Questions for TEs

[mhess13]

If evolution is true AND if God's word is true, can you produce any scripture whatsoever to show that God used evolution as His method of creation???

Why would God choose to not reveal the vital "truth of evolution" to the early church or even to the reformers? It's kind of an important topic, don't you think?

Why is it that the church, even the catholic (which I take issue with) never believed in evolution until mainstream "science" accepted it as fact?

Would you at least agree that if evolution is true, then God surely deceived us with his word? Read the creation account, it is the opposite of what evolutionary theory would tell us.

Would you agree that it at least would appear to a casual neutral observer that Christians have take MAN's view of origins and tossed out the Bible?

 

[rmwilliamsll]

let's see.

an argument from silence.

the Scriptures don't mention quarks, nor does it mention atomic theory.
God however not only knows about these things but made them.
but the human writers certainly knew nothing about it and believed something very different.

the Scriptures don't mention DNA nor codons, nor pseudogenes, not a word about genetics. In fact, they thought heredity was transmitted through the blood. But God doesn't because He created genetics and knows all about it.

Scripture doesn't mention the Chinese, nor native Americans, nor australian aboriginals. But would you believe that they existed at the same time as the Scriptures were being written and not a word? Do you think God knew they were there? But the human writers thought what they knew as the known earth was the WHOLE world. and again those people were wrong.


arguments from silence. hard to use to persuade.
since it is not mentioned, maybe it isn't all that vital for faith, like quarks, codons and aboriginals.

 

[Ron21647]

I am pretty sure I got this link from mwilliamsll. It explains it better than I can.

http://www.ualberta.ca/%7Edlamoure/3EvoCr.htm

Ron

 

[herev]

If evolution is true AND if God's word is true, can you produce any scripture whatsoever to show that God used evolution as His method of creation???

Why would God choose to not reveal the vital "truth of evolution" to the early church or even to the reformers? It's kind of an important topic, don't you think?

No, there was no understanding of evolution when the Bible was written. It doesn't mention DNA, either, but that is how God encoded who we are as individuals--kinda important topic, don't you think?

Why is it that the church, even the catholic (which I take issue with) never believed in evolution until mainstream "science" accepted it as fact?

Same answer, there was no understanding of it earlier, and when people questioned the once held sacred ideas of the Bible, they were not treated well--think Galileo and the earth as the center of the universe, for starters

Would you at least agree that if evolution is true, then God surely deceived us with his word? Read the creation account, it is the opposite of what evolutionary theory would tell us.

no, I would not--I do not think Jesus was misleading us when He used parables to teach--they may not have been factual, but they contained a truth that he wanted us to understand. When we have seen Jesus, we have seen God--JEsus and the Father are one--why is so difficult to accept just the possibility that God knew that Moses (or whoever wrote Genesis 1,2,3,4) would not understand evolution, so He taught in a parable?

Would you agree that it at least would appear to a casual neutral observer that Christians have take MAN's view of origins and tossed out the Bible?

I can see where some might think that, but they think the same thing when we no longer stone disobedient children and most are not upset about that.

 

[El Guapo 2]

Along the lines of what MrWilliams and Ron stated, I think your question is somewhat... off the mark I guess.

Would you get frustrated opening up a book by C.S. Lewis to find that he never once mentions vaccinations!? I mean, the simple, relatively cheap act of getting vaccinated saves millions of lives every year, how could he not include this? Surely he isn't inconsiderate of human life? Or would you not be looking for anything on vaccinations or science in general at all? C.S. Lewis writes to speak to our spiritual lives and he, like all the other writers in this world that have ever written anything on spirituality, is human and fallable and probably much more prone to get side tracked by earthly, insignificant things like science and our lives here on this planet than God is. God, however, being the perfect guy that He is, realizes that everything, (now I'll write it in all caps for emphasis) EVERYTHING in this world is trivial when it comes to our spiritual lives. Why then would He waste His time talking about science? He didn't go out and directly condemn slavery. He didn't add two or three simple sentences telling people if they contracted cowpox they would be protected from small pox. He didn't convey hundreds of concepts that could have improved and saved billions of lives.

I don't mean to sound arrogant though I imagine I will, but being surprised that the Bible doesn't talk about science in light of the spiritual truths it spent hundreds of pages on, and which we still don't come close to fully comprehending, is rather silly. I think you've temporarily lost track of the purpose of it all.

 

[herev]

Along the lines of what MrWilliams and Ron stated, I think your question is somewhat... off the mark I guess.

Would you get frustrated opening up a book by C.S. Lewis to find that he never once mentions vaccinations!? I mean, the simple, relatively cheap act of getting vaccinated saves millions of lives every year, how could he not include this? Surely he isn't inconsiderate of human life? Or would you not be looking for anything on vaccinations or science in general at all? C.S. Lewis writes to speak to our spiritual lives and he, like all the other writers in this world that have ever written anything on spirituality, is human and fallable and probably much more prone to get side tracked by earthly, insignificant things like science and our lives here on this planet than God is. God, however, being the perfect guy that He is, realizes that everything, (now I'll write it in all caps for emphasis) EVERYTHING in this world is trivial when it comes to our spiritual lives. Why then would He waste His time talking about science? He didn't go out and directly condemn slavery. He didn't add two or three simple sentences telling people if they contracted cowpox they would be protected from small pox. He didn't convey hundreds of concepts that could have improved and saved billions of lives.

I don't mean to sound arrogant though I imagine I will, but being surprised that the Bible doesn't talk about science in light of the spiritual truths it spent hundreds of pages on, and which we still don't come close to fully comprehending, is rather silly. I think you've temporarily lost track of the purpose of it all.

wow, I kinda wish I'd said that--well said

 

[seebs]

If evolution is true AND if God's word is true, can you produce any scripture whatsoever to show that God used evolution as His method of creation???

I can't produce anything utterly unequivocal, but I can find a lot of supporting evidence.

Why would God choose to not reveal the vital "truth of evolution" to the early church or even to the reformers? It's kind of an important topic, don't you think?

No, I don't. I think it's totally and completely irrelevant to any question of faith or morals. It makes no difference at all whether some guy ten thousand years ago was a little shorter and hairier than me. What matters is that, right now, today, I am a sinner and there is salvation for me.

Why is it that the church, even the catholic (which I take issue with) never believed in evolution until mainstream "science" accepted it as fact?

For the same reason that they never believed that each object attracts every other object with force proportional to the product of their masses until science said so.

Would you at least agree that if evolution is true, then God surely deceived us with his word? Read the creation account, it is the opposite of what evolutionary theory would tell us.

No, I wouldn't at all. I would say that, if evolution is true, then the people who saw spiritual meaning and symbolism in the accounts of Creation were right all along, and the brief fad of reducing them to history with no deeper meanings whatsoever will be revealed for what it is; an empty fad.

Would you agree that it at least would appear to a casual neutral observer that Christians have take MAN's view of origins and tossed out the Bible?

No. I think a casual neutral observer would think that MAN's view is the one that tries to take a beautiful piece of poetry which tells us who we are and why it matters into the story of a week of really weird stuff happening.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

If evolution is true AND if God's word is true, can you produce any scripture whatsoever to show that God used evolution as His method of creation???

Why would God choose to not reveal the vital "truth of evolution" to the early church or even to the reformers? It's kind of an important topic, don't you think?

Why is it that the church, even the catholic (which I take issue with) never believed in evolution until mainstream "science" accepted it as fact?

Would you at least agree that if evolution is true, then God surely deceived us with his word? Read the creation account, it is the opposite of what evolutionary theory would tell us.

Would you agree that it at least would appear to a casual neutral observer that Christians have take MAN's view of origins and tossed out the Bible?

It isn't vital. Evolution has little to with salvation except when people try to make the false dilemma of accepting God or accepting evolution.

I see no need to find biblical support for evolution. I don't need biblical support for Newton's laws of motion, atomic theory, plate tetonics, Boyle's law, etc.

The problem is that you are reading Genesis as the wrong type of literature.

 

[lucaspa]

Would you at least agree that if evolution is true, then God surely deceived us with his word? Read the creation account, it is the opposite of what evolutionary theory would tell us.

Absolutely not. I would agree that Biblical literalism is trying to deceive us by saying that the literal reading is the way to read it.

Mhess, there is not "the" creation account in Genesis, there are 3.
1. Genesis 1:1 - Genesis 2:4a
2. Genesis 2:4b - 4:1
3. Genesis 6:1-10

They contradict each other on several points. This was recognized in the early 1700s. So, that there are 3 contradictory creation accounts is a neon sign in the text that they are not to be read literally. How literalism overlooks this clear message from God is beyond me.

Would you agree that it at least would appear to a casual neutral observer that Christians have take MAN's view of origins and tossed out the Bible?

Absolutely not. To agree to this would mean that you have to say God did not create! Christianity has long recognized that God wrote two books.

"the great book ... of created things. Look above you; look below you; read it, note it." St. Augustine, Sermon 126 in Corpus Christianorum
"duplex cognito" John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, ed by John T. McNeil, 1.2.1, 1960.
"Man learns from two books: the universe for the human study of things created by God; and the Bible, for the study of God's superior will and truth. One belongs to reason, the other to faith. Between them there is no clash." Pope Pius Xii, Address to the Pontifical Academy of Science, Dec. 3, 1939.

Look at that. St. Augustine, John Calvin, and Pope Pius XII. Representing the early Chruch, a founder of the Reformed movement, and modern Catholicism. ALL aspects of Christianity recognizes that God created. ONLY Fundamentalism creationism denies it.

So, the view of origins derived from the study of God's Creation must be God's view of origins.

The Bible never got "tossed out". Instead, Christians recognized that 19th-21st century "MAN's" interpretation of Genesis 1-11 was faulty. What is needed is to try to put ourselves in the place of the people of the time Genesis 1-11 was written and try to understand how they heard it. Instead of trying to impose a prideful Fundamentalist interpretation on the Bible.

 

[Freedom777]

If evolution is true AND if God's word is true, can you produce any scripture whatsoever to show that God used evolution as His method of creation???

Why would God choose to not reveal the vital "truth of evolution" to the early church or even to the reformers? It's kind of an important topic, don't you think?

Why is it that the church, even the catholic (which I take issue with) never believed in evolution until mainstream "science" accepted it as fact?

Would you at least agree that if evolution is true, then God surely deceived us with his word? Read the creation account, it is the opposite of what evolutionary theory would tell us.

Would you agree that it at least would appear to a casual neutral observer that Christians have take MAN's view of origins and tossed out the Bible?

I'm not a TE.I fully agree with you that evolution and the bible cannot be harminized.They both can't be true,it's one or the other.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

I'm not a TE.I fully agree with you that evolution and the bible cannot be harminized.They both can't be true,it's one or the other.

why?
present a single point argument that we can interact with.

interact with the issues. think about what the Scriptures require of us to believe and not just assent to the common herd.

 

[Freedom777]

I suspect that many TEs do not read the bible often,and if they do they interprete the bible through what the science of the day believes.The bible interprets the bible thats how we know the truth.But TEs let science interpret the bible.Placing mans wisdom (the worlds wisdom) above The Almighty's Wisdom.

 

[Freedom777]

why?
present a single point argument that we can interact with.

interact with the issues. think about what the Scriptures require of us to believe and not just assent to the common herd.

For starters the first 11 chapters of Genesis makes it very clear.But i realize you will not agree.

 

[Freedom777]

why?
present a single point argument that we can interact with.

interact with the issues. think about what the Scriptures require of us to believe and not just assent to the common herd.

For starters the first 11 chapters of Genesis makes that very clear although i realize you don't agree.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

Progressive revelation begins in Genesis, and is first cousin to evolutionary thinking. Even the most conservative YEC sees that Genesis Presents in shadows and archtyPes.

I suspect that many TEs do not read the bible often,and if they do they interprete the bible through what the science of the day believes.The bible interprets the bible thats how we know the truth.But TEs let science interpret the bible.Placing mans wisdom (the worlds wisdom) above The Almighty's Wisdom.

fundamentally this is an ad hominem remark. but the answer is that most TE have a much more sophisticated hermeneutic that do most YEC, more nuanced and often times more conscious. i for one have been through nearly 20 hermeneutic books over the last two years as i have studied these issues for myself.

the answer to your second comment is the metaphor of the two books of God.



sorry key P stuck

 

[mhess13]

For starters the first 11 chapters of Genesis makes that very clear although i realize you don't agree.

They don't have any scriptural support whatsoever and they know it. I'm looking for just one TE to at least admit that they believe MAN over the Bible. We all know that's what the issue is, but TEs just won't admit that they simply do not believe the word of God.

In the words of a progressive creationist from Wheaton college:
Pattle P.T. Pun states, "It is apparent that the most straightforward understanding of the Genesis record, without regard to all of the hermeneutical considerations suggested by science, is that God created heaven and earth in six solar days, that man was created in the sixth day, that death and chaos entered the world after the fall of Adam and Eve, that all of the fossils were the result of the catastrophic universal deluge which spared only Noah's family and the animals therewith." [Pattle P.T. Pun, "A Theology of Progressive Creationism," Journal of the American Scientific Affiliation, Vol. 39, No. 1 (Ipswich, MA: March 1987),

Yet he still believes "science" over the Bible. This is called willfully rejecting God's word when you know what it says but still side w/ man.

 

[Freedom777]

Progressive revelation begins in Genesis, and is first cousin to evolutionary thinking. Even the most conservative YEC sees that Genesis Presents in shadows and archtyPes.


sorry key P stuck

Don't understand.

 

[Freedom777]

They don't have any scriptural support whatsoever and they know it. I'm looking for just one TE to at least admit that they believe MAN over the Bible. We all know that's what the issue is, but TEs just won't admit that they simply do not believe the word of God.

In the words of a progressive creationist from Wheaton college:
Pattle P.T. Pun states, "It is apparent that the most straightforward understanding of the Genesis record, without regard to all of the hermeneutical considerations suggested by science, is that God created heaven and earth in six solar days, that man was created in the sixth day, that death and chaos entered the world after the fall of Adam and Eve, that all of the fossils were the result of the catastrophic universal deluge which spared only Noah's family and the animals therewith." [Pattle P.T. Pun, "A Theology of Progressive Creationism," Journal of the American Scientific Affiliation, Vol. 39, No. 1 (Ipswich, MA: March 1987),

Yet he still believes "science" over the Bible. This is called willfully rejecting God's word when you know what it says but still side w/ man.

Saddly, this is the ugly truth for many. As was for me at one time.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

They don't have any scriptural support whatsoever and they know it. I'm looking for just one TE to at least admit that they believe MAN over the Bible. We all know that's what the issue is, but TEs just won't admit that they simply do not believe the word of God.

In the words of a progressive creationist from Wheaton college:
Pattle P.T. Pun states, "It is apparent that the most straightforward understanding of the Genesis record, without regard to all of the hermeneutical considerations suggested by science, is that God created heaven and earth in six solar days, that man was created in the sixth day, that death and chaos entered the world after the fall of Adam and Eve, that all of the fossils were the result of the catastrophic universal deluge which spared only Noah's family and the animals therewith." [Pattle P.T. Pun, "A Theology of Progressive Creationism," Journal of the American Scientific Affiliation, Vol. 39, No. 1 (Ipswich, MA: March 1987),

Yet he still believes "science" over the Bible. This is called willfully rejecting God's word when you know what it says but still side w/ man.

the most straightforward understanding of
"this is my body"
is transubstantiation. and i don't believe God intends for me to understand it that way either.

for your information, the framework interpretation sees Gen 1 as talking about 6 24 hr days, it argues that it is NOT historical in order,but rather a literary framework to prove the Sabbath.


again FYI, i am TE and believe that the Bible is the infallible Word of God suitable, infallible in all matters of faith and practice. and so does Pattle Pun and his fellow prof at Calvin Howard Van Till, who is a very orthodox yet TE Christian. So saying that your opponents do not believe that the Scriptures are the word of God is not true. What they do not believe is the particular YEC interpretation of the Bible.

They don't have any scriptural support whatsoever and they know it.

again a baseless attack, read H. Van Till, H. Bloch, C. Hyers. their books evidence the deep interaction of a believing brother and the Word.

 

[herev]

I suspect that many TEs do not read the bible often,and if they do they interprete the bible through what the science of the day believes.The bible interprets the bible thats how we know the truth.But TEs let science interpret the bible.Placing mans wisdom (the worlds wisdom) above The Almighty's Wisdom.

I read the Bible and study daily--every single day, I don't study it through any lense but the Holy Spirit. I do study and read different sections of the Bible with different "eyes" though. some parts are clearly not to be taken literally--as containing facts--based on style, tradition, experience and reason.
your post is insulting, so I'm sure you didn't mean it that way.