, He said "it was good" after He created it. It was sin that messed it up. What is cruel about this world? Is it because people are killed? Well, that's our fault for killing each other. Is it because the world has injustice and we claim "everyone for themselves"? Well that's our fault for not being merciful and caring.

As for Evolution being cruel, I don't believe the theory but the theory does depict a "survival of a fitness" mode, and that I can't explain. But you also have to look at death through God's eyes. Are people really dead to God? And even if they were, He knows what's going on with them.

Why do you pray? If God has a plan and a reason for everything then surely praying for anything is going directly against God's will?

It is our communication with God. And sometimes God changes His mind if things fit into His will. And also, it acknowledges that we are depending on Him and not in our selves.

If God is omniscient then how can there be free will? Isn't it also impossible to be omniscient AND omnipotent at the same time?

Why would God's omniscient stop us from having a free will? He knows what we will do, but that doesn't mean He chose what we do. We chose what we do, He just happens to know our choice.

And why would God being all knowing and all powerful be a contradiction?

Why would a human need to fear hell or want heaven to be good? Surely that is just pseudo-'goodness' as it is a purely selfish act. Can't God tell the difference?

What do you mean that human need to fear hell or want heave to be good?
God was the one who told us what hell is, which is an everlasting punishment. That description alone is fearful. As for Heaven, it's the place where God dwell, who is good, that description alone would assume a place of good. Why would it be selfish, if that's what it is. It's not our wanting Heaven to be good, it just is.

If you dismiss the big bang because it has no beginning, then who created God? If he can come out of nothing then surely that's hypocritical logic?

You're trying to fit God in a time frame and He is not in a time frame. And that's what is hard to understand. Time was created by God when He created light, before that time wasn't in existence. It's hard to wrap your head around because all we know is time. God is the beginning and end.

Why does God go to such extradinary lengths to hide any evidence of himself? If it is to allow us the free will to choose to belieive in him then why did he send Jesus to spread the word as far as he could, plus the many stories of Angels etc. Not to mention all of the people who claim God talks to them, why one and not all? Why did he allow the bible to be written if he wants people to rely purely on faith. Which also begs the question why believers are desperately looking for evidence!

If you're a believe it is because you found the evidence and you believe that Jesus is the Son of God. God didn't go to great lengths to hide evidence of Himself...on the contrary, He sent evidence to us. Many generations were privileged to see them and hear from the prophets, Jesus and the apostles, and wrote it down for us, it is us to believe it. But it's not just His word that He gave us, look around you in this world and follow your logic. You might see the world in chaos but not everything is chaotic, look at His universe, His world, His beaches, His creation, they attest to Him, our problem becomes that we theorize God out of situations when we should be putting them in it.

We are all atheists, you just believe in one more God than I do. After all you don't believe in the Islamic stories, or Greek etc....maybe you do believe in the Egyptian ones though!

Thank you

I am not an atheist, I believe there is a God.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Curious Athiest,

Down through history every culture believed that their god was the true 'God'. Most of these gods disappeared along with their believers. To my knowledge only two 'Gods' are worshipped today (in the modern world); the Judeo/Christian God of the Bible, and the God of Islam. Many believe that these two Gods are one and the same as well. It is possible that many of these ancient 'gods' were just counterfeits 'before the fact', as the demon world was well aware of God's plans from the beginning. It is also possible that God sent 'strong delusion' to them allowing them to set up their false systems of worship. In any case God chose to reveal himself to a select people only: Israel; and through Jesus Christ the rest of mankind.

 

[Curious Atheist]

Thank you for your reply, however there are more parallels that you might find interesting, including many of the miracles Jesus was said to perform. Again I should stress I am not trying to have a go at christians or be offensive nor trying to convert anyone.

Horus also:

Had 12 disciples
Was taken up a mountain by satan
Walked on water
Cast out demons
Healed the sick
Restored sight to the blind.
He "stilled the sea by his power."
Raised the dead (his father Asar, Translated into Hebrew, Asr is "El-Asar." The Romans added the sufffix "us" to indicate a male name, producing "Elasarus." Over time, the "E" was dropped and "s" became "z," producing "Lazarus" whom Jesus raised)
He was crucified
Accompanied by two theives
Buried in a tomb
Raised from the dead 3 days later
Known as the saviour of humanity, the good shepherd, the lamb of God, the bread of life, the son of man, the Word, the fisher, the winnower

Even if you disregard this evidence for one reason or another, this is just one of many stories portraying the same stories. They have been credited to various individuals over thousands of years. Not to mention the vast parallels between christianity and ancient paganism.

Perhaps not all of this is accurate and I would happily admit that as I am not an expert on egyptian mythology. The point I am making is that the story isn't original and can be found from many sources which should cast some doubt on the validity of the witness accounts in the bible. I am curious why you can so easily disregard ancient egyptian religions as myth, yet believe the same stories set much later as factual truth.

Thanks again for answering my question

 

[Curious Atheist]

If you have some time, you might want to read this: All About Horus: An Egyptian Copy of Christ? Response to Zeitgeist movie
And quite honestly, this page my be arguing against the fact that Horus and Christ had similarities, so you might think it's bias, but let's be real, if you read on the fact that they claim similarities, you might have been reading a bias section anyways.

And I guess it also depends on which story about Horus that you want to believe.



Christ's blood went both backwards and forwards. God set up the old law, that those who follow it would have forgiveness of their sins when Christ died, His blood went backwards and covered them and went forward and covers us.

As for why God "reserve the right to have so few people"
That's not true, He set up what He wanted us to follow, it just so happens that few people follow it.

As for the idea that Muslim born children never heard the story of Jesus, the truth is, that question is only asked if you never read the Qu'ran because Jesus is spoken of in their book, it's just an obscured view. And in fact, if you haven't read the Holy Bible, some of these people will be unfamiliar because the Qu'ran doesn't actually provide stories on all the names they through out, so one has to seek out the bible to read the stories, but if Islam never teach their kids that, it's still up to the individual to seek.

But it's also the Christian responsibility to spread the word and teach others about God.



Jesus died for our sins so that we will not receive the full consequence of sin which is eternal death. But when someone come to Christ and give their life to them, they repent of those sins and live a life of which they struggle not to sin. And yes, it is a struggle and we do sin, that's why the blood of Christ continues to cleanse us if we continue to walk in the light.

God could have thought an infinite ways but He wanted this way. Whether we question His methods or not, that's the only way He did it.


Because they were perfect. They were created by God and the gene pool haven't yet been polluted.

Even if you believe in evolution (and I don't), we would still have to come from two people and when they gave birth, those kids had to breed with each other and so on and so forth, the diverse of genetics sometimes is due to environmental influences in both nature and womb, that could explain some of the mutations ie like babies whose mother did drugs...etc.



First off, God didn't create a cruel world, He said "it was good" after He created it. It was sin that messed it up. What is cruel about this world? Is it because people are killed? Well, that's our fault for killing each other. Is it because the world has injustice and we claim "everyone for themselves"? Well that's our fault for not being merciful and caring.

As for Evolution being cruel, I don't believe the theory but the theory does depict a "survival of a fitness" mode, and that I can't explain. But you also have to look at death through God's eyes. Are people really dead to God? And even if they were, He knows what's going on with them.


It is our communication with God. And sometimes God changes His mind if things fit into His will. And also, it acknowledges that we are depending on Him and not in our selves.


Why would God's omniscient stop us from having a free will? He knows what we will do, but that doesn't mean He chose what we do. We chose what we do, He just happens to know our choice.

And why would God being all knowing and all powerful be a contradiction?



What do you mean that human need to fear hell or want heave to be good?
God was the one who told us what hell is, which is an everlasting punishment. That description alone is fearful. As for Heaven, it's the place where God dwell, who is good, that description alone would assume a place of good. Why would it be selfish, if that's what it is. It's not our wanting Heaven to be good, it just is.



You're trying to fit God in a time frame and He is not in a time frame. And that's what is hard to understand. Time was created by God when He created light, before that time wasn't in existence. It's hard to wrap your head around because all we know is time. God is the beginning and end.


If you're a believe it is because you found the evidence and you believe that Jesus is the Son of God. God didn't go to great lengths to hide evidence of Himself...on the contrary, He sent evidence to us. Many generations were privileged to see them and hear from the prophets, Jesus and the apostles, and wrote it down for us, it is us to believe it. But it's not just His word that He gave us, look around you in this world and follow your logic. You might see the world in chaos but not everything is chaotic, look at His universe, His world, His beaches, His creation, they attest to Him, our problem becomes that we theorize God out of situations when we should be putting them in it.


I am not an atheist, I believe there is a God.

Thanks for your thorough reply, it has helped a lot. I don't really understand this though:

"Christ's blood went both backwards and forwards. God set up the old law, that those who follow it would have forgiveness of their sins when Christ died, His blood went backwards and covered them and went forward and covers us"

Do you mean it in the 'timeless' sense again? The part that confuses me is 'where' the people without any knowledge of God (or the rules, sin etc) would be before Jesus saved them? Could they have spent thousands of years in hell first?

You misunderstood my point regarding heaven and hell though so I will try and reiterate. What I meant is that from an outsiders perspective it seems that you follow the word of God in order to spend eternity with him in the afterlife. I have heard many Christians question whether you can infact be good or loving without God etc. So from my point of view you aren't acting in an altruistic way if the only reason you act a certain way is to get a reward later on, or because of a fear of punishment. It seems far less moral than to be good because you genuinely care about humanity and are genuinely kind at heart. Surely a moral God would prefer the latter, or does he reward those that try to be good regardless?

You also completely misunderstand evolution. Evolution does not in any way imply we came from only two people, the bare minimum physically possible to explain the diversity in mankind would be 10,000. Genetic evidence backs this up. Animals do not evolve due to a sudden mutation as you describe, evolution depends on the tiny difference between siblings. IE if you breed a litter of dogs they will vary in size etc. In the natural environment it could be that being larger gives the animal a better chance of success, one example could be that it gives it an advantage when competing for a mate. So over many many generations the overall population will become larger. Extend this over millions of years and a series of millions of tiny changes and that is how one species can develop in to another. What you need to remember is that evolution is blind of the future, we didn't evolve on purpose with any guided direction it was completely random.

I won't ramble on about evolution any more, but it is proven scientific fact backed up with genetic and a plethora of fossil evidence. Is it mere coincedence you can form a genetic family tree showing which animals we share genes with? The only way you can deny it is to be ignorant of it.

You cannot be omnipotent and omniscient, how can you already know what's going to happen yet still have the power to change it? They directly contradict each other.

Thanks, sorry if my comments offend you.

 

[mrmccormo]

OP, I hear what you are saying. I also see the parallels.

But if you are interested in facts, then you are missing a MASSIVE FACT: where is the fact that Egyptian mythology influenced Christianity? You are missing a piece of history. I can see similarities between italian pasta and chinese lo mein, but it does not mean that lo mein invented pasta or vice versa.

The "facts" you presented about Egyptian mythology are not "facts" but rather are one possible aspect of Egyptian mythology. Many historians consider the "facts" you presented to be a completely false description of Egyptian mythology. So, your entire argument of parallels is based on a minority, controversial, unproven, unverified set of "facts". If you are trying to be rational and logical, then you are choosing the most irrational and illogical viewpoint on the history of Egyptian myth.

You see the similarities between Egyptian mythology and Christanity. It's fine to see similarities. But if you see similarities, then that's all you'll have. Do you draw the conclusion that Egyptian mythology influenced Christianity? If so, then you need to point to history to where this occured. THAT is the missing piece of the puzzle. The similarities you bring up are nothing new. You learned them from somewhere, and that's fine. However, the people who taught you these similarities are not historians nor are they giving you an honest view of history.

In response to your question "why can you so easily disregard ancient Egyptian religions as myth, yet believe the same stores set much later as factual truth?":

For starters, we know that Jesus Christ was a historical person in a historical place during a historical time period. We can accurately trace Christianity 2,000 years all the way back to the beginning. On the other hand, I cannot point to someone in history who was
"Horus" who had one eye as the moon and one eye as the sun, nor can I point to the historical occassion when Horus' mother, Isis, resurrected Osiris' penis so that she could have a baby. Surely, as a person of logic, you can appreciate that it is more reasonable to trust in something that has a historical foundation than to trust in something that has no historical foundation.

Another reason is a practical one: there are no followers of the original Egyptian religions (although pieces of it are mixed into various different religions). So, how could I even come to the knowledge of the Egyptian religion when no one has practiced it for hundred - if not thousands - of years?

Lastly (and the biggest reason), you have an assumption that I chose Christianity in a lineup. You have a mentality that I examined every single religion and then I came to Christianity due to a logical progression of thought. I did not come to Christianity this way. I had supernatural experiences that led me to believe in Jesus Christ. Therefore, the basis of my faith is not on something factual or rational. Rather, it is based on something spiritual. I know that this probably doesn't satisfy your question, but it would be a false assumption to think that I'm investigating all of the various religions and I landed on Christianity because it makes the most sense.

Good luck in your journey and God bless you!

 

[Curious Atheist]

Curious Athiest,

Down through history every culture believed that their god was the true 'God'. Most of these gods disappeared along with their believers. To my knowledge only two 'Gods' are worshipped today (in the modern world); the Judeo/Christian God of the Bible, and the God of Islam. Many believe that these two Gods are one and the same as well. It is possible that many of these ancient 'gods' were just counterfeits 'before the fact', as the demon world was well aware of God's plans from the beginning. It is also possible that God sent 'strong delusion' to them allowing them to set up their false systems of worship. In any case God chose to reveal himself to a select people only: Israel; and through Jesus Christ the rest of mankind.

You are making my point for me, peoples religious beliefs are only based on who their parents are and what year they were born. Would it be fair, and fair to say that if you were born in ancient Greek times you wouldn't believe in only one God? In which case you would have been tricked by demons and go to hell for eternity? Why would God reveal his plan to demons, that makes no sense at all. Why does God value our right to not believe in him so much, but not to those who lived in the time of Jesus Christ. Why were they so special?
I understand you probably just accept it as part of the mystery of God and part of his plan. I just can't over how unfair it would be for billions to go to hell purely for not believing in a God that makes it logically impossible to believe in. It just doesn't make sense he would not only leave no evidence but also plant so much evidence to give a much more likely explanation...

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Thanks for your thorough reply, it has helped a lot. I don't really understand this though:

"Christ's blood went both backwards and forwards. God set up the old law, that those who follow it would have forgiveness of their sins when Christ died, His blood went backwards and covered them and went forward and covers us"

Do you mean it in the 'timeless' sense again? The part that confuses me is 'where' the people without any knowledge of God (or the rules, sin etc) would be before Jesus saved them? Could they have spent thousands of years in hell first?

God set up a law that people were to follow and be forgiven of sin. When they sacrificed the animals (or shall I say when the priest sacrifice the animals for them) it was their faith of what God have asked them to do that forgave them. It was not necessarily the blood of bulls and goats. When Christ died on earth, He was the lamb that was killed (the perfect lamb) killed for the sins of us all. His blood cleansed all those going back from the beginning and it goes forward to the end, covering all those who were obedient in doing God's will.

You misunderstood my point regarding heaven and hell though so I will try and reiterate. What I meant is that from an outsiders perspective it seems that you follow the word of God in order to spend eternity with him in the afterlife. I have heard many Christians question whether you can infact be good or loving without God etc. So from my point of view you aren't acting in an altruistic way if the only reason you act a certain way is to get a reward later on, or because of a fear of punishment. It seems far less moral than to be good because you genuinely care about humanity and are genuinely kind at heart. Surely a moral God would prefer the latter, or does he reward those that try to be good regardless?

That's a promise God has given us. We didn't make up that promise, we didn't say we'll only follow God because He's going to let us go to heaven, He said that if you follow Me, you'll receive the gift of eternal life. Christ is life, it just so happens that when we follow Him we receive that gift. God gave us a lot of promises as well while we're on this earth...some are:
-He promise to meet our needs
-He promise a peace that surpasses all understanding
-He promise us the forgiveness of our sins
-He promise us eternal life,
We didn't ask for those promises He just gave it to us. Same when He gave the children of Israel the promise land, they didn't ask for it, He just gave it to them.

You also completely misunderstand evolution. Evolution does not in any way imply we came from only two people, the bare minimum physically possible to explain the diversity in mankind would be 10,000. Genetic evidence backs this up.

I've studied genetics and I have no idea how you came up with this one, but then again, it probably is some newer type of evolution and I've been out of school for 4 years now...

But if you actually think about it....it all starts with two people/creatures/whatever who are reproductively compatible that starts it off, genetics does the rest.

Animals do not evolve due to a sudden mutation as you describe, evolution depends on the tiny difference between siblings. IE if you breed a litter of dogs they will vary in size etc. In the natural environment it could be that being larger gives the animal a better chance of success, one example could be that it gives it an advantage when competing for a mate. So over many many generations the overall population will become larger. Extend this over millions of years and a series of millions of tiny changes and that is how one species can develop in to another. What you need to remember is that evolution is blind of the future, we didn't evolve on purpose with any guided direction it was completely random.

You're not describing 10,000 of creatures needed to produce mankind, all you have to do is a punnet square to know that you can get different of varieties of people with only two individuals. Genetics is more complex then that. To say that 10,000 different creatures need to be mating to get mankind is weird....but between two individuals you might have 10,000 genetic differences.

As for your theory that we are created randomly, yeah that's what the evolutionist teach, but I already told you, I don't believe in evolution.

I won't ramble on about evolution any more, but it is proven scientific fact backed up with genetic and a plethora of fossil evidence. Is it mere coincedence you can form a genetic family tree showing which animals we share genes with? The only way you can deny it is to be ignorant of it.

I've studied it and it depends on the genetic tree you're speaking of. We can all say this or that, but if the claim is true that we're missing the "missing species" that connect from one creature to another, I'm not so sure how helpful a genetic tree would be if we're missing the connective genetics.

You cannot be omnipotent and omniscient, how can you already know what's going to happen yet still have the power to change it? They directly contradict each other.

Wouldn't the fact that you did change it be part of the "all knowing"? That's not a contradiction. What would be a contradiction is having an all knowing and know-nothing God or having all power and no power, those are contradicting, but having an all knowing Being that has all power is not a contradiction.

 

[Curious Atheist]

OP, I hear what you are saying. I also see the parallels.

But if you are interested in facts, then you are missing a MASSIVE FACT: where is the fact that Egyptian mythology influenced Christianity? You are missing a piece of history. I can see similarities between italian pasta and chinese lo mein, but it does not mean that lo mein invented pasta or vice versa.

The "facts" you presented about Egyptian mythology are not "facts" but rather are one possible aspect of Egyptian mythology. Many historians consider the "facts" you presented to be a completely false description of Egyptian mythology. So, your entire argument of parallels is based on a minority, controversial, unproven, unverified set of "facts". If you are trying to be rational and logical, then you are choosing the most irrational and illogical viewpoint on the history of Egyptian myth.

You see the similarities between Egyptian mythology and Christanity. It's fine to see similarities. But if you see similarities, then that's all you'll have. Do you draw the conclusion that Egyptian mythology influenced Christianity? If so, then you need to point to history to where this occured. THAT is the missing piece of the puzzle. The similarities you bring up are nothing new. You learned them from somewhere, and that's fine. However, the people who taught you these similarities are not historians nor are they giving you an honest view of history.

In response to your question "why can you so easily disregard ancient Egyptian religions as myth, yet believe the same stores set much later as factual truth?":

For starters, we know that Jesus Christ was a historical person in a historical place during a historical time period. We can accurately trace Christianity 2,000 years all the way back to the beginning. On the other hand, I cannot point to someone in history who was
"Horus" who had one eye as the moon and one eye as the sun, nor can I point to the historical occassion when Horus' mother, Isis, resurrected Osiris' penis so that she could have a baby. Surely, as a person of logic, you can appreciate that it is more reasonable to trust in something that has a historical foundation than to trust in something that has no historical foundation.

Another reason is a practical one: there are no followers of the original Egyptian religions (although pieces of it are mixed into various different religions). So, how could I even come to the knowledge of the Egyptian religion when no one has practiced it for hundred - if not thousands - of years?

Lastly (and the biggest reason), you have an assumption that I chose Christianity in a lineup. You have a mentality that I examined every single religion and then I came to Christianity due to a logical progression of thought. I did not come to Christianity this way. I had supernatural experiences that led me to believe in Jesus Christ. Therefore, the basis of my faith is not on something factual or rational. Rather, it is based on something spiritual. I know that this probably doesn't satisfy your question, but it would be a false assumption to think that I'm investigating all of the various religions and I landed on Christianity because it makes the most sense.

Good luck in your journey and God bless you!

I am not aware of any hard evidence that directly links egyptian myths to Christianity. But this isn't necessary there are far too many similarities between this and hundreds of other stories that were popular in ancient times (like paganism) for it be coincedence. Nor have I been taught any of this, I think for myself and I am just inquisitive by nature which is why I am an atheist. Your beliefs may be based on something personal, but if you were born in different country you might have attributed your experience to any number of different God's. There are literally thousands of different religions and God's, such as the biggest religion in the world you failed to have mention, Hinduism which in itself has hundreds of God's.
Jesus was more than likely a real person, that isn't really an issue for debate. But again, as I type this there are thousands of people claiming to have divine powers with many followers. There are even many claiming to be the second coming of Jesus himself, but no rational human being would believe them. Why would you without a shred of proof?

 

[Curious Atheist]

God set up a law that people were to follow and be forgiven of sin. When they sacrificed the animals (or shall I say when the priest sacrifice the animals for them) it was their faith of what God have asked them to do that forgave them. It was not necessarily the blood of bulls and goats. When Christ died on earth, He was the lamb that was killed (the perfect lamb) killed for the sins of us all. His blood cleansed all those going back from the beginning and it goes forward to the end, covering all those who were obedient in doing God's will.


That's a promise God has given us. We didn't make up that promise, we didn't say we'll only follow God because He's going to let us go to heaven, He said that if you follow Me, you'll receive the gift of eternal life. Christ is life, it just so happens that when we follow Him we receive that gift. God gave us a lot of promises as well while we're on this earth...some are:
-He promise to meet our needs
-He promise a peace that surpasses all understanding
-He promise us the forgiveness of our sins
-He promise us eternal life,
We didn't ask for those promises He just gave it to us. Same when He gave the children of Israel the promise land, they didn't ask for it, He just gave it to them.


I've studied genetics and I have no idea how you came up with this one, but then again, it probably is some newer type of evolution and I've been out of school for 4 years now...

But if you actually think about it....it all starts with two people/creatures/whatever who are reproductively compatible that starts it off, genetics does the rest.


You're not describing 10,000 of creatures needed to produce mankind, all you have to do is a punnet square to know that you can get different of varieties of people with only two individuals. Genetics is more complex then that. To say that 10,000 different creatures need to be mating to get mankind is weird....but between two individuals you might have 10,000 genetic differences.

As for your theory that we are created randomly, yeah that's what the evolutionist teach, but I already told you, I don't believe in evolution.


I've studied it and it depends on the genetic tree you're speaking of. We can all say this or that, but if the claim is true that we're missing the "missing species" that connect from one creature to another, I'm not so sure how helpful a genetic tree would be if we're missing the connective genetics.


Wouldn't the fact that you did change it be part of the "all knowing"? That's not a contradiction. What would be a contradiction is having an all knowing and know-nothing God or having all power and no power, those are contradicting, but having an all knowing Being that has all power is not a contradiction.

Thanks again for your reply. However I am not going to retort to your comments, you are entitled to your opinion and we can agree to disagree this time. I would merely suggest you read a few books on evolution if you wish to fully understand what I am doing a poor job explaining in such a small amount of time (before dismissing it). A lot of what you say about evolution is completely wrong and I don't think you have given it a fair chance like I am trying to do with religion.

Here's an odd question though, did God make me an atheist? I don't feel like I have had any choice in the matter.

Good luck to you!

 

[mrmccormo]

I am not aware of any hard evidence that directly links egyptian myths to Christianity. But this isn't necessary there are far too many similarities between this and hundreds of other stories that were popular in ancient times (like paganism) for it be coincedence. Nor have I been taught any of this, I think for myself and I am just inquisitive by nature which is why I am an atheist. Your beliefs may be based on something personal, but if you were born in different country you might have attributed your experience to any number of different God's. There are literally thousands of different religions and God's, such as the biggest religion in the world you failed to have mention, Hinduism which in itself has hundreds of God's.
Jesus was more than likely a real person, that isn't really an issue for debate. But again, as I type this there are thousands of people claiming to have divine powers with many followers. There are even many claiming to be the second coming of Jesus himself, but no rational human being would believe them. Why would you without a shred of proof?

I hate to break it to you, and I mean no offense...

But you HAVE learned this from someone. Nothing you're saying is new. With about 10 minutes of searching on Google, I could pinpoint the exact books, articles, and movies that every single one of your points comes from. Heck, in your original post you basically say "hey folks, here is some research that someone else did. I didn't do it. Someone else did". How can you honestly claim to be "thinking for yourself" when you are simply regurgitating what someone else has already investigated, already learned, already argued, already written about? If you were thinking for yourself, then you'd be doing the research on your own, not relying on someone else to do it for you.

If you are honestly saying that you didn't learn this from anyone, then how did you obtain this information? Did you dig into history yourself? Did you study the archaeological record? Did you pour over ancient texts? Did you travel back in time to witness these things? If you did not, then you learned this information from someone. If you learned this from a movie, from a book, from an article, then you learned it from someone. That's a simple fact. Surely you can understand what I am saying.

As far as the "you're a Christian because you were raised that way", just look at your life. You're not an atheist because you were raised that way, are you? You were raised a Christian. And there are plenty of atheists who were raised "atheists" yet they became Christians. There are Christians in muslim-majority and hindu-majority parts of the world. What you are spouting is a myth that you learned from other atheists. Again, and I mean no offense, if you really want to "think for yourself", your behavior is the exact opposite! You are not thinking for yourself. You are letting someone else think for you. Is that really what you want?

The problem with your insistence on "proof" is that - ultimately - you have to accept something on faith. "Proof" has become an excuse, not a doorway into the truth. People demand "proof" not because they're eager to believe, but because they want to rationalize staying exactly where they are. You were once a Christian, so you know this story: a man came to Jesus asking for Jesus to heal his child. Jesus said "Everything is possible for him who believes" and the man said "I do believe! Help me with my unbelief". Yet, when Jesus was being led to be crucified, Herod asked "show me a sign!". The Jews also made this demand. Do you want God (if you admit He exists) to help you with your unbelief, or do you want God to show you a sign? Just curious.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

You are making my point for me, peoples religious beliefs are only based on who their parents are and what year they were born. Would it be fair, and fair to say that if you were born in ancient Greek times you wouldn't believe in only one God? In which case you would have been tricked by demons and go to hell for eternity? Why would God reveal his plan to demons, that makes no sense at all. Why does God value our right to not believe in him so much, but not to those who lived in the time of Jesus Christ. Why were they so special?
I understand you probably just accept it as part of the mystery of God and part of his plan. I just can't over how unfair it would be for billions to go to hell purely for not believing in a God that makes it logically impossible to believe in. It just doesn't make sense he would not only leave no evidence but also plant so much evidence to give a much more likely explanation...

God reveals that he is arbitrary in his mercy. The unbeliever still can have a full human life, just not eternal life (that includes 'eternal life in torment').

 

[Curious Atheist]

What I meant was I am not just taking somebody elses word for it. There is no-one in my life that takes the role of a priest. I live in a Christian country and could easily have followed the crowd and believed what I was told, but I haven't. By 'think for myself' I mean literally that, not that I have single-handedly done all my own research or I am trying to say I am the original source which would be ridiculous. But my sources are varied and based on reality, not stories.

I don't need to prove God doesn't exist in order to not believe in him. The same way I don't need to try and prove Santa doesn't exist or the tooth fairy. The burden of proof falls on the shoulders of those that are making huge claims against all rationality/logic and the overwhelming evidence that proves you are wrong.

Your point merely backs up my original one

"There are Christians in muslim-majority and hindu-majority parts of the world"

Different countries have overwhelming majorities of certain religions, doesn't that tell you something? Americans are mostly christian, Indians Hindu, Iraqis muslim etc. Those that aren't are the miniority, and it is silly to argue that they have an equal chance of being Christian when the evidence clearly shows they do not. Especially when you put time into the equation...

Oh and I wasn't raised Christian, my parents let me make up my own mind so I have gone through life rationalising the various options. I am not close-minded and readily change my mind if new evidence presents itself. That I think is the difference between you and I. I see religion not as something spiritual, I see religion as a failed science. Before modern science humanity was ignorant of where we came from etc so they came up with the best theory they could. For one reason or another people find it difficult to leave religion behind when new evidence presents itself, and yes I have studied the psychology behind it which explains a lot.


I don't mean this to be as rude as it sounds, but I find it ironic your main argument is that I am just taking somebody else's word for it when that is exactly what religion preaches. Don't you value your faith over anything else? Isn't faith a synonym for 'no evidence' also known as 'superstition'?

"People demand "proof" not because they're eager to believe, but because they want to rationalize staying exactly where they are"

This is the complete opposite of science!! Science is about moving forward, without it you would be living in the dark ages! The only way to move forward is to admit when a theory is wrong and embrace the truth that's infront of your eyes. Wishful thinking by religious individuals has a lot to answer for. Just look at what the AID's problem in Afica and tell me who is to blame for preaching against condoms.

One other point, did jesus not say 'a camel has more chance of passing through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to make it into the kingdom of heaven'? (I don't know the exact quote). So why isn't more good being done? If you believe in heaven why don't you celebrate when someone dies, why don't you kill yourselves?

I have gone off track and a bit offensive I fear, my apologies.

 

[Curious Atheist]

God reveals that he is arbitrary in his mercy. The unbeliever still can have a full human life, just not eternal life. If someone doesn't know or care about God and the salvation of the chosen, what difference does it make. If you don't want to join the Boy Scouts don't complain about not going on the campout.

It bothers me because whether I believe in God or not religion has a huge influence in the world. Science is held back, money wasted, wars started and inhuman hatred perpetrated all in the name of God. If nothing else I just want to understand what gives people their faith.

To use your own logic, which is effectively 'if you don't believe you might not go to heaven, so you may as well believe'. What if you are wrong? What if you chose the wrong God(s)? You have wasted much of the only life you will ever have, which is a shame. Or worse if you have angered the wrong God then you will go to hell, surely. There is nothing anyone has said that couldn't be used to argue the existence of the flying spaghetti monster.

I believe if this universe was created by a deity he would be intelligent and powerful beyond measure, the bible would be perfect and we would have answers. The world around us is incredible and if it was created then it was surely created by a person who would value those that value it. What I mean is, if you are right in saying there is a loving God then perhaps he would value those that have tried to understand his creation, not devalue what we have by dismissing the facts...which surely he put there. It would be a cruel God indeed to on purposefully misguide us with false evidence about evolution, or a weak God that couldn't stop Satan from doing so if that is what you believe.
Not to mention the terrible things God is said to have done in the bible which is another matter entirely. The fact is he is depicted as a cruel, selfish murderous and immoral God, one I wouldn't worship even if he presented himself in the flesh.

If you belieive in science then there is only one thing to believe, Christianity can be interpreted in any number of ways, hence the thousands of different sects and churches. Can you even agree with each other if there is a hell? If so, why not. What is lacking from the bible that creates such contradicting views I wonder.

 

[lesliedellow]

Hello,
Are you all aware of the ancient egytpian God Horus? Almost all of the stories of Jesus are EXACTLY the same as Horus, some examples are:

Born on the 25th Dec, from a virgin called miri and a father called Joeseph.
He was the only son of God.
Birth Heralded by a star in the sky, announced by angels, witnessed by shepherds.
Brought three gifts by three wise men.
No history between the ages of 12 and 30.
Baptised at 30 in a river, baptiser beheaded.

I could go on, but you get the idea that the story isn't original in any way.

I have lost count of the number of times I have heard this one. It is nonsense, and its origin can be traced back to an English poet named Gerald Massey at the end of the nineteenth century. For a start, the Egyptians didn't use the Roman calendar, so he can hardly have been born on 25 December. Second, he was not born of a virgin; he was the son of Isis and Osiris. There are variations on the story, but basically Isis became pregnant by Osiris, after Isis had stitched back together Osiris' dismembered body after another god had murdered him. Apart from there being no record of his life between the ages of 12 and 30 the rest is just fiction, and occurs nowhere in his myth. If you don't believe me, I suggest you consult a website which has a genuine interest in Egyptian religion. I suppose you got this rubbish from Zeitgeist or an atheist website.

If Adam and Eve were the first two humans, why is there such a huge diversity in human genetics? Especially considering the only people having children for a while would be brother and sister, which I find disturbing. (Also why do they have belly buttons in every painting).

Not all Christians are creationists; in fact, outside of America, most aren't. There is a whole roll call of people who manage to be both evolutionary biologists and Christians (Francis Collins, Francisco Ayala, Ken Miller, Martin Nowak, Sam Berry, Dennis Alexander, Joan Roughgarden.....)

How can it be argued that God is a loving God when he has created such a cruel world. Evolution for example is incredibly cruel, with 99% of all species now being extinct. So WHY would God create so many species just for them to die a horrible death, especially if you believe they were created for man (who has only lived to see 1%, if that).

Species become extinct. They don't die any kind of death - horrible or otherwise.

Why do you pray? If God has a plan and a reason for everything then surely praying for anything is going directly against God's will?

Because Christians have a divine injunction to pray. How that fits into God's plan is for him to worry about.

[If God is omniscient then how can there be free will?

Depending upon how you define free will there might not be. If it simply means the ability to act without external constraint beyond what circumstances impose, then it is compatible with divine omniscience, because God is the creator of both you and the circumstances. Those two things together allow him to foresee every moment of your life.

Isn't it also impossible to be omniscient AND omnipotent at the same time?

No.

If you dismiss the big bang because it has no beginning, then who created God? If he can come out of nothing then surely that's hypocritical logic?

You are confusing Christianity with creationism again.

We are all atheists, you just believe in one more God than I do. After all you don't believe in the Islamic stories, or Greek etc....maybe you do believe in the Egyptian ones though!

That really is the oldest one in the book.

Thank you[/quote]

 

[OldWiseGuy]

What I meant was I am not just taking somebody elses word for it. There is no-one in my life that takes the role of a priest. I live in a Christian country and could easily have followed the crowd and believed what I was told, but I haven't. By 'think for myself' I mean literally that, not that I have single-handedly done all my own research or I am trying to say I am the original source which would be ridiculous. But my sources are varied and based on reality, not stories.

I don't need to prove God doesn't exist in order to not believe in him. The same way I don't need to try and prove Santa doesn't exist or the tooth fairy. The burden of proof falls on the shoulders of those that are making huge claims against all rationality/logic and the overwhelming evidence that proves you are wrong.

Your point merely backs up my original one

"There are Christians in muslim-majority and hindu-majority parts of the world"

Different countries have overwhelming majorities of certain religions, doesn't that tell you something? Americans are mostly christian, Indians Hindu, Iraqis muslim etc. Those that aren't are the miniority, and it is silly to argue that they have an equal chance of being Christian when the evidence clearly shows they do not. Especially when you put time into the equation...

Oh and I wasn't raised Christian, my parents let me make up my own mind so I have gone through life rationalising the various options. I am not close-minded and readily change my mind if new evidence presents itself. That I think is the difference between you and I. I see religion not as something spiritual, I see religion as a failed science. Before modern science humanity was ignorant of where we came from etc so they came up with the best theory they could. For one reason or another people find it difficult to leave religion behind when new evidence presents itself, and yes I have studied the psychology behind it which explains a lot.


I don't mean this to be as rude as it sounds, but I find it ironic your main argument is that I am just taking somebody else's word for it when that is exactly what religion preaches. Don't you value your faith over anything else? Isn't faith a synonym for 'no evidence' also known as 'superstition'?

"People demand "proof" not because they're eager to believe, but because they want to rationalize staying exactly where they are"

This is the complete opposite of science!! Science is about moving forward, without it you would be living in the dark ages! The only way to move forward is to admit when a theory is wrong and embrace the truth that's infront of your eyes. Wishful thinking by religious individuals has a lot to answer for. Just look at what the AID's problem in Afica and tell me who is to blame for preaching against condoms.

One other point, did jesus not say 'a camel has more chance of passing through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to make it into the kingdom of heaven'? (I don't know the exact quote). So why isn't more good being done? If you believe in heaven why don't you celebrate when someone dies, why don't you kill yourselves?

I have gone off track and a bit offensive I fear, my apologies.

Religion of any kind is a spiritual activity, not a scientific one. Business science, as taught in the business schools of the world, insists that financial success comes through borrowing capital and remaining in debt through the business loan or the selling of stock; using OPM, 'other people's money'. God's way is just the opposite, and directed for the benefit of everyone, not just the business owner. The economic pickle we're in would not have happened if sound financial principles were followed. Doing the right thing as a matter of principle is what true Christianity is all about. Don't mistake nominal Christianity for true Christianity (there's a lot of that going around).

 

[elopez]

Are you all aware of the ancient egytpian God Horus? Almost all of the stories of Jesus are EXACTLY the same as Horus, some examples are.

Yet a better question for you. Are you aware that this 'similarities' are actually all false, and the website you got this from is pure anti-religious propaganda? Have you ever seen the Zeitgeist movie? Yeah, it's been debunked. Just another conspiracy theory.

Also, if Jesus only spread the word of God 2,000 years ago does this mean that everyone born prior to this went to hell? On a related note why does God reserve the right to heaven to so few people ie what about muslim born children who never hear the stories of Jesus? Are they all doomed to an eternity of hell purely because they were born to the wrong parents. Where is the morality?

No, people who are completely ignorant of Scripture do not experience hell. They are not held to the law and thus cannot sin because they do not know what sin or the law is.

What do you mean Muslims who never hear the stories of Jesus? Muslims believe Jesus existed and was a prophet, not the Son of God as Christians do. It is for that reason that Muslims are more than likely aware of the stories of Christ as related to Christianity. And no, if one experiences hell it would not simply be because of being born to the wrong parents but because of sin.

If Jesus died for our sins, (the original sin caused by adam eating the forbidden apple) then why is there still sin in the world? Why did God have to be so dramatic about it, could he not in his infinite wisdom have thought of another way? (Why is Jesus white in every painting?)

Jesus didn't die to magically keep us from sinning 100% of the time. He died to make it possible for humanity to accept his death and resurrection as payment and so we could begin to sin less.

I'm sure God conceived of many ways to which avail man from sin, but being perfect in wisdom perhaps He saw this as the most efficient. Jesus dies so we could possibly live, and without his death there wouldn't have even been a shot.

If Adam and Eve were the first two humans, why is there such a huge diversity in human genetics? Especially considering the only people having children for a while would be brother and sister, which I find disturbing. (Also why do they have belly buttons in every painting).

I guess that may be true under the assumption of a YEC view, but under the TE which is the view I take there are many individuals in each ancestral population of humans and pre - humans. A&E were just the first two humans endowed with the soul.

How can it be argued that God is a loving God when he has created such a cruel world. Evolution for example is incredibly cruel, with 99% of all species now being extinct. So WHY would God create so many species just for them to die a horrible death, especially if you believe they were created for man (who has only lived to see 1%, if that).

God didn't create a cruel world. God's creation was deemed "very good." It was man who corrupted creation and continues to do so. Evolution is only 'cruel' because we as moral being comprehend such a concept of 'cruelty' and then call something we percieve in nature such. Nature is not inherently 'cruel' as morality is irrelevant to nature. Through death there is life, and surviving as far as I can tell is what nature is most concerned with.

Why do you pray? If God has a plan and a reason for everything then surely praying for anything is going directly against God's will?

I pray for a few different reasons. One of which is just because it brings me peace and clarity. And no, we are actually to pray in accordance with God's will.

If God is omniscient then how can there be free will? Isn't it also impossible to be omniscient AND omnipotent at the same time?

This is a popular one and has the same mistake whoever asks it. Free will means free from coercion, so as God's foreknowledge does not cause us to act we are free and act of our own will. This is known as compatibilism which is the view that free will and determinism (foreknowledge) co - exist.

Why would a human need to fear hell or want heaven to be good? Surely that is just pseudo-'goodness' as it is a purely selfish act. Can't God tell the difference?

We don't need to fear hell but hell is naturally frightful, wouldn't you say? And yes, such a difference to me is known as contrition and attrition.

If you dismiss the big bang because it has no beginning, then who created God? If he can come out of nothing then surely that's hypocritical logic?

Are you saying according the Big Bang theory there is no beginning to the universe? The Big Bang posits a beginning as it states the universe is expanding. Based on that misunderstanding I actually don't understand this question.