Questions for the JW's

[gort]

There's a whole lotta squirmin goin on around this thread

 

[btony]

Ahem! Nonsense! There is a great mulitude that no man can number, out of every tribe, nation, and tongue in the world, not angels. standing before the throne. If the great multitude are angels then so are the 144,000 they all come from earth. Now please respond to my post.

If, as the official watchtower website states, there are only 144,000 Christians in heaven, where did the great multitude that no man can number come from? Either both groups are angels or both groups are not!

Seems I missed this one.. but I already addressed it in my previous post..

 

[Der Alte]

Actually, the others are said to be AROUND the throne... Here, let us consider this matter.

Does being before the throne make one in heaven though? Certainly, it can. For example, in Revelation 1:4 the seven spirits are said to be “before his throne”. Yet, we note that the use of before, it often denotes simply in the sight of, or in view of, not literally in the presence of. For example, consider the following:

Galatians 1:20 And what I write to you, behold, before GodI do not lie.

Certainly the apostle was not in heaven, yet he made this statement “before God”, in the sight of God.

Acts 4:19 But answering them Peter and John said, Whether it is right before God to listen to you rather than God, you judge.

We again find, that here “before God” does not denote being in his presence, but simply in his sight. We notice within the context of Revealtion 7, heavenly dwelling is represented by two different terms. Verse 11 speaks of ones being “around the throne”, while 17 speaks of Jesus being “in the midst of the throne.”

A perfect example of scripture twisting. What is the context of the two verses you quoted? Other that the occurrence of one word before, is there any connection whatsoever between these two verses and Rev 7:9. In Act 4:19 and Gal 1:20 is there any mention of the presence of God, heaven, the throne, etc., as there is in the Rev passage? So the verses are absolutely meaningless in this discussion because there is no contextual relevance.

An objection to the great crowd being on earth is found in that they are said to worship in the temple of God. The basis for this is that Revelation speaks of God’s temple being in heaven (Rev. 11:19). Is this the templethat the great crowd is in though? We note that the location of the temple that the great crowd is in is not specified, but the temple of Revelation 11:19 is. Is there only one temple of God though? There certainly is the one in heaven, but there is also another here on earth

1 Corinthians 3:16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and the Spirit of God dwells in you?

Nothing but meaningless diversion and misdirection. Let's go look at some verses where Jesus was in the temple, maybe we can twist them too. John did not say they were the temple, but that they we in the temple. Do you know the difference? John did. And I am certain had John intended to say they were the temple, to make this passage support JW doctrine, that is what he would have said. But John said they were before the throne, IN the temple of God, and in the context of the passage, they were in the same place as the myriad of angels and the 24 elders. You do understand context do you not? Did John connect all of the people and angels repeatedly with the copulative kai and all the while mean they were in two totally different places?

In a further attempt to prove that the great crowd of Revelation 7 finds themselves in heaven, some people point to the following scripture.

Revelation 19:1 And after these things, I heard a great voice of a large multitude [great crowd -NWT] in Heaven, saying, Hallelujah! The salvation and the glory and the honor and the power of the Lord our God!

However, these ones fail to note a key thing: A no time does John ever make witness of this great multitude, but he simply hears the voice of such a group. Should we assume then that the great crowd of Revelation 7 is the same as that of the voice heard in verse 19? We can find no reason to make such a connection. Rather, we find that the voice of a single angel is said to have this very same voice!

Daniel 10:6 His body was also like the beryl, and his face looked like lightning. And his eyes were like torches of fire; and his arms and his feet in color like polished bronze; and the sound of his words were as the noise of a multitude [great crowd -GNB].

Yes, the voice described in Revelation 19 is fitting of that of a single angel, or more so, the angelic host. This is fitting, for these are the ones we find in heaven (Rev. 5:11), not the great crowd seen in Revelation 7.

Talk about out-of-context verses. You have to reach all the way back to the O.T. and a different language trying to find one out-of-context verse you can use to prove your doctrine.

Your diversion to Rev 19:1 is meaningless, John saw the great multitude in 7:9, and absolutely nothing in the context indicates he as looking at two different events in two different places!

 

[btony]

A perfect example of scripture twisting. What is the context of the two verses you quoted? Other that the occurrence of one word before, is there any connection whatsoever between these two verses and Rev 7:9. In Act 4:19 and Gal 1:20 is there any mention of the presence of God, heaven, the throne, etc., as there is in the Rev passage? So the verses are absolutely meaningless in this discussion because there is no contextual relevance.

Shows that "before" has nothing to do with location as you argue.

Nothing but meaningless diversion and misdirection. Let's go look at some verses where Jesus was in the temple, maybe we can twist them too. John did not say they were the temple, but that they we in the temple. Do you know the difference? John did. And I am certain had John intended to say they were the temple, to make this passage support JW doctrine, that is what he would have said. But John said they were before the throne, IN the temple of God, and in the context of the passage, they were in the same place as the myriad of angels and the 24 elders. You do understand context do you not? Did John connect all of the people and angels repeatedly with the copulative kai and all the while mean they were in two totally different places?

Well we've already seen that to be "before" something has nothing to do with location. And God has a temple on earth and in heaven. Being that the "come out of the tribulation" they must be alive on earth, so they must be in the throne on earth.

Talk about out-of-context verses. You have to reach all the way back to the O.T. and a different language trying to find one out-of-context verse you can use to prove your doctrine.

Your diversion to Rev 19:1 is meaningless, John saw the great multitude in 7:9, and absolutely nothing in the context indicates he as looking at two different events in two different places!

Actually, John quotes a LOT from the OT. But see, in Rev 19, John does not see anything, he hears! The text is ambiguous.

 

[Fit4Christ]

So how does one know where they stand in the 144,000 rankings?? Do JW pray to God to find that out? How does one move up or down on the scale?

 

[G4m]

What verse are you quoting from?
The 144,000 are no longer people when in heaven, they become spirit creatures. like all the others in heaven.
I'm not really sure i understand your question, angels will always be distinct from humans.

LF,

[bible]Matthew 19:30[/bible]
[bible]Mark 9:35[/bible]
[bible]Luke 13:30[/bible]

So in the end, wouldn't we all become spirit creatures?

 

[LogicalFallacy]

Hi G4m,

Matthew 19:30But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.
Mark 9:35And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.
Luke 13:30And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

So in the end, wouldn't we all become spirit creatures?

Why? none of these verses teach that! Am I missing the point?

LF,

 

[G4m]

Hi G4m,
Why? none of these verses teach that! Am I missing the point?

LF,

Yeah. Those verses teach a final equality to me.

 

[LogicalFallacy]

Yeah. Those verses teach a final equality to me.

Nay, thoses verses teach about being humble. Not all becoming angels.

LF,

 

[G4m]

Nay, thoses verses teach about being humble.

OK

Not all becoming angels.

LF,

Angels?

 

[LogicalFallacy]

OK


Angels?

You said; "so in the end, wouldn't wouldn't we all become spirit creatures"

LF,

 

[G4m]

You said; "so in the end, wouldn't wouldn't we all become spirit creatures"

LF,

OK, so the 144,000 are angels, or at least become angels?

The 144,000 are no longer people when in heaven, they become spirit creatures. like all the others in heaven.
I'm not really sure i understand your question, angels will always be distinct from humans.

 

[LogicalFallacy]

OK, so the 144,000 are angels, or at least become angels?

Well what are the created inhabitants of heaven if they are not angels?

LF,

 

[Fit4Christ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by: G4m

OK, so the 144,000 are angels, or at least become angels?

Well what are the created inhabitants of heaven if they are not angels?

LF,

So those 144,000 were humans who died and then became angels?? Or were already present in heaven??

 

[LogicalFallacy]

So those 144,000 were humans who died and then became angels??

Yes. (although they're not all in heaven yet)

Or were already present in heaven??

No they came from earth - Revelation 5:9-10.

LF,

 

[Fit4Christ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by: Fit4Christ

So those 144,000 were humans who died and then became angels??

Yes. (although they're not all in heaven yet)

OK, so how many are left? How do you know where you rank on the list? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was assuming there is some way of knowing who will and who won't be there, of those living presently I mean? Over the almost 2,000 years since this book was written, God hasn't found 144,000 saints yet?

Quote:

Or were already present in heaven??

No they came from earth - Revelation 5:9-10.

Fair enough. What about Revelation 7:5-8? These tribes no longer exist as we know it. How does a JW figure out what tribe they were from and if they'll be one of the 12,000 of that tribe?

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

Did I miss something? When we die, we become angels?

 

[Fit4Christ]

Did I miss something? When we die, we become angels?

That was my take on what LF was trying to say. Is that correct, LF?

 

[mawuvi]

That was my take on what LF was trying to say. Is that correct, LF?

I think LF is referring to the 144,000 becoming spirit creatures in heaven. Remember he mentioned earlier Matt. 5 which says the the meek would inherit the Earth. Matt 5 also talks of the pure in heart who would see God. That would mean one group (pure in heart) would see God because they are in heaven and the other group (the meek) that would not see God because they would be inherit the Earth and live in it forever

 

[btony]

It would be an error to say those resurrected to heaven are angels. They are "like the angels" according to Jesus, but not literally angels.