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That was my answer to a poster's specific question. I have other reasons. Please believe me that I have problems with the Bible. I'm not the only one who does, so that shouldn't surprise you.So why are you debating irrevelent "errors" in the bible, when your real objection with Christianity is the much more valid one that Christians don't show the fruit promised? Now that is a legitimate reason for rejecting the faith, and cries by the church that "we can't be expected to live up the promise" are a cop-out. The early church grew very quickly precisely because they did live up the promise and cause people to think "I need to be part of that", as does the rapidly growing church in much of the persecuted and 3rd world.
The problem with your problems with the bible is that they are objecting to something the bible isn't supposed to be in first place - what you have rejected is a manufactured idea of what the bible "ought to be", not what God created it to be, nor what Christianity has historically understood it to be. Not manufactured by you, I hasten to add, but one manufactured as a reaction against modernism that ironically accepts modernist terms. You've accepted a view of the bible invented by some 19th & 20th century Christians, and then rejected that invention.That was my answer to a poster's specific question. I have other reasons. Please believe me that I have problems with the Bible. I'm not the only one who does, so that shouldn't surprise you.
Dear MrDave, you have strong faith and conviction that I once had, too. At this time I probably wish I had the same as you do. Having strong faith makes some things in your life somewhat easier. I mean, you know who you are, what's your purpose in life, where you're going.Dear Friend:
This thread is becoming too long with too many responses to keep track of what is being said, so I will end my responses with the following thoughts.
As for your grandparents, I do not know what opportunities they had to "believe", and you don't either. Regardless of where they lived and what religion was the predominant religion in there area, I do know that since God will be their judge, and He is not willing that they should perish, God provided enough "spiritual light" in their lives and circumstances so that when they stood before God, they either had what God required to allow them into His heaven, or they were "without excuse" if they fell "short of the glory of God."
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is (God, inserted by me), and that he(God, inserted by me) is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
I Chronicles 28:9 ….for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
I also know you will die someday, and I belive you also will be judged the same way as your grandparents. Wouldn't it be a shame if your grandparents, in spite of their circumstances, actually found "saving grace" in Christ and you don't.
Regardless of your doubts and skepticism and poor examples of Christian living(if these people are even Christian at all) and what ever else is causing you not to believe, etc. etc. God has provided more then enough for you to find Him, God is not going to reveal Himself according to your desires because even if He wrote across the sky for you to belive, you would find some way to doubt it.
There are portions of the Bible I do not understand, portions I do not like (Mark Twain once said, "it's not the parts I don't understand that scare me, it's the parts I DO UNDERSTAND that scare me."), but regardless I believe even when I don't understand.
God answers this prayer, "Lord I believe, help thou my unbelief". God never promised to answer this prayer, "Lord, I don't believe, convince me.".
I do not believe for a moment you were ever a true Christian, regardless of anything you have said, I do believe you are allowing trival things to confuse you and cause doubt. YOu have made yourself your own god and you be your own god, all you have to do is figure out how not to die and face the TRUE GOD of all creation.
YOUR DECISION'S WILL DETERMINE YOUR ETERNAL DESTINY........
Comparing bad quality of paper (objective problem outside my control) to inconsistencies and errors in the text is stretching way too much, IMO. Low-quality paper may prevent me to read some of the letters/words and thus, partially or totally miss the meaning (especially if it's a Hebrew text with no vowels or Greek with no spaces between the words) of the text that cannot be read. In case of inconsistencies/errors, I do succeed to obtain the meaning of the words, and trrough that, to see the message that the text's human authors are trying to convey to me. However, after I have understood the meaning (paper was good enough), I have a conflict believing what I understood (subjective problem in my mind). So, you're talking about understanding problem, I'm talking about faith problem. Those two are not the same.What you call errors aren't errors in a meaningful sense. They are limitiations in the medium - just as the imperfections in the paper it's written on are. It's the message that is carried about God, his creation, us, etc that God is trying to transmit - complaining about the paper quality would be silly.The bible could no more be 'perfect'; in the sense you are demanding and still achieve it's purpose than God could have demanded it be printed in perfect letters on perfect paper (both theretically unachievable). Such a demand is ridiculous. God chooses to work through fallible people and their limited structures and abilities; in that context it is absurd to demand that God (say) should require the author(s) of Genesis 1 & 2 to write their accounts in a scientifically accurate way than for him to require them to do so on truely perfect piece of paper (or parchment)If you choose to demand that God should have done something he did not, and could not (because it would be paradoxical) do, I guess that's your look-out though.
Nice explanation, as always. It is a way around, yes, put in nice words. However, it doesn't work with me. Why invent a very complicated explanation where you have to accept a complicated idea in order to resolve an obvious problem(inconsistency/error), when you can simply say, okay, the claims about these writings being god-inspired are wrong? It's like when you see 2+2-1+1=3, you can say 1) It was written by a maths professor and his meaning for arithmetical signs were different from the commonly accepted once. You can suppose different possible interpretations of the meaning of the signs, for example, to say that '+' actually means 'multiply'. Therefore, it's a perfectly correct equasion and we believe it was written by the professor. Or you can say, 2) It was written by a young child who made a mistake in calculation and needs to keep learning his arithmetics. You suggest me 1 whereas I prefer 2 as much more obvious and logical explanation.Reading the bible as a manual of laws to obay is missing the point, just as reading it as a textbook on science or a recipe for fruit-cake. The truth about right and wrong is something one is expected to learn about by reading the whole, reflecting on it and praying about it, seeing how it fits in the bigger picture and the Great Commandments, etc. Right and wrong cannot be properly encompased by any finite set of rules. Yes some of it is rules, but different bits are different sorts of rules - some are big picture stuff. Some are specifics for specific contexts. Much is case-law, from which drawing direct inference must be done carefully. And so forth.If you sit down and look for inconsistances you will find it, because keeping the thing literally consistant would drown out the message.
Well, I won't take your word about 19-20th centuries... I don't care who made what of what. I read the Bible, I analyze what I read according to my knowledge and understanding, I hear other people's interpretations, I see how they apply it to life, I look at my own experience with interpreting it and putting to practice and based on all that, make my conclusions. It's not as simple as, 'making it smth it's not and then rejecting it as such'. This time it's you over-simplifying things.The problem with your problems with the bible is that they are objecting to something the bible isn't supposed to be in first place - what you have rejected is a manufactured idea of what the bible "ought to be", not what God created it to be, nor what Christianity has historically understood it to be. Not manufactured by you, I hasten to add, but one manufactured as a reaction against modernism that ironically accepts modernist terms. You've accepted a view of the bible invented by some 19th & 20th century Christians, and then rejected that invention.
Yes. And?a question from me is that did you ever feel God in your life, or God working in your life? Have you ever felt His presence?
All the best to you, too.All the best,
Digit
I hope so. Most importantly for me, I've found here what I needed - people who would understand me and listen to me, share their views. I didn't say it in my first post, maybe I should have, but Christianity was almost all I had in my life. It's not anymore. It feels like starting my life over. It's not easy... I expect to loose some of my Christian friends when I profess my unbelief to them... The people here at CF are nice so they don't talk about satan deceiving me, but I'm sure I'm going to hear that a lot later, especially from behind my back...I am sure we will enjoy having you here on the forms.
I know. But I've seen enough of those efforts. They are in no comparison to the teaching of the Bible. Oftentimes it seems to me that they don't really believe in what they say the believe in. It's my opinion.But they are doing something about it. They are trying to save the souls of their family and those close to them.
Do you believe in a literal hell?However, some Christians do not believe in Eternal Fire and Brimstone, and all that regarding hell. I for one, see no reason to believe Hell is a place of Fire and Burning, and where daemons with pitch forks poke you and prod you. That reeks of Pagan influence.
We're humans, we're sinful, we're weak, we're only flesh, we're nothing compared to God and so on... What about the indwelling holy Spirit, about renewal of the mind? What about the new creature, about child of God? What about the 'saints', about the selected, the priests, the saved? What about all that other stuff the Bible and the Christians are talking about? Why is it that the Christians just live like everybody else (or worse), conform to "this secular world", are more hypocritical, self-righteous and judging than non-Christians, do very little or nothing about saving others AND at the same time claim they're different? Claim that they hold THE ABSOLUTE truth??? I expect at least some proof of that. If there's none, I doubt all of their claims...Yes.. that human factor tends to set in, and we wake up and realize that Christains are just like everyone else, prone to the same levels of corruption, ego, pride, greed, etc, when all things are said and done, we are just humans.
Okay, I've heard such doctrine before. When I was a Christian, most of the time I believed similarly. I have a big problem with it now. Why then Jesus Christ came? It seems, if such interpretation is true, that he came only to save those who will hear about him, for the others his salvation work has no effect whatsoever because they will be judged NOT according to their faith/rejection of Jesus Christ. In other words, then Jesus' gospel has very little, if any, value to most people who ever lived (will live) and did not (will not) hear the gospel. That is, his death/resurrection is just for a very few.It's not really that vague, Paul touches on this, but there is not an in dept explanation, it falls into the category of there are those that have not heard, and they will be judge by Faith and their heart, not the Law of Sin. However those that have heard and rejected, have no hope.
Thank you, really.Always a pleasure. I hope you find what will bring you joy and peace.
God Bless
Key
There are things that I can't reconcile in my mind also.Dear MrDave, you have strong faith and conviction that I once had, too. At this time I probably wish I had the same as you do. Having strong faith makes some things in your life somewhat easier. I mean, you know who you are, what's your purpose in life, where you're going.
Unfortunately, I've lost my faith and there is no way I can regain it now because I can't reconcile some issues (those mentioned and perhaps some others) in my mind. You say I made myself god or whatever, but it's my consious choice. If God or whoever/whatever else gave me my brains, why not try and use them?
You are afraid and scared of God, if I understood what you said correctly. I am not. That's why I'm not seeking how not to die and meet God. I'm asking a question now, does God exist? If yes, who and what he is? What he really wants from us? What were his purposes for this world? So, I'm openly thinking and looking around and maybe will find an answer some day that will satisfy me. I am not afraid to die because I've been trying to be honest with myself and with the information I've been receiving. If I reject Jesus Christ, then I had my own reasons to do it, I didn't do it just accidently or because somebody made me. If I am sent to a hell for that, then it is what I deserved by being honest. If I go to a heaven, then that is what I honestly deserved, too. If I cease to exist after death, then nothing of what we are talking about really matters...
Thank you very much for the time you spent on trying to carefully explain your view of the matter to me, despite the fact that I'm somtimes bitter or confused and so is this thread. You're a caring and kind person. I've read all your posts carefully and thoughtfully.
I'm afraid it is evident from what you have said throughout this thread that you are much more influenced by the factors I outlined above than you apparently realise. The bible is not a book written specificially for a modernist mindset, and all your arguments (and most of the counter arguments) treat it as though it was.Well, I won't take your word about 19-20th centuries... I don't care who made what of what. I read the Bible, I analyze what I read according to my knowledge and understanding, I hear other people's interpretations, I see how they apply it to life, I look at my own experience with interpreting it and putting to practice and based on all that, make my conclusions. It's not as simple as, 'making it smth it's not and then rejecting it as such'. This time it's you over-simplifying things.
Faith is believing things that you can't see. I agree, faith is perhaps something spiritual, and not mental. However, if I believe in something, I can't close up my mind at the same time...There are things that I can't reconcile in my mind also.
If God is truly God (ie omniscient and omnipotent), I cannot hope to ever fully understand Him!
BUT faith is a spiritual thing, not a mental one.
And a gift from God, not something I can achieve!!
The Bible itself contains claims as to its origin, quality and purpose. It's impossible to accept the Bible and ignore them.I'm afraid it is evident from what you have said throughout this thread that you are much more influenced by the factors I outlined above than you apparently realise. The bible is not a book written specificially for a modernist mindset, and all your arguments (and most of the counter arguments) treat it as though it was.
I don't know the answer. Perhaps, for the same reasons that all other religious books exist. That is, because somebody made up the ideas, recorded them, edited, developed, preserved--all over many centuries, generation after generation. People need some ideology, they can't live without one. Their mind requires explanation of things, inquires answers to their many questions. Religious books make attempts at just that. They're trying to open up a vail covering the main misteries--where this world came from, where people came from, why we live, how we should live and what's going to happen in the afterlife. So, it becomes a teaching on history, morality, spirituality.Ok, next question if I may - why do you think the Bible exists?
True.Faith is believing things that you can't see. I agree, faith is perhaps something spiritual, and not mental. However, if I believe in something, I can't close up my mind at the same time...
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