Questions for the Catholics

[Rhamiel]

wow, you have a lot of really good questions and I am so happy that some of the people here were able to give you good answers

I will try and help out with a few of them
but before we get bogged down in debates of doctrines, I just wanted to say this

I was not raised in the church, and only recently (4 years ago) came to know Christ.

I am SO happy that you have come to Christ and have accepted Him as your Lord
the difference is like night and day once you know Jesus

 

[Rhamiel]

Is the authority of the Roman Catholic Pope threatened by the authority of the Bible? Why or why not?

no, because they are two different things

it is like saying, is the authority of the Government threatened by the authority of the Constitution
one is an administrative body, the other is a collection of laws and principles

ideally one supports the other

Who is the supreme leader of the Church: Christ or the Pope?

Christ
and Christ has delegated authority to His Apostles who have passed down that authority to Bishops, this is clear in a reading of the New Testament

Does the Pope (and the Catholic church) promote a works-based or faith-based salvation?

we are saved by the grace of God, through faith, but also remember that faith without works is dead
the "faith based vs. works based" is a false dichotomy, atleast when talking about mainstream Christianity

Do all Catholic churches fall under the Roman Catholic church?

not sure what you mean by this
the First Vatican Council has ruled that the Pope has immediate jurisdiction over all of the Church

Was Mary without sin? If so, was she purified at the moment of conception? If so, is this an assumption based on the character of Christ or found in scripture?

it is based on both
it was a teaching of the Early Church, there are verses in the Bible that back this up, but it is not clearly and definitively stated
Mary is "full of grace"
Jesus refers to her as "woman" many times
remember in Eden when God curses the Serpent? God says "I will put enmity between you and the woman"
now, enmity is a strong word, it means active opposition
but if someone is a "slave to sin" you can not have active opposition

What is the Catholic view of paedocommunion (bringing children to the Lord's Table)?

the Eastern Catholic Churches have this practice, the Latin Church does not

Do Catholics believe that true Christians can be found in any of the other denominations?

"we know where the Church is, not where it is not"
God knows His own

Explain the requirement/need/benefit of praying to saints over directly to God.

they are our friends, our brothers and sisters in Christ
just as you might ask a friend on earth to pray for you, we ask our friends on earth, and our friends in heaven to pray for us
this is NEVER meant to replace prayer to God, just as you asking your friends on earth to pray for you does not replace personal prayer and worship

 

[GillDouglas]

Thank you all, my Catholic brothers and sisters, for taking time to answer these difficult questions. I will continue to study and pray for understanding on these topics. May God bless each one of you and yours.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Looking for some civil discussion between Protestants and the Old Church. I have a few questions I am hoping to get answered. I was not raised in the church, and only recently (4 years ago) came to know Christ. I've only attended PCA (Presbyterian Church of America) since then, and know very little of other denominations especially Catholic. Help me understand the Catholic ways!

Is the authority of the Roman Catholic Pope threatened by the authority of the Bible? Why or why not?

The Pope is the one who pronounced what scriptures were... so how could the One put in Peter's chair who thru Tradition and the Holy Spirit - be in error or against that which only He could accept?

Why do Protestants use the 'authority' of the Pope by trusting his choice of canon - is more the question.

Who is the supreme leader of the Church: Christ or the Pope?

The Pope is the visible place of Jesus on earth.
Christ is the cornerstone and the chair of Peter is the foundation.
You cannot start a building without a cornerstone - nor can you build without the foundation.
So the two are equally important for a sound structure.

The chair of Peter remains the teacher - the shepherd that Jesus told Peter to be in His absence.
Do you think He meant only Peter?

Did you know Jesus quoted Jewish tradition without it being in the OT?
The chair o Moses existed only thru the oral knowledge that ppl had a leader to continue where Moses left off.
The same is with the chair of Peter spoken of in the earlier recordings of the church.

To follow another - Calvin for instance - is giving him the exact same spot as the Pope - because he still led ppl. In error - but he still gained a gathering who trusted him...so he put himself in his own seat of authority. Irony when you think about it.

Does the Pope (and the Catholic church) promote a works-based or faith-based salvation?

Youy cannot have one without the other.
Didnt Paul say you can have faith to move mountains but without love your empty?
What makes you believe faith is all you need?
St Jude or James [im so sleepy atm] said without works - that faith is dead.
Why? Because it is in works we show the love Paul spoke about.

So you just cannot have one without the other. You just cant.
Thats two apostles telling you faith alone - it just doesnt work without works.

Do all Catholic churches fall under the Roman Catholic church?

Yes... Eastern or Western - the head of the Church is the Pope.
Now culture is another matter altogether.

Where can I find the institution of the additional five sacraments by Jesus? In addition, can sins be forgiven without confessing to men?

Jesus breathed the Spirit on the apostles and said to go out and forgive or HOLD BOUND sins - and the same would hold in Heaven.
NOT the same thing as telling Peter to forgive sins against himself personally that he has to forgive 7 x 70.
You would think the two would cancel the other.
Breathing the Spirit on them alone was the beginning of His ministry for them...not all.
See the distinct difference?

The sacraments are all thru scriptures [NT] like when it was said - you received the baptism of the Lord - now i lay my hands on you to recieve the Holy Spirit... aka Confirmation.
Baptism - Jesus was baptized..and He said go out and do this.
Marriage - obvious.
Ordinations - examples - Judes was replaced - Paul was to go them to be accepted with them - Timothy was a Bishop...etc
Last Rites - its in there.

Im hald a sleep and have to do laundry so this is just keeping me awake til i go back to work. :/

Does the Catholic church still use the Latin Vulgate of Jerome?

Yes - www.drbo.org

Was Mary without sin? If so, was she purified at the moment of conception? If so, is this an assumption based on the character of Christ or found in scripture?

She was foretold - in Gensis 6.
Yes she was to remain sinless and it was the promise of her sinlessness that helped Jesus overcome His own fears to allow the Passion and death.
She was pre-Baptized by the promise of the Lord... and had He not had His passion and death He couldnt have kept such a promise for her or anyone.

Ppl forget - the Holy Spirit only assisted the prophets in the OT - it wasnt until Jesus died we could have the Spirit again - BUT Mary was already full of grace but she didnt prophecy too much. Well - she did - but not of the coming.
She did say all shall call her Blessed.
Pronounced Bless-ed Not Blest.
It means venerable.

She was the New Eve - it took two - male and female to take us out of paradise - it took two male and female to bring us back.
Just as God created Adam and Eve spotless - He desired the same essence to have 2 sinless to bring us back.

If Mary was left sinful - she could not be equal to Eve - and women wouldnt have an equal reward.But we know women do...see other scriptures.

What is the Catholic view of paedocommunion (bringing children to the Lord's Table)?

The East does that...in infancy [some anyway] when baptized.

Do Catholics believe that true Christians can be found in any of the other denominations?

They really dont have a choice but be part of the Church since baptism is equal to all.
And they unknowingly conform to the Pope's teaching that scriptures are true and undeniably correct.

ya know - had not the Spirit led the Pope even back in the 300's - you couldnt possibly know if the scriptures were real or not.
irony - i tell you.

But those who rebuke her - we dont know what happens to them after life.
Its true not all can enter Heaven as some will say 'Lord, Lord'...
The Church allows for invincible ignorance.
IE - if you truly dont know due to the many years where folks did know better - they accept ppl are saved.
BUT if you are shown the truth and still deny it - well, it could be bad. We just dont know...where those souls go.

What is the Catholic stance on the sovereignty of God (all things, some, etc)?

The only thing God cannot do is go against Himself.
He cannot deny Himself - see Timothy.
Etc

Explain the requirement/need/benefit of praying to saints over directly to God.

Saints are just like the living on earth.
We ask one another to petition the Lord - so too can they petition the Lord.
Their prayers are like incense at the altar of Heaven.

Lets not forget - the book of life exists in heaven til the end of time - and NO MAN can see it. Obviously men are in heaven...and obviously they are concerned with us.

Cloud of witnesses above us.
And Saints in heaven will judge all nations.

Its not like they are ignorant of the earth or anything.

 

[Anhelyna]

It dawns on me that perhaps a further comment on the Communing of children might be helpful.

In the East [ Catholic and Orthodox , and very probably the Oriental Catholics and Orthodox ] we do Commune our children. Many Latin Catholics and Protestants feel that this is wrong - a child needs to be aware of Whom he /she is Receiving , and also needs to be aware of the difference between right and wrong.

Putting it very very simply , [and I used this illustration recently as my Ukrainian Priest was talking with a Latin Catholic man who has started coming to our Mission, and getting himself into deep water because his English was just not up to the job] we give babies and children physical food for their physical growth - yes ?

We believe very strongly that we should also give our young children Spiritual Food - the Body and most Precious Blood of Our Lord God and Saviour , Jesus Christ for their Spiritual Growth. Babies are Communed with a Drop of the Most Precious Blood until their parents and priest decide they are ready , physically , to Receive His Body [ remember we use leavened bread ]

 

[WarriorAngel]

It dawns on me that perhaps a further comment on the Communing of children might be helpful.

In the East [ Catholic and Orthodox , and very probably the Oriental Catholics and Orthodox ] we do Commune our children. Many Latin Catholics and Protestants feel that this is wrong - a child needs to be aware of Whom he /she is Receiving , and also needs to be aware of the difference between right and wrong.

Putting it very very simply , [and I used this illustration recently as my Ukrainian Priest was talking with a Latin Catholic man who has started coming to our Mission, and getting himself into deep water because his English was just not up to the job] we give babies and children physical food for their physical growth - yes ?

We believe very strongly that we should also give our young children Spiritual Food - the Body and most Precious Blood of Our Lord God and Saviour , Jesus Christ for their Spiritual Growth. Babies are Communed with a Drop of the Most Precious Blood until their parents and priest decide they are ready , physically , to Receive His Body [ remember we use leavened bread ]

I just want to suggest....
I am not sure many Latin Rite Catholics feel that way - most dont even know the East exists or their practices.
As for having an opinion myself - it doesnt matter to me, i find culture being poignant in all things related to how we practice which doesnt undermine any Rite or the other.

 

[Dialogist]

[-

 

[WarriorAngel]

You equate "Old Church" with the Roman Catholic Church, but not the Eastern Orthodox Church. Just curious why.

Because it is OBOB.

Not being nit picky - but why come in here to subtly proselytize?

 

[Dialogist]

Because it is OBOB.

Not being nit picky - but why come in here to subtly proselytize?

I didn't see at first that the question was posed to an RC forum. I read it in the New Posts section. I deleted my comment.

 

[Anhelyna]

I just want to suggest....
I am not sure many Latin Rite Catholics feel that way - most dont even know the East exists or their practices.
As for having an opinion myself - it doesnt matter to me, i find culture being poignant in all things related to how we practice which doesnt undermine any Rite or the other.

This - the fact that many people do not know we exist - is exactly why I thought I should explain further.

We in the East, are well aware that folk don't understand WHY we do some of the things we do , WHY we think the way we do, WHY our Churches are different in appearance to yours.

What does annoy us is when we are told [ and it does happen ] that we are not 'proper' Catholics and we are wrong to Commune our little ones.

A little education is never wasted

 

[GillDouglas]

If you believe this then you are not a child of God, but His slave; which I guess makes you a Muslim. Just kidding on that part, but that is what Muslims do believe. We are called to be children of God. Children are not slaves, even though we as parents may treat them as such when they are young. But as that child grows into adulthood, his/her freedom grows. As adults we are completely free and can do whatever we want. Slaves on the other hand are always slaves, and die as slaves; unless made free. With us human beings we were slaves, slaves to sin. Christ through His redemptive act, made us free.

Remember that God wants children not slaves. Children have freedom, especially when they mature to adulthood; slaves do not.

We have and always will be servants/slaves. "For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:20-23

 

[mark46]

Martin Luther, the Catholic monk turned founding champion of Protestantism, proclaimed the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, which means that the Bible is the final authority.
It is a universal doctrine among all non-catholic churches.

This is a fine thread when a non-Catholic came to this board to question what Catholics believe.

A non-Catholic is NOT allowed to answer or evaluate our answers. This is a Catholic board.

 

[mark46]

You have received solid explanations from many here. Please fell free to come here at any time to ask questions or for clarifications.

Looking for some civil discussion between Protestants and the Old Church. I have a few questions I am hoping to get answered. I was not raised in the church, and only recently (4 years ago) came to know Christ. I've only attended PCA (Presbyterian Church of America) since then, and know very little of other denominations especially Catholic. Help me understand the Catholic ways!

Is the authority of the Roman Catholic Pope threatened by the authority of the Bible? Why or why not?

Who is the supreme leader of the Church: Christ or the Pope?

Does the Pope (and the Catholic church) promote a works-based or faith-based salvation?

Do all Catholic churches fall under the Roman Catholic church?

Where can I find the institution of the additional five sacraments by Jesus? In addition, can sins be forgiven without confessing to men?

Does the Catholic church still use the Latin Vulgate of Jerome?

Was Mary without sin? If so, was she purified at the moment of conception? If so, is this an assumption based on the character of Christ or found in scripture?

What is the Catholic view of paedocommunion (bringing children to the Lord's Table)?

Do Catholics believe that true Christians can be found in any of the other denominations?

What is the Catholic stance on the sovereignty of God (all things, some, etc)?

Explain the requirement/need/benefit of praying to saints over directly to God.

 

[thecolorsblend]

In my honest opinion, if I were to believe that works were necessary for salvation I would say that works comes from faith, not the other way around.

The thing is that even Protestants believe in salvation by works. It's a matter of degree. Even if they say all you need to do is "believe", well, believe is still a verb. It's an action. It's something you do. A work, one might say.

The fact is the New Testament attaches certain actions to salvation. "Do this and you will have new life/be born again/be saved/etc". Take baptism, for example.

"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."
- St. Mark 16:16

Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.
- 1 St. Peter 3:21-22

"And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name."
- Acts 22:16

y the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.
- Titus 3:5-7

Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him." And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation." So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
- Acts 2:37-41

Baptism is a salvific act and, if Scripture is to be read literally, is non-negotiable for salvation.

 

[GillDouglas]

You have received solid explanations from many here. Please fell free to come here at any time to ask questions or for clarifications.

I appreciate all the input provided. I can agree with some, but not all of what I've been told.

The thing is that even Protestants believe in salvation by works. It's a matter of degree. Even if they say all you need to do is "believe", well, believe is still a verb. It's an action. It's something you do. A work, one might say.

The fact is the New Testament attaches certain actions to salvation. "Do this and you will have new life/be born again/be saved/etc". Take baptism, for example.

"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."
- St. Mark 16:16

Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.
- 1 St. Peter 3:21-22

"And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name."
- Acts 22:16

y the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.
- Titus 3:5-7

Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him." And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation." So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
- Acts 2:37-41

Baptism is a salvific act and, if Scripture is to be read literally, is non-negotiable for salvation.

I understand what you are saying here, and I greatly appreciate your insight. However, my understanding and most reformed Christians would agree is that faith and good works are the fruits and proof, not the basis for salvation. Christ's atonement is sufficient, and there is nothing more we can add to it. Any 'saving act' such a baptism or communion is meant for the continued spiritual growth or sanctification of the individual. These were never meant for a saving act, there are an outward expression of inward commitment to the Lord.

 

[thecolorsblend]

It isn't a matter of "adding" to salvation. It's about accepting it. You are correct in saying there is nothing we can do to improve upon Our Lord's perfection. But there is a cooperative dimension to following Our Lord that the reformed groups tend not to acknowledge. I'm not somehow "earning" salvation; the sacraments are the means of receiving salvation.

 

[mark46]

[QUOTE="GillDouglas, post: 68691477, member: 344395"
I understand what you are saying here, and I greatly appreciate your insight. However, my understanding and most reformed Christians would agree is that faith and good works are the fruits and proof, not the basis for salvation. Christ's atonement is sufficient, and there is nothing more we can add to it. Any 'saving act' such a baptism or communion is meant for the continued spiritual growth or sanctification of the individual. These were never meant for a saving act, there are an outward expression of inward commitment to the Lord.[/QUOTE]

You might find this discussion of atonement interesting. I would note that hedrick is Reformed as does exceedingly well in discussing the differences between Reformed and Catholic understandings.
http://www.christianforums.com/forums/traditional-theology.1149/page-3
You might want to come over to Traditional Theology for more discussion.

With regard to sacraments, for Catholics, they are outward signs of God's Grace.

With regard to works or actions of men that are necessary, we are often confused by the different ways words are used. We all agree that we are saved by God's Grace, and that Grace is sufficient. We all accept the Scriptures that teach that this Grace is THROUGH faith in Christ Jesus. Some call the act of walking down the aisle to be "works", or faith itself to be a work.

If we don't accept double predestination (reject by PCA in 1903 I believe), we each have a choice in whether we accept God's free gift of Grace. Otherwise, all would be born predestined to heaven or hell with no choice.

Many have fought for almost 500 years over the different understandings of what is needed for salvation. As Lutherans and Catholic attested in their Joint Declaration of 1986 (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p..._31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html),
the issue was primarily one of misunderstanding. For example, Protestants seem "clear" in separating out three components of salvation. I was saved (justification), I am being saved (sanctification) and I will be saved (glorification). When folks talk about "being saved" (a question with little meaning for Catholics), Protestants mean when we have accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior, that is, whether we have been justified or saved.

 

[MoonlessNight]

I understand what you are saying here, and I greatly appreciate your insight. However, my understanding and most reformed Christians would agree is that faith and good works are the fruits and proof, not the basis for salvation. Christ's atonement is sufficient, and there is nothing more we can add to it. Any 'saving act' such a baptism or communion is meant for the continued spiritual growth or sanctification of the individual. These were never meant for a saving act, there are an outward expression of inward commitment to the Lord.

Note that unless all are saved (by which I mean that all will achieve the glory of Heaven), then there must be some reason why some are saved and some are not. Christ died for all people, so it is not that He only chose to save some but not others. If what separates the saved from the damned is a commitment towards God and an acceptance of His grace, then they are distinguished from the damned by a "saving act," though an internal act rather than an external one. Yet Jesus made clear that he who looks upon a woman with lust in his heart has sinned, even though his only sinful action was internal. So God does know and consider internal actions as well as external actions.

If you allow that people can better understand and commit themselves to God through internal actions, then it is also possible for them to do so through external actions.

That is not to say that any of these actions (external or internal) actual are the cause of one's salvation. Christ's death and resurrection are the cause. But these actions can aid or hinder this saving grace, since they can turn us toward or away from God. You yourself have noted that people can act in concern with the will of God, since you speak of "spiritual growth" and "sanctification," but if it was impossible to grow in the grace of God, there would be no process of coming to know Him, you would be either saved or damned with no gradation of being more holy or more spiritually developed.

 

[mark46]

Note that unless all are saved (by which I mean that all will achieve the glory of Heaven), then there must be some reason why some are saved and some are not. Christ died for all people, so it is not that He only chose to save some but not others. If what separates the saved from the damned is a commitment towards God and an acceptance of His grace, then they are distinguished from the damned by a "saving act," though an internal act rather than an external one. Yet Jesus made clear that he who looks upon a woman with lust in his heart has sinned, even though his only sinful action was internal. So God does know and consider internal actions as well as external actions.

If you allow that people can better understand and commit themselves to God through internal actions, then it is also possible for them to do so through external actions.

That is not to say that any of these actions (external or internal) actual are the cause of one's salvation. Christ's death and resurrection are the cause. But these actions can aid or hinder this saving grace, since they can turn us toward or away from God. You yourself have noted that people can act in concern with the will of God, since you speak of "spiritual growth" and "sanctification," but if it was impossible to grow in the grace of God, there would be no process of coming to know Him, you would be either saved or damned with no gradation of being more holy or more spiritually developed.

For almost all us, we believe that at our death, "we will either be saved or damned with no gradation" Obviously, I am not including the saints of the Church. So, at any point in our life, salvation (or justification) is indeed an either-or proposition (with jesus making the real choice). I believe that the vast majority of us believe that we are made more and more conformed to Jesus as we act to do his will, sac day of our life. Different traditions have different names for this process. You call it being more holy. Some call it sanctification. Some call it divination. Some call it theosis. Some call the process spiritual growth. And yes, some call the process justification (using the term differently than others).

 

[MoonlessNight]

For almost all us, we believe that at our death, "we will either be saved or damned with no gradation" Obviously, I am not including the saints of the Church. So, at any point in our life, salvation (or justification) is indeed an either-or proposition (with jesus making the real choice). I believe that the vast majority of us believe that we are made more and more conformed to Jesus as we act to do his will, sac day of our life. Different traditions have different names for this process. You call it being more holy. Some call it sanctification. Some call it divination. Some call it theosis. Some call the process spiritual growth. And yes, some call the process justification (using the term differently than others).

It is true that ultimately that everyone is put into one of the two categories, but there are also gradations within those categories (just as every real number is either positive or non-positive (to include 0), but within those sets some are further away from 0 and some are closer).

I am trying to express two things (and probably doing it poorly):

1.) Having salvation (as an either-or proposition) tied to some action (either internal or external) does not detract from the glory of God, and is necessary unless one holds to universalism or predestination. Therefore having the sacraments tied to salvation (at least in the ordinary case) does not detract from the glory of God.

2.) Even given that one is saved, it is possible to improve one's holiness and relationship to God. Therefore even when one is in a state of grace the sacraments are productive and desirable.

I realize in retrospect that speaking of salvation in two ways in the same post led to more obfuscation than clarity.