Questions for Calvinists

[BT]

Good Day, BT

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Just so I get your understanding straight, In 2:4 "all men" is every single man reguardless. In 2:5 "men" are believers only? Not quite sure that this passage implicitly shows any thing with reguards to the "failure of men".

Peace to u,

Bill

Hi Bill,

Yes indeed verse four means all men. You see the great misunderstanding with this verse is that people confuse it (some would say twist it) to mean or say "It is God's will that all men are saved".. but that is not only, not what it says, it is also not what it means. There is an enormous difference between these two statements:

"It is God's will that all be saved"
"[God] who will to have all men saved"

verse 5 refers to men as in the plural of "man" or "person" as it is commonly used... (I mean it does not refer to men only.. but women as well).

This passage does not implicitly show the failure of men. If you take it in context and marry it up with the two judgements etc. you see that it is man's failure that causes judgement. He is guilty before God...

Peace

 

[BBAS 64]

Hi Bill,

Yes indeed verse four means all men. You see the great misunderstanding with this verse is that people confuse it (some would say twist it) to mean or say "It is God's will that all men are saved".. but that is not only, not what it says, it is also not what it means. There is an enormous difference between these two statements:

"It is God's will that all be saved"
"[God] who will to have all men saved"

verse 5 refers to men as in the plural of "man" or "person" as it is commonly used... (I mean it does not refer to men only.. but women as well).

This passage does not implicitly show the failure of men. If you take it in context and marry it up with the two judgements etc. you see that it is man's failure that causes judgement. He is guilty before God...

Peace

God day, BT

I will agree that there is a differance in those two staments, though not sure how huge it is "kinda got a mind cramp today" .

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


This what I do not understand if all men "people" means every sigle person what in the Bold and underlined would cause you to change the meaning of men "people" to believers only?

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[BT]

God day, BT

I will agree that there is a differance in those two staments, though not sure how huge it is "kinda got a mind cramp today" .

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


This what I do not understand if all men "people" means every sigle person what in the Bold and underlined would cause you to change the meaning of men "people" to believers only?

Peace to u,

Bill

Hey Bill,

The only thing that changes the second "men" to believers is that Christ does not mediate for those who are not believers. I think the hinge point is "mediator" in this case. Consider that Moses was also a "mediator" his position mediated between Israel and God (Israel being the "chosen" nation). Let me give you a dictionary definition of mediator:

American Tract Society Dictionary:

MEDIATOR
One who stands between two parties or persons as the organ of communication or the agent of reconciliation. So far as man is sensible of his own guilt and of the holiness and justice of God, he shrinks from any direct communication with a being he has so much reason to fear. Hence the disposition more or less prevalent in all ages and in all parts of the world, to interpose between the soul and its judge some person or thing most adapted to propitiate his favor - as a priestly order, an upright and devout man, or the smoke of sacrifices and the sweet savor of incense, Job 9:33. The Israelites evinced this feeling at the Mount Sinai, De 5:23-31; and God was pleased to constitute Moses a mediator between himself and them, to receive and transmit the law on the one had, and their vows of obedience on the other. In this capacity he acted on various other occasions, Ex 32:30-32; Nu 14:1-45; Ps 106:23; and was thus an agent and a type of Christ, Ga 3:19. The Messiah has been in all ages the only true Mediator between God and man; and without Him, God is inaccessible and a consuming fire, Joh 14:6; Ac 4:12. As the Angel of the covenant, Christ was the channel of all communications between heaven and earth in Old Testament days; and as the Mediator of the new covenant, he does all that is needful to provide for a perfect reconciliation between God and man. He consults the honor of God by appearing as our Advocate with the blood of atonement; and through his sympathizing love and the agency of the Holy Spirit, he disposes and enables us to return to God. The believing penitent is "accepted in the Beloved" - his person, his praises, and his prayers; and through the same Mediator alone he receives pardon, grace, and eternal life. In this high office Christ stands alone, because he alone is both God and man, 1Ti 2:5. To join Mary and the saints to him in his mediatorship, as the antichristian church of Rome does, implies that he is unable to accomplish his own peculiar work, Heb 8:6; 9:15; 12:24.