Questions for the JW's

[e=mv^2]

Given that there are over 6 million Jehovah's Witnesses in the world today.
Given that only 144000 will be allowed into heaven.
Given that some of the leaders / founders of the JW are now dead and could have possibly been one of those 144000 (not to mention the early christians).

If the above are true, there is less than a 2.4% chance in being one of the 144000.

How does one get to be in the 144000?
What happens to the >97.6% of the JW's that are alive today?

 

[LogicalFallacy]

Hi,

Matthew 5:5 answers your question.

LF,

 

[G4m]

Hi,

Matthew 5:5 answers your question.

LF,

Logical Fallacy,

according to Jehovah's Witnesses how is "So the last will be first, and the first will be last." interpreted? I mean, does there eventually become some equal level of existence for all people. Or do the 144,000 remain distinct for eternity?

Thanks!

 

[Mother Vashti]

Erm, why would only 144,000 be allowed into Heaven? The bible says that 144000 chaste men will wait upon the Lamb, but the heavenly number (holding the palm branches) looked like an endless sea of people

 

[Der Alte]

If, according to the teachings of the WTBS, there are only 144,00 in heaven where did this "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues," standing "before the throne," in heaven, come from?

Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

​

 

[e=mv^2]

Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

So does this mean that:

Heaven will be some place other than earth?

and...

Those that do not make it into heaven get to hang out on earth?

 

[LogicalFallacy]

Logical Fallacy,

according to Jehovah's Witnesses how is "So the last will be first, and the first will be last." interpreted? I mean, does there eventually become some equal level of existence for all people. Or do the 144,000 remain distinct for eternity?

Thanks!

What verse are you quoting from?
The 144,000 are no longer people when in heaven, they become spirit creatures. like all the others in heaven.
I'm not really sure i understand your question, angels will always be distinct from humans.

LF,

 

[LogicalFallacy]

Erm, why would only 144,000 be allowed into Heaven? The bible says that 144000 chaste men will wait upon the Lamb, but the heavenly number (holding the palm branches) looked like an endless sea of people

The "heavenly number" weren't heavenly they are the earthly representatives that have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb. This group is called the great crowd.

LF

 

[LogicalFallacy]

If, according to the teachings of the WTBS, there are only 144,00 in heaven where did this "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues," standing "before the throne," in heaven, come from?

Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne.



Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.



​

At last! a polite post that I want to answer,

JW's do not teach that there is only 144'000 in heaven.

LF,

 

[LogicalFallacy]

So does this mean that:

Heaven will be some place other than earth?

Heaven has always been a seperate realm, just because the earth is under the domain of the wicked doesn't mean it always will be.

and...

Those that do not make it into heaven get to hang out on earth?

Yes, in a paradise earth, like the one that Adam could have enjoyed if he had not sinned.

LF,

 

[Mother Vashti]

The "heavenly number" weren't heavenly they are the earthly representatives that have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb. This group is called the great crowd.

LF

Ah.

 

[blessedbe]

Logical Fallacy,


1 Thessalonians 4:17

"And we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord"

What does this mean to you LF? Is this only the 144,000 that are alive at that time? Or something else?

what do you mean that JW's don't teach that there are only 144,000 in heaven?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding here, but you teach that only 144,000 people are annointed and go to heaven to rule with Jesus, the rest are on paradise earth.

 

[LogicalFallacy]

Sorry nearly missed this!

Logical Fallacy,


1 Thessalonians 4:17

"And we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord"

What does this mean to you LF? Is this only the 144,000 that are alive at that time? Or something else?

It's the remainder of the 144'000 that are still on earth at the coming of the Lord Jesus.

what do you mean that JW's don't teach that there are only 144,000 in heaven?

Well think about it, there's more than that in heaven, you have to add all the other spirit being to than number. The 144'000 are only chosen after the rebellion of mankind, therefore are added to the already existing number in heaven.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding here, but you teach that only 144,000 people are annointed and go to heaven to rule with Jesus, the rest are on paradise earth.

Correct.

LF,

 

[Der Alte]

At last! a polite post that I want to answer,

JW's do not teach that there is only 144'000 in heaven.

LF,

No? Here is a quote from the official Watchtower website.

Why Some Do Go to Heaven

Many readers of the Bible, however, are aware of Jesus' words: "In the house of my Father there are many abodes. . . . I am going my way to prepare a place for you." (John 14:2, 3) Does this not contradict the idea of life everlasting on a paradise earth?

These teachings are not contradictory. In fact, one supports the other. To begin with, the Bible states that only a limited number of faithful Christians—namely, 144,000 of them—are raised as spirit creatures to live in heaven. Why are they given this wonderful reward? Because they make up the group that John saw in a vision who "came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years." (Revelation 14:1, 3; 20:4-6) Compared with the billions on earth, the 144,000 truly are a "little flock." (Luke 12:32) Moreover, having experienced the problems common to humankind, like Jesus they will be able to "sympathize with our weaknesses" as they supervise the rehabilitation of mankind and of the earth.—Hebrews 4:15.

Earth—Mankind's Eternal Home
. . .

​

 

[btony]

No? Here is a quote from the official Watchtower website.

Why Some Do Go to Heaven


Many readers of the Bible, however, are aware of Jesus' words: "In the house of my Father there are many abodes. . . . I am going my way to prepare a place for you." (John 14:2, 3) Does this not contradict the idea of life everlasting on a paradise earth?

These teachings are not contradictory. In fact, one supports the other. To begin with, the Bible states that onlya limited number of faithful Christians—namely, 144,000 of them—are raised as spirit creatures to live in heaven. Why are they given this wonderful reward? Because they make up the group that John saw in a vision who "came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years." (Revelation 14:1, 3; 20:4-6) Compared with the billions on earth, the 144,000 truly are a "little flock." (Luke 12:32) Moreover, having experienced the problems common to humankind, like Jesus they will be able to "sympathize with our weaknesses" as they supervise the rehabilitation of mankind and of the earth.—Hebrews 4:15.

Earth—Mankind's Eternal Home
. . .


​

ehem.. Angels?

 

[blessedbe]

Quote:
Originally Posted by: blessedbe




Logical Fallacy,


1 Thessalonians 4:17

"And we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord"

What does this mean to you LF? Is this only the 144,000 that are alive at that time? Or something else?



It's the remainder of the 144'000 that are still on earth at the coming of the Lord Jesus.

Do you know how many are left now? about 6000? maybe? and how old they are? I'll be real curious to see what happens when they are all dead......
no offense, but you are going to be really suprised.....



About the 144,000 being the only ones in heaven>>> You really threw alot of people off with that statement. Everyone knows there are angels there. The discussion is that there are more than 144,000 PEOPLE mentioned in the bible. In fact, it directly mentions a "great crowd which no one could number" before the throne, which was already described as being in heaven. Those of the great crowd are not angels.....and if they are not angels, and they are before the throne, they'd be in heaven right?

 

[Der Alte]

ehem.. Angels?

Ahem! Nonsense! There is a great mulitude that no man can number, out of every tribe, nation, and tongue in the world, not angels. standing before the throne. If the great multitude are angels then so are the 144,000 they all come from earth. Now please respond to my post.

If, as the official watchtower website states, there are only 144,000 Christians in heaven, where did the great multitude that no man can number come from? Either both groups are angels or both groups are not!

 

[True Believer]

Thw Throne is in the heavens and the Earth is it's footstool So the great crowd here on Earth are before the throne
Agape', TB

 

[Der Alte]

Nice try at twisting scriptures. Where is footstool mentioned in Revelation? I can’t seem to find it.The multitude is before the throne, along with the 24 elders, and the myriads of angels, all in the same place, and serve God day and night in His temple, not His footstool!

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb
Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

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Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne and He shall dwell among them.
​

 

[btony]

Nice try at twisting scriptures. Where is footstool mentioned in Revelation? I can’t seem to find it.The multitude is before the throne, along with the 24 elders, and the myriads of angels, all in the same place, and serve God day and night in His temple, not His footstool!

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb
Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,


​

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​

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne and He shall dwell among them.

​

Actually, the others are said to be AROUND the throne... Here, let us consider this matter.

Does being before the throne make one in heaven though? Certainly, it can. For example, in Revelation 1:4 the seven spirits are said to be “before his throne”. Yet, we note that the use of before, it often denotes simply in the sight of, or in view of, not literally in the presence of. For example, consider the following:

Galatians 1:20 And what I write to you, behold, before GodI do not lie.

Certainly the apostle was not in heaven, yet he made this statement “before God”, in the sight of God.

Acts 4:19 But answering them Peter and John said, Whether it is right before God to listen to you rather than God, you judge.

We again find, that here “before God” does not denote being in his presence, but simply in his sight. We notice within the context of Revealtion 7, heavenly dwelling is represented by two different terms. Verse 11 speaks of ones being “around the throne”, while 17 speaks of Jesus being “in the midst of the throne.”

In reality, what is said of the great crowd is fairly ambiguous. It could be taken to be of heavenly dwelling, or it could just as easily denote the worship in the sight of the throne, just as John was “before God”, being in his sight. It is only by other means that we can determine whether or not this denotes heavenly life.


The matter of the locationof the great crowd is clarified by the context. We find that these “are the ones that come out of the great tribulation”. What then does this mean?

Revelation 7:14 So right away I said to him: "My lord, you are the one that knows." And he said to me: "These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

When we consider that the tribulation takes place here on earth, we understand that for these ones to be coming out of the tribulation, they too must be on earth. Do they come out of the tribulation by means of a resurrection to heavenly life? Definitely not. Consider what is stated in the following.

Revelation 7:15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes."

Where are the ones who find this fulfilled in them? They are right here on the earth!

Revelation 21:2 I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: "Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away."

With New Jerusalem spoken of as “coming down out of heaven”, we find the scene to be earth. Here, the tent of God is with mankind and these wonderful promises are fulfilled. We thus understand that this is definitely not a resurrection to heavenly life, or some type of “rapture” as many believe in. Rather, they come out of the great tribulation by surviving through it, continuing to live in the promised conditions on earth.

The other possibility some have proposed is that this great crowd somehow dies and goes to heaven, yet this would totally defeat what is stated about them being the ones that “come out” of the tribulation. The most logical interpretation is that they survive through it, in complete harmony with them receiving the promises made to them on earth in Revelation 21.


An objection to the great crowd being on earth is found in that they are said to worship in the temple of God. The basis for this is that Revelation speaks of God’s temple being in heaven (Rev. 11:19). Is this the temple that the great crowd is in though? We note that the location of the temple that the great crowd is in is not specified, but the temple of Revelation 11:19 is. Is there only one temple of God though? There certainly is the one in heaven, but there is also another here on earth.



1 Corinthians 3:16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and the Spirit of God dwells in you?

The body of Christ (Col. 1:24) too is a temple of God. It exists right here on the earth and this is logically the temple of God that the great crowd dwells in, worshipping along side the 144,000. Therefore, in light of Revelation 7 providing a clear demonstration of the great crowd being on earth, with them coming out of the tribulation, we find no issue with this objection.


In a further attempt to prove that the great crowd of Revelation 7 finds themselves in heaven, some people point to the following scripture.

Revelation 19:1 And after these things, I heard a great voice of a large multitude [great crowd –NWT] in Heaven, saying, Hallelujah! The salvation and the glory and the honor and the power of the Lord our God!

However, these ones fail to note a key thing: A no time does John ever make witness of this great multitude, but he simply hears the voice of such a group. Should we assume then that the great crowd of Revelation 7 is the same as that of the voice heard in verse 19? We can find no reason to make such a connection. Rather, we find that the voice of a single angel is said to have this very same voice!

Daniel 10:6 His body was also like the beryl, and his face looked like lightning. And his eyes were like torches of fire; and his arms and his feet in color like polished bronze; and the sound of his words were as the noise of a multitude [great crowd –GNB].

Yes, the voice described in Revelation 19 is fitting of that of a single angel, or more so, the angelic host. This is fitting, for these are the ones we find in heaven (Rev. 5:11), not the great crowd seen in Revelation 7.